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HDMI 2.0 Spec. Released - Page 2

post #31 of 146
it's funny that for lack of replacing a 4dollar hdmi cable, they would make us replace thousands in electronics, and still not have any futureproofing...

i've got more than 100ft of hdmi cables run through my house and i was fully expecting HDMI 2.0 was going to be a brand new cable and wasn't the least bit annoyed at that. and yet, i'm starting to feel like by trying to reuse old cables, they've come up with a temp solution that i don't really want to buy into. i don't really feel any better buying a 4k display with hdmi 2.0 than i did buying a 4k display before hdmi 2.0.

i don't know if that's really justified or not, just the way i feel at the moment from the limited information i've understood, haha. but i feel like it's time for a brand new cable. when HDMI was released it was capable of way more bandwidth than any video source required. i think we're do for something like that again. release a cable that's capable of carrying 3 simultaneous UHD signals at 120hz with at least 11.2 channels of HD audio for each one. that is something i'll feel futureproofed with, and would be willing to start replacing my gear with.

i guess the issue for me is that i don't want to replace everything every 1-2yrs. i like buying one very good product every year or two, and that means my whole system get refreshed every 5+ at least. i'm maybe due for a new receiver, but not if the hdmi 2.0 connectors will be obsolete 2yrs from now.
post #32 of 146
Get a new hobby. The industry is what it is and so is the HDMI forum. Take up baking. Seriously, Man. Its HDMI 2.0 and it does 4K and all this great audio stuff case you want to install a zillion channels in your HT and you can watch a who bunch of different video channels on one device. Its HDMI 2.0 and its the latest and greatest. Most don't need it over what they have. Its a tremendous selling tool and it does add a few useful things and so will the next revision.
post #33 of 146
Mark, do you think we will see a 4k blu ray type of media that will use hdmi 2.0? Everyone is complaining about 4:2:0, which could be 8 or 10 bit, correct?
post #34 of 146
Quote:
Mark, do you think we will see a 4k blu ray type of media that will use hdmi 2.0?

I hope so. But I don't expect to see one for a couple of years.
post #35 of 146
I just don't know. The vast majority of consumer will never have a clue as to the differences in 4:x:y or even be aware of sampling. Maybe bit length.


Will there be a 4K bluray standard. Its under study but it isn't exactly plowing ahead on a fast track. The studios don't want one. Obviously if one came out that could not be implemented through HDMI 2.0. there will quickly be a change to the HDMI standard. And it will all be politics between the companies. Ultimate quality has absolutely nothing to do with anything for the most part. We were lucky to get 4K 60 at10 bit. Politics dictated 4:2:0 and votes had to be bought to get this reduced from something better for 4K.
post #36 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Get a new hobby. The industry is what it is and so is the HDMI forum. Take up baking. Seriously, Man. Its HDMI 2.0 and it does 4K and all this great audio stuff case you want to install a zillion channels in your HT and you can watch a who bunch of different video channels on one device. Its HDMI 2.0 and its the latest and greatest. Most don't need it over what they have. Its a tremendous selling tool and it does add a few useful things and so will the next revision.

if this is towards me, it's unjustified imo. I was simply stating that this is not the next 'leap' forward and is rather a small improvement that i'm more than willing to skip over. since I don't have ANY access to any content whatsoever that would need hdmi2.0, and since there's almost no room for future improvements, it's not needed 'now', and it probably won't be 'the latest and greatest' later.
post #37 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I just don't know. The vast majority of consumer will never have a clue as to the differences in 4:x:y or even be aware of sampling. Maybe bit length.

consumers will know whatever marketing tells them. same reason 90% of ppl out there think edge-lit led's offer the pinnacle of display technology... tongue.gif
post #38 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

if this is towards me, it's unjustified imo. I was simply stating that this is not the next 'leap' forward and is rather a small improvement that i'm more than willing to skip over. since I don't have ANY access to any content whatsoever that would need hdmi2.0, and since there's almost no room for future improvements, it's not needed 'now', and it probably won't be 'the latest and greatest' later.

