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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › 136 dB at 20 Hz? New Magico QSub..for the 1% of the 1%!
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136 dB at 20 Hz? New Magico QSub..for the 1% of the 1%! - Page 5

post #121 of 160
While I agree it is very unlikely there are significant changes to the Aura NRT woofers directly for sale, minor changes to coil and spider are possible, but would not make any major changes in excursion for this underhung design. If you do any research into Magico, you will see they do significant customization on drivers for their other models. Many of the classic 2ch hi-fi brands do just grab off the shelf parts, but in the subwoofer world that is much less common, and overall less common with better modeling/measuring tools and technical understanding possessed by product designers.

The above said, I have to take issue with this sweeping generalization:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Though I suppose you're right in that Magico could well have degraded the driver relative to the stock unit, by for example not using the copper-sleeved polepiece of the stock Aurasound NS18-992-4A and substituting an unplated pole.
+1. Manufacturers tend to lead you to believe that OEM drivers are superior to off the shelf. In most cases the opposite is the case. They buy OEM to save money, and that as often as not translates into a lesser driver, if anything. Perhaps a different paint job, or less expensive input terminals, sometimes different cones or coils. Eminence for one tests at least ten different versions of new drivers before picking one for the off the shelf model, and that's the one that they feel is the best overall performer of the bunch. The rest they offer as OEM options.

I'm friends and work with many driver designers at various suppliers, Eminence included. I think some sales guys spiked your kool-aid. rolleyes.gif

OEM's such as Eminence develop their off-the-shelf line of drivers to help generate OEM business with examples available, help offset development costs, and serve a niche of the market. Their OEM business is many multiples the scale of their Eminence branded products. The drivers they release as off-the-shelf tend to be reasonably versatile in parameters and abuse resistant, or optimized for the range of designs they feel are likely to be used. They are rarely the best for a specific design, but rather useful for many.

The more knowledgeable subwoofer and speaker designers work with OEMs using these off-the-shelf drivers as reference points to modify and best optimize for their specific design type and priorities. I've worked on many new products and product re-works where some changes that make sense for the specific application can make for 2-3dB of efficiency gain, response improvement or reliability improvements simply by selecting appropriate parts for the application rather than what was on the shelf. Cosmetic or connection detail also can be adjusted and often don't make significant cost differences but help fit with a product identity and/or work better for assembly of a production product vs. a one off project. Yes, buying 100, 250 or 500 pcs at a time enable such customizations and costs less than buying 12 pcs at a time from Parts Express which should be expected. IMO speaker and subwoofer designers not considering and evaluating customization of drivers for the intended use are leaving a lot of performance on the table. There are times a readily available driver makes perfect sense, but more times than not, those are budget decisions rather than performance choices.
post #122 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

wink.gif
I'm friends and work with many driver designers at various suppliers, Eminence included.
So do I. wink.gif
post #123 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Don't knock it if you can't afford it. I didn't realize we had 'know it alls' to police how strangers spend their money.

Pretty much. Introducing a product like this in the AVS DIY section is like tossing a seal into a shark tank.

The usual droolers always ready to tell you how "stupid" someone else is- who also just happened to stupidly earn enough money to make their expense nearly or totally insignificant.

Go figure.

James
post #124 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I don't think anyone's arguing that the numbers make sense. Nor are they particularly relevant.

The only thing 136dB at 20Hz will do is break things.

Well isn't that the whole point of subwoofers for 75% of the DIY crowd? Or are 8, 16, or 20 for "room smoothing and/or extension"?

Lmao, don't answer that.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 9/19/13 at 12:39pm
post #125 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Introducing a product like this in the AVS DIY section is like tossing a seal into a shark tank.
It's not in the DIY section.
post #126 of 160
^ ha ha, right you are. I came in off a link that was tied to DIY.

good one.

James
post #127 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

A nice sub, no doubt, but just think of the kind of system you could have custom designed for you for $36k. Give that money to Nathan Funk and tell him to make you something great.
Most average Joes that know better would do that, but there are those subphiles out there who's kids, kids will never have to work that will buy one just say hey, my subs can hit 136db's at @20hz. Who ever hit the powerball in S.C last would be an example of a potential QSub buyer.
post #128 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Thirty-Six Thousand Freaking Dollars.
Just get the 15" Carp, that one is much cheaper at $22K
post #129 of 160
Does an aluminum enclosure offer something better than say a well braced mdf or baltic birch or even baltic birch with a 1 inch slate wrapped all over ?
post #130 of 160
No. But it would be pretty cool.
post #131 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Does an aluminum enclosure offer something better than say a well braced mdf or baltic birch or even baltic birch with a 1 inch slate wrapped all over ?

Aluminum is clearly the logical choice for any outer worldly product with the capability of producing "internal" sound pressure levels of 175db. I mean, did you read the press release?

Quote:
Due to the enormous sound pressure buildup, the pliable walls of typical enclosures absorb a tremendous portion of the energy generated by the drivers, leading to distortion and massive group delay (smearing). The QSub can reach an internal sound pressure level of to 175dB - the equivalent of a commercial jet at takeoff - with less than 1% displacement of common enclosures.

Or, what Scott said here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

No. But it would be pretty cool.
post #132 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by qguy View Post

Does an aluminum enclosure offer something better than say a well braced mdf or baltic birch or even baltic birch with a 1 inch slate wrapped all over ?

Potentially, the ability to create interesting shapes. That's why the old Italian coachbuilders (Touring, Pinin Farina, Zagato, etc.) used aluminum.

