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How is Sony going to sell 4K TV's without 4K video games ?

post #1 of 46
Thread Starter 
Back when Sony was interested in selling 3D TV's, they began a huge push into 3D on the Playstation 3. While things didn't really work out in that regard, you'd think they'd want to do something similar with their 4K TV's. Movies in 4K will obviously be a bigger driver, but gaming is a close 2nd. Yet, the PS4 supposedly won't really be capable of doing 4K, at least not the action type games that gamers are looking for.

So, where does this leave Sony in regards to selling their TV's ? Do you think Sony could create another console in a couple of years that would be a special PS4 that is "upwardly" compatible with 4K ?

For example, maybe with a game like Uncharted 6, Naughty Dog could create the game to run on PS4's in 1080p, but there would also be a special version, that would work at 4K resolution on a specially enhanced PS4 that has 4k abilities? I know this almost seems like a crazy 32X or Sega CD scenario, so it might be pretty far fetched, but I'm just wondering how they are going to try to push these 4K TV's on the masses, without also being able to show off video games running in true 4K.
post #2 of 46
4K movies, 1080P 3D movies @48fps, and (down the line) 1080P 3D games @60 fps. None of those are possible on current 1080P HDTVs. I doubt there will be any 4K games though.
post #3 of 46
4K cameras is one thing that can help sell 4K TV. Their are already 4K cameras that are under $5,000 and they'll be more soon. Heck, we might even see 4K capable cellphones and tablets this year. If people can't get the footage to playback using a computer, then getting a PS4 will be an excellent choice. Even more important if the camera the person has records to 2160 60p and that's if the PS4's HDMI port handles the 2.0 specifications. I've read that the HDMI 2.0 could be ready this month and since the PS4 isn't shipping until November, it could get it. Still, the hardware could already be their and it just needs a firmware update.
post #4 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

4K movies, 1080P 3D movies @48fps, and (down the line) 1080P 3D games @60 fps. None of those are possible on current 1080P HDTVs. I doubt there will be any 4K games though.

They won't be needed IMO. I'm really unsure 99% of people will be able to tell the difference between a true 4k game, vs a true 1080p 60 game upscaled to 4K. Or even native at 1080p 60 for that matter onany sized screen or panel. If the 4k scalers are really great in the Sony UHDTV's...They will sell that sizzle a lot. A true 1080P 60 game or even 720P game upscaled to 4K and processed through a simple Darblet 5000 could easily make the need for a true 4k game moot for right now. Unless one planned to play on a 200" screen. Under that circumstance one may see a noticeable difference between a native 4k game vs 1080p 60. But I'm not so sure about native vs upscaled even at 200".
post #5 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

They won't be needed IMO. I'm really unsure 99% of people will be able to tell the difference between a true 4k game, vs a true 1080p 60 game upscaled to 4K. Or even native at 1080p 60 for that matter onany sized screen or panel. If the 4k scalers are really great in the Sony UHDTV's...They will sell that sizzle a lot. A true 1080P 60 game or even 720P game upscaled to 4K and processed through a simple Darblet 5000 could easily make the need for a true 4k game moot for right now. Unless one planned to play on a 200" screen. Under that circumstance one may see a noticeable difference between a native 4k game vs 1080p 60. But I'm not so sure about native vs upscaled even at 200".

Forget games, images period.

4K is well beyond perceptible resolutions for distance and TV size of the bulk of Americans. People are going to have to go much larger with their next round of TV purchases or sit a heck of a lot closer to their sets.

It makes sense for archiving purposes, and for home theaters and enthusiasts. But when Joe American can barely tell the difference of 720-1080; let alone DVD to BD quality...

What will drive adoption is price and the technology eventually just being the new standard. It's not going to sell like they want it to, as 4K is just a buzzword with little real world benefit in most consumers eyes, literally.
post #6 of 46
That's bull.

People can see the difference from an ipad 2 and an ipad retina.

People can see when a bars HD picture is on "zoom mode"

And yes I've seen 2 4k tvs, and the picture of the LG and sony are spectacular. You can see literally every star in the sky and every detail.
post #7 of 46
It all depends on the distance between the viewer and the display and the size of the screen. The average eyesight acuity can not discern the difference between 720P and 1080P on a 50" screen. No way they can tell the difference between 1080P and 4K under the same conditions. People will need a 70"+ screen in most living rooms to fully appreciate the difference, or just move the seats in really close.
post #8 of 46
Sony is doing you a favor - 4k is useless.
post #9 of 46

I was at best buy the other day, and the 4K TV playing the 4K demo reel really wasn't impressive at all. It only seemed marginally sharper, although it might just be the material they were playing. It didnt give me that gotta have it feeling.

 

The OLED on the other hand, blew me away despite the freakish curve. I've never seen blacks like that, even on a CRT...it helped a lot that the panel wasn't all that reflective. If I had $9000 burning a hole in my pocket I'd definitely pick one up.  

post #10 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

That's bull.

People can see the difference from an ipad 2 and an ipad retina.

The iPad 2 was 768 and the retina is 1536. So thats a jump from 720 to 1080 on a device that you hold at most 20 inches away. Of course you'll notice the difference.