I tend to joke around a bit, really not a mean bone in my body. There are really many wrong turns taken by our industry. You can't let anything bother you. No body in the forum wanted to come out with a new standard that would cause a a consumer uprising about needing new cables.
post #39 of 146
Now here is what a HDMI plug should look like.......................cool.gif



http://www.neutrik.com/en/multimedia/multimedia-connectors/hdmi/
post #40 of 146
Close. It needs to be black not silver.
post #41 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Close. It needs to be black not silver.

Damn, you'r picky..................... biggrin.gif

post #42 of 146
Sorry. But I hold you to a higher standard due to your considerable expertise.
post #43 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I tend to joke around a bit, really not a mean bone in my body. There are really many wrong turns taken by our industry. You can't let anything bother you. No body in the forum wanted to come out with a new standard that would cause a a consumer uprising about needing new cables.

yeah i get that. and maybe this version of UHD will actually maintain for a decade or more and we won't need a new cable. more information and time may change my opinion, but i was REALLY looking forward to the death of hdmi. i hate hdmi so much wink.gif
post #44 of 146
Here's a better picture of what HDMI should be:)
post #45 of 146
Thread Starter 
I listened to today's web seminar on HDMI 2.0 conducted by DPL (testing lab for HDMI products) and CEPro. Unfortunately the briefing was focused on discussing how installers will need to deal with the increased bandwidth of HDMI 2.0 (i.e., 18 Gbps) and how there will be an increased need for active HDMI cables. There was an opinion expressed that today's passive high speed cables may be good up to perhaps 3 meters (i.e., 10 ft.), especially when heavier gauge conductors are used in the cable. A new generation of HDMI equalizer chips, used in active HDMI cables, will probably be shipping in new products by the end of the year. Current HDBaseT will not support the 18 Gbps of HDMI 2.0 and no one on the panel know what the plans are for HDBaseT to accommodate the increased bandwidth (I do see that this will be discussed by the HDBaseT reps at CEDIA Expo).

There was no discussion specific as to HDMI 2.0 capabilities other than a general mention of support 4K at 60 Hz. (I had hoped for more).

It looks like the best bet for more info will be at CEDIA Expo in two weeks where the HDMI organization has a booth and is conducting a training class on HDMI 2.0 (but they charge a fee to attend).


.
Edited by Ron Jones - 9/12/13 at 12:24pm
post #46 of 146
maybe it's time to push a 'modular' wiring system(like using CAT6) to a more commercial level. how nice would it be to simply run like 5 lengths of 'cable' now and be able to connect it to whatever plug you want in the future. i know this is possible, but i'm saying maybe this should be the standard practice, period. it sure would be a lot more 'green' not having to replace all your old cables, but just add to them in the future. even the short runs that are easily replaced would benefit from this system. you just need to replace the connectors, and potentially add another length of cable.

maybe i'm crazy, but i do have about 40lbs of 'obsolete' wires in my closet
post #47 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

maybe it's time to push a 'modular' wiring system(like using CAT6) to a more commercial level. how nice would it be to simply run like 5 lengths of 'cable' now and be able to connect it to whatever plug you want in the future. i know this is possible, but i'm saying maybe this should be the standard practice, period. it sure would be a lot more 'green' not having to replace all your old cables, but just add to them in the future. even the short runs that are easily replaced would benefit from this system. you just need to replace the connectors, and potentially add another length of cable.

maybe i'm crazy, but i do have about 40lbs of 'obsolete' wires in my closet

Same thoughts cool.gif
post #48 of 146
Moving to fiber would at needed bit rates would pretty much increase the price of electronics to a level to "enthusiasts" only. Secondarily, optics have higher failure rates since the LED is a "wearable device" for all intents and purposes. While I do wish it occur....simple differential electrical signals provide and insane bang for buck. Put it in a simple piece of coax and the value becomes quite amazing actually.
post #49 of 146
did I miss something? who said optical? I hate optical just because of physical limitations(corners...)

I was just saying it would be nice if they adopted an upgradeable model across the market. they should be selling connectors, but using the same 'generic' cables(ie the cat6 idea).

think of it this way, you started with a run of svideo, then component came out, instead of replacing the whole thing, you get a new connector for both ends. then HDMI comes out, and again you replace just the connectors, and add a second length of cable to handle the increase in bandwidth.

of course they could continue to develop better cables to handle more bandwidth and elitists can always upgrade if they want to(avoid massive amounts of cables). but there were be no functional difference between running 3 low speed cables or one super high speed cable, etc.

probably a pipe dream, but i'm going to be staying up to date with what's possible with CAT or anything else that replaces it.
post #50 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

did I miss something? who said optical? I hate optical just because of physical limitations(corners...)