But in simple plate stock assembled into a rectangle? Not really.
post #133 of 160
From CEDIA 2013 visitor:

"I listened to both movies and concert Blu-ray performances through the Magico / Constellation Audio system. No matter what audio was sent through this system the bass produced by the QSub-18s (two of them in the room) was like nothing I'v ever heard. I've never heard bass so clear yet so deep. There was no annoying deep rumble during explosions while watching movies. Rather the bass was incredibly controlled while it shook my clothing with displaced air. Keep in mind that this sub, like all Magico products, features a sealed enclosure. While watching Chris Botti and Katharine McPHee perform I've Got You Under My Skin the QSub-18 subwoofers appropriately disappeared until needed. The experience of hearing a QSub was unlike anything I've heard and I highly recommend......"
post #134 of 160
Kinda reviving a dead thread here but I just saw the price of these things for the first time....

HOLY COW!

Seriously if someone really thinks these are the best way to go they need to get their head checked at the door.

I have no doubt that they sounded good at CEDIA but that could be that they simply did a better job of setting them up than the guy next to them...

I would much rather spend my money on multiple subs for around the room and work on integrating them well for a few hours.
post #135 of 160
These stats looks like pure bs. In either case we are assuming we arent going to want to go deaf. Even if you had ears that couldnt be damaged, You would need a solid stone room in order for the vibrations not to rattle something.

Even If the stats are accurate, the sub2 is a much better price since you would need 2-4 subs to get even bass in most rooms.
post #136 of 160
RCF TTS56-A. <---- With 4 of them you will really get 115 dB at 20 Hz and 148 dB at 55 Hz on half space at 1 meter including power compression at full throttle.
post #137 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

These stats looks like pure bs. In either case we are assuming we arent going to want to go deaf. Even if you had ears that couldnt be damaged, You would need a solid stone room in order for the vibrations not to rattle something.

Even If the stats are accurate, the sub2 is a much better price since you would need 2-4 subs to get even bass in most rooms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemHDS View Post

RCF TTS56-A. <---- With 4 of them you will really get 115 dB at 20 Hz and 148 dB at 55 Hz on half space at 1 meter including power compression at full throttle.

Only the Magico could make either one of the above options seem to be a better choice.
post #138 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post


Only the Magico could make either one of the above options seem to be a better choice.

Lol true i guess, just seems odd that they are making these claims of ridiculous subwoofer power. Might as well go buy that rotary subwoofer speaker that moves air with a propeller. Buy yourself a couple of acres of land while youre at it so your neighbors arent pissed...
post #139 of 160
Not interested.
post #140 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemHDS View Post

RCF TTS56-A. <---- With 4 of them you will really get 115 dB at 20 Hz and 148 dB at 55 Hz on half space at 1 meter including power compression at full throttle.

nice output at 55 hz but that's nothing impressive at 20 hz :/
post #141 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemHDS View Post

RCF TTS56-A. <---- With 4 of them you will really get 115 dB at 20 Hz and 148 dB at 55 Hz on half space at 1 meter including power compression at full throttle.
Meh. 21" driver but only 13.5mm Xmax. How about one with 34mm? I have 4 of these.
post #142 of 160
RCF has got 2 x 21" drivers with 13,5 mm of Xmax. Totally radiation surface is about 4600 cm^2 multiplied by his Xmax it can move 6,2 liters of air at full power, but it cost 1/3 of Magico.

Magico has got 2 x 18" drivers with 34 mm of Xmax. Totally radiation surface is about 3300 cm^2 multiplied by his Xmax it can move 11,2 liters of air at full power, but it cost 3 times RCF.

So getting really 136 dB @ 20 Hz at 1 meters with only 11,2 liters of air is strongly impossible to reach without a horn loaded cabinet placed in a bunker.

It can only be into fantasious minds of commercial marketing wink.gif
post #143 of 160
Or one could go DIY and beat out the Magico for under $2K...give or take a couple hundred.
post #144 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemHDS View Post

RCF has got 2 x 21" drivers with 13,5 mm of Xmax. Totally radiation surface is about 4600 cm^2
Sd of the driver (from T/S in spec sheet) is 1730cm2, so x2 is 3460cm2
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemHDS View Post

multiplied by his Xmax it can move 6,2 liters of air at full power,
3460 x 1.35 = 4671cm3

FTW21 is 1640cm2 with an Xmax of 3.4cm = 4920cm3. There are also several builds around this forum that use 8 or more high Xmax 18" drivers but without the stupid aluminium enclosures so the Magico is simply an overpriced, underperforming bauble.
post #145 of 160
Awesome lookin subs! You can get much more than that though with a lot less $ rolleyes.gif
post #146 of 160
They have no reason to lie.... Maybe with some crazy extreme excursion?

Magico main speakers likely go down very low, so the user of these only needs 5hz to 35hz maybe?
post #147 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

They have no reason to lie....

post #148 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

They have no reason to lie....

They have no compulsion not to. Is this what is said in your field?
post #149 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

They have no reason to lie....
Are you seriously that naive? What about selling a story to people that probably don't know any better in the hope of boosting sales numbers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Maybe with some crazy extreme excursion?
The drivers and their linear excursion is known.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Magico main speakers likely go down very low, so the user of these only needs 5hz to 35hz maybe?
Where they cross to mains is irrelevant. Andy did the maths here and points out that it cannot possibly meet the 136dB spec, let alone at 1% THD. What Andy also surely knows but doesn't point out in that post is to produce the same SPL at 10Hz you need 4x the volume displacement, ie 4 of the same subs.

They can tell fibs all they like, but they can't get around the laws of physics.
post #150 of 160
wink.gif
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