4K will look awesome on projectors and on 80" displays in somewhat medium sized to small rooms. But you're mistaken that it'll show a difference on a 55" in 90% of peoples setups. Get close and sure, but not many people will be viewing at those distances.

Hell, the flat-screen selling factor for many is still so they can hang it way up on a wall like a damn picture frame and forever have neck pain.




There's good uses for it, but it doesn't really fit into most people's setups outside AVS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post


The OLED on the other hand, blew me away despite the freakish curve. I've never seen blacks like that, even on a CRT...it helped a lot that the panel wasn't all that reflective. If I had $9000 burning a hole in my pocket I'd definitely pick one up.

Yup. At least for me right now I'm more excited about better black levels and image fidelity, faster video processing and the like. 4K will be nice when I can finally build that 120" theater room sometime in the future, but thats a long ways away. And maybe never if I get married.

tongue.gif
post #11 of 46
I can confirm - get married and you'll settle for 60". frown.gif
post #12 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

I can confirm - get married and you'll settle for 60". frown.gif

Ya know, there are wives out there that buy their husband a projector setup... wink.gif
post #13 of 46
I guess I married the wrong woman.
post #14 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

That's bull.

People can see the difference from an ipad 2 and an ipad retina.

People can see when a bars HD picture is on "zoom mode"

And yes I've seen 2 4k tvs, and the picture of the LG and sony are spectacular. You can see literally every star in the sky and every detail.

These folks (CNET) disagree with your perspective on this. And they tested for it. In one corner was a 720P Plasma. In the other was a new blistering 4K display. No contest, right? The 720P Plasma won according to viewers hands down in their contest. That's not to say you or anyone else can't see a difference between different resolutions. The real question is does the difference actually make a difference? Especially a $5000-$20,000 difference. My checkbook says no way. And I have cruised by Paul's and actually viewed UHDTV image loops. They look awesome. But I bet those same image loops would look just as awesome if run on an optimized 10800p panel. Just my take on it.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57599449-221/budget-tv-resolution-rumble-720p-plasma-vs-4k-led-lcd/#!

Edit:
The comparison in the following article is relevant to what others like BD2003 are saying. It is OLED versus 4K comparison. And I really like the writer's comment that a 4k OLED may fare better in comparison.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57514352-221/4k-tv-vs-oled-tv/
Edited by barrelbelly - 9/2/13 at 11:01am
post #15 of 46
Still, not to say there isn't uses for it.

It's going to work well when we start moving to large display touch screens in some industry's. 4K is all about super large displays and/or getting in damn close.
post #16 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

I guess I married the wrong woman.

my wife is going to flag this post as offensive smile.gif
post #17 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Still, not to say there isn't uses for it.

It's going to work well when we start moving to large display touch screens in some industry's. 4K is all about super large displays and/or getting in damn close.

Tyrant:
I really think 4K may be a big deal in professional markets like large commercial signage...Photography and business meeting displays. And when combined with OLED it has the capability to deliver spot on accuracy and fidelity with high end professional PC/CAD monitors from 32"-47", The only advantage I see for the consumer markets is better 3D. But that is not very important on any mass market consumer radar. Especially in that huge 32"-47" size range. 3D tends to look super gimmicky in those sizes. So I agree with you that it will be very hard slogging in mass markets. But professional markets may be very lucrative for them. Unfortunately the relevancy for games & gamers could be restricted to trade shows...or...dare I say it again on a PPS thread...Oculus Rift & Augmented Reality.And maybe that is what Sony ultimately has in mind for it in PS4.
post #18 of 46
Agree there. Although a 4K OR would be upresed to 4K wince both next gen systems will never have the ability to send native rendered 4K signals due to the hardware.
post #19 of 46
My gym shows 720P content, and I can tell it's muddy from 60 feet away.
And yes, I've walked up right next to make sure it wasn't an upconverted 480p picture.
(and I was surprised the screens are Pioneer Kuros)
Maybe I have eagle eyes.
post #20 of 46
Sure, there will always be exceptions. But 20/20 vision resolves 1/60th of a degree of an arc; and there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's an objective measurement, and most people have vision worse than 20/20 (with the caveat the younger the better your vision).

I'd also point out to never underestimate the placebo effect. Just Knowing something is better, will make it subjectively seem better. Brand allegiance and the whole of advertising and marketing is pinned on that foundation. It's very hard for us humans and our human minds to look the other way from what feels right to us in our heads. Objectively looking at things is tougher for us until we actually do the objective tests ourselves.

Here's a good resource http://carltonbale.com/1080p-does-matter/

The best objective test you can do is use a 1 pixel wide native test pattern of black and white lines to see at what distance you can define the pattern. If you are close enough to see the pattern as very fine vertical stripes then you are resolving the image. If it just looks like a grey solid image then you cannot see the full resolution. Forget all the pretty wildlife 4K images and the guy talking into your ear about how better the expensive set is. A very simple test maybe surprise you (I'm a tad better than the chart above, which correlates to just better than 20/20).