I was just saying it would be nice if they adopted an upgradeable model across the market. they should be selling connectors, but using the same 'generic' cables(ie the cat6 idea).

think of it this way, you started with a run of svideo, then component came out, instead of replacing the whole thing, you get a new connector for both ends. then HDMI comes out, and again you replace just the connectors, and add a second length of cable to handle the increase in bandwidth.

of course they could continue to develop better cables to handle more bandwidth and elitists can always upgrade if they want to(avoid massive amounts of cables). but there were be no functional difference between running 3 low speed cables or one super high speed cable, etc.

probably a pipe dream, but i'm going to be staying up to date with what's possible with CAT or anything else that replaces it.

Have you checked out HDBaseT?
post #51 of 146
I find it strange that High Speed (or 1.4a) HDMI cable with a specified bandwidth of 10.2 Gbps can still be used for HDMI 2.0 with a bandwidth of 18Gbps.

Can someone enlighten me on this? Am I missing something?
post #52 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haw View Post

I find it strange that High Speed (or 1.4a) HDMI cable with a specified bandwidth of 10.2 Gbps can still be used for HDMI 2.0 with a bandwidth of 18Gbps.

Can someone enlighten me on this? Am I missing something?

The cable was tested and able to pass 10.2Gbps so it met 1.4a specs. If the same cable design is tested for 18Gbps and passes, then it can be used for HDMI 2.0.
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post #53 of 146
So this is interesting, the HDMI site states the following (also quoted in the OP):
Quote:
HDMI 2.0 does not define new cables or new connectors. Current High Speed cables (Category 2 cables) are capable of carrying the increased bandwidth.

However as near as I can tell, the test criteria for HDMI Category 2 (high speed) cables is 3.5Gbps per channel, and there appear to be 3 channels in an HDMI cable, so that means a total of 10.2Gbps for a Category 2 cable. Where's the other 8Gbps go?

Unless they're going to use Type B connectors/cables (essentially dual-link HDMI). If so, that's a little disingenuous to imply that current cables will work. Since I can scarcely find an HDMI Type B connector cable for sale anywhere.
post #54 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Have you checked out HDBaseT?

I bit. I was a little turned off by the price, but i'm sure i'll look into it again when I start fresh in a new room. I've been 'a year away from moving' for like the last 4yrs, so trying not to dump too much money into the room that I can't take back out with me easily.
post #55 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

So this is interesting, the HDMI site states the following (also quoted in the OP):
However as near as I can tell, the test criteria for HDMI Category 2 (high speed) cables is 3.5Gbps per channel, and there appear to be 3 channels in an HDMI cable, so that means a total of 10.2Gbps for a Category 2 cable. Where's the other 8Gbps go?

Unless they're going to use Type B connectors/cables (essentially dual-link HDMI). If so, that's a little disingenuous to imply that current cables will work. Since I can scarcely find an HDMI Type B connector cable for sale anywhere.

I think what AV said above is basically that these HDMI1.4 cables were never tested beyond 10.2Gbps, now they have been, and it turns out they can carry 18. it's like not knowing your car can drive 100mph because the speed limit is 70mph. turns out you don't need to buy a new car when they raise the limits.
post #56 of 146
And if your car can't just add a super charger or a turbo and some parachutes.
post #57 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I think what AV said above is basically that these HDMI1.4 cables were never tested beyond 10.2Gbps, now they have been, and it turns out they can carry 18. it's like not knowing your car can drive 100mph because the speed limit is 70mph. turns out you don't need to buy a new car when they raise the limits.

Except Cat 2 cables are only certified to 3.4Gbps (per channel). I don't see how they can say that those same cables are certified for twice that, unless either they were actually certified to 6Gbps per channel (and the info form the likes of BJC saying Cat 2 certifies to 3.4Gbps/channel is inaccurate) or they use dual link cables.
post #58 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Except Cat 2 cables are only certified to 3.4Gbps (per channel). I don't see how they can say that those same cables are certified for twice that, unless either they were actually certified to 6Gbps per channel (and the info form the likes of BJC saying Cat 2 certifies to 3.4Gbps/channel is inaccurate) or they use dual link cables.

now i'm confused. are we talking about hdmi or cat? i thought they were different.

in all likelihood what i'm hearing is that the old hdmi cables only work with short runs anyway. so your 20ft hdmi1.4 was probably already maxed out at 10.2gbps, but the 5ft version of the exact same cable is able to carry more than that, and at some length(i don't know what that is) those 1.4 cables can still squeeze through 18gbps

i think the thing to remember is that cables get the rating if they can pass a MINIMUM bandwidth. they don't have to actually test the maximum bandwidth.
post #59 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

now i'm confused. are we talking about hdmi or cat? i thought they were different.

Category 2 (High Speed) HDMI.
Quote:
in all likelihood what i'm hearing is that the old hdmi cables only work with short runs anyway. so your 20ft hdmi1.4 was probably already maxed out at 10.2gbps, but the 5ft version of the exact same cable is able to carry more than that, and at some length(i don't know what that is) those 1.4 cables can still squeeze through 18gbps

i think the thing to remember is that cables get the rating if they can pass a MINIMUM bandwidth. they don't have to actually test the maximum bandwidth.

Exactly, they are certified up to a particular bandwidth, means they are certified ("guaranteed") to work up to the certification criteria, but not beyond that, in the case of Category 2/High Speed HDMI cables, that's 3.4Gpbs per channel.

They may work (and probably will) work higher than that, just like many folks had no trouble passing 1080p60 over Category 1 (Standard Speed) HDMI cables despite that Category 1's certified bandwidth is only sufficient for 1080i/720p.

The problem I have is there's apparent conflicting information. On the one had we have HDMI saying that they have not defined a new standard/category for HDMI cables:
Quote:
Does HDMI 2.0 require new connectors?
No, HDMI 2.0 uses the existing connectors.

Does HDMI 2.0 require new cables?
No, HDMI 2.0 features will work with existing HDMI cables. Higher bandwidth features, such as 4K@50/60 (2160p) video formats, will require existing High Speed HDMI cables (Category 2 cables).

On the other hand we have HDMI saying they've significantly increased the bandwidth:
Quote:
What is HDMI 2.0?
HDMI 2.0, which is backwards compatible with earlier versions of the HDMI specification, significantly increases bandwidth up to 18Gbps and adds key enhancements to support market requirements for enhancing the consumer video and audio experience.

They can't both be true can they? High Speed HDMI cables are tested at 1.65Gbps and 3.4Gbps:
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/certified-hdmi-cables.htm

They normally have 3 channels so a total of 10.2Gbps. You can't just say cables untested at 18Gbps (which would be about 6Gbps per 3 channels) are good enough (certified) to that speed if they haven't been tested, they may or may not work (just like Standard Speed/Category 1 cables sometimes did or didn't work at 1080p or 3D).

That is, unless you're using some "clever" (deceptive) wording. Let's look at exactly what HDMI says on the main HDMI 2.0 page:
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/index.aspx
Quote:
HDMI 2.0 does not define new cables or new connectors. Current High Speed cables (Category 2 cables) are capable of carrying the increased bandwidth.

So lets take this as fact, HDMI 2.0 doesn't define new connectors, so that means the connectors required for HDMI 2.0 must exist already. Well there are 4 types listed as approved:
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/approved_connectors.aspx
A, C, D, and E.

Well I'm going to post this anyway, supposedly there was a Type B connector (see wikipedia) with 29 pins for 6 channel (effectively dual-link) HDMI, which would have been certified to about 20Gbps (3.4Gbps * 6 channels) but it appears that type of connector is no longer approved.

So I'm stumped how they can say cables tested to "10.2Gbps" are ok for 18Gbps.
post #60 of 146
Thread Starter 
It was stated during last week's HDMI 2.0 web seminar, hosted by DPL (lab doing HDMI certification testing), that high speed HDMI cables will work, but only for shorter lengths. One person indicated that the better passive HDMI high speed cables should be good up to 3 meters when the full 18 Gbps rate is required, but active HDMI cables will generally be necessary for longer runs. A new generation of active HDMI cables are expected to start showing up by late 2013 for early 2014.that will support the full 18 Gbps bandwidth for longer cable lengths.
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