So next time there's a 4K/1080P side by side test, make sure to have you thumb drive and 4K/1080P test patterns ready to go!


smile.gif
post #21 of 46
Sony sells 1080p TVs without (many) 1080p games. It is irrelevant.
post #22 of 46
I'm guessing the same way they sold 720p Plasmas 9 years ago...?
post #23 of 46
I'm sure 4K will do fine on its own, even if not a single shred of 4K content is ever made. It's a number that's easy to market. Doesn't matter whether or not your eye can see it.

A 10 retina iPad is 3-megapixels. It's a ton of resolution at a decent size...but when's the last time you saw a 3 megapixel camera in a phone? Nokia is pushing what, a 41MP camera in their latest phone? It's so far beyond what anyone needs, but it doesn't matter, because the number is bigger. First we had 120hz LCDs, then 240hz, then plasma started quoting 480hz and 600hz subfields. Even intel made a pretty awful chip in the pentium 4, but it still sold like crazy because it had high MHz ratings.

Outside of the AVS bubble, every product has that one number that defines its performance. Horsepower in cars. Watts in AVRs. DPI in Mice. MHz in CPUs. BTUs for air conditioners. Lumens for light bulbs.

Doesn't matter if its long ceased to be a rational measure, more = better. When it comes to marketing displays, resolution is king.
post #24 of 46
The Verizon commercials even tell you that more is better. smile.gif

The new HTC One (phone) only has a 2.1 MP camera. But it has some advantages over the 8 MP+ cameras in most phones.
post #25 of 46
I my opinion, 4K is the new 3D.
post #26 of 46
Thread Starter 
seems like you got to be 5 feet away from a 60 inch or bigger 4K set to see the difference. I've still yet to see a demo. I haven't been to a Best Buy or a Fry's in a long time.

Next time I'm in one of the those stores, I'm going to test various viewing distances and see what the real skinny is on it. I've heard conflicting things about how much resolution the human eye can resolve at various distances, and it's a bit debatable as to what fact and fiction is in this regard. I do have a 126 inch screen in the theater room, but I'm on a poor man's budget and won't be getting a 4K projector anytime in the next 4 years I would imagine. I normally buy projectors that are $1500.00 and under, and keep them about 5 years and then upgrade again. I'm definitely due for a an upgrade (still have 720p), but it's so hard to find a projector that fits all my needs, because I need both vertical and horizontal lens shift, among other things, and it's hard to find everything I want in my price range.
post #27 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tlalotoani View Post

I my opinion, 4K is the new 3D.

The content isn't there to support th need for a 4k TV. It will be a long, long time before the infrastructure is there to support it...especially as consumers move to more instant, streaming forms of media.
post #28 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

seems like you got to be 5 feet away from a 60 inch or bigger 4K set to see the difference. I've still yet to see a demo. I haven't been to a Best Buy or a Fry's in a long time.

Next time I'm in one of the those stores, I'm going to test various viewing distances and see what the real skinny is on it. I've heard conflicting things about how much resolution the human eye can resolve at various distances, and it's a bit debatable as to what fact and fiction is in this regard. I do have a 126 inch screen in the theater room, but I'm on a poor man's budget and won't be getting a 4K projector anytime in the next 4 years I would imagine. I normally buy projectors that are $1500.00 and under, and keep them about 5 years and then upgrade again. I'm definitely due for a an upgrade (still have 720p), but it's so hard to find a projector that fits all my needs, because I need both vertical and horizontal lens shift, among other things, and it's hard to find everything I want in my price range.

There will definitely be 4k projectors in your price range within the next 2-3 years IMO...as Sony and others turn the marketing/selling engines on full throttle. That is because 4K v OLED naturally bifurcate the market into big v small. Oculus Rift for example...is a technology that benefits optimally from both technologies. You should most definitely see all of the advantages of 4k with your 126" screen. And with a modest addttion of a $250 investment in Darbee Darblet you should capture a ton of the vividness and rich color saturation associated with Plasma/OLED. But that is a debate best left to those threads elsewhere in this forum.
post #29 of 46
Welp, here's a partial answer to the original question. 4K movie streaming from Sony is on the way...

Quote:
It’s hard to sell 4K television sets to people if they have little to watch on them. Sony hopes to break through that dilemma today with the introduction of Video Unlimited 4K, which it says is the only download service with Ultra HD movies and TV shows. It begins with about 70 full length feature films from Sony Pictures Entertainment and “other notable production houses” — with the library expected expand to pass 100 by year end — the company says. Customers can access TV shows including Breaking Bad, and movies such as Moneyball, Think Like A Man, Premium Rush, Ghostbusters, The Amazing Spider-Man, Funny Girl, and The Guns Of Navarone. Recent films This Is The End, After Earth and Elysium also will be available when they hit home video. A 24-hour rental for a TV show costs $3.99 while a movie goes for $7.99. Users can buy a movie for $29.99. Some titles will include UltraViolet streaming rights in HD or standard definition. The Ultra HD 4K format has about four times the resolution of an HDTV.
post #30 of 46
Wrong place.
Edited by Paulo Teixeira - 9/4/13 at 6:55pm
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