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77 UHD OLED TV!!!

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/06/lg-77-inch-curved-uhd-oled/

If LG has one in the works you know others will as well. And FINALLY something in an acceptable size although 80" and larger is more than welcome! Let the price wars begin:)

My guess is that in 2 years the price will be under $9,000 and I'll finally own a TV worth upgrading my old 72" RP CRT TV.
post #2 of 21
prototype alert
post #3 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

prototype alert

 

^LOL.  (phew) Thanks for the warning.  That was a close one....

post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
Yeah, but the OLEDs on sale now were prototypes at the January CES. I'm hoping the move from prototype to production is as fast this time around although of course, other than the mfr, no one knows.
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by boe View Post

Yeah, but the OLEDs on sale now were prototypes at the January CES. .

They appeared at 2 CES-es and then took another 6 months before becoming available. So using that kind of turnaround, the TVs you are seeing now won't be out before early in 2015.
post #6 of 21
Thusfar there has only been UHD OLED TV prototypes, first shown on CES 2013 (Sony and Panasonic 56'' UHD OLED TV prototypes). The first UHD OLED TVs will probably be on the market in 2015, will be 55'' 56'', and will be very expensive. I do not believe there will be a 77'' UHD OLED TV on the market in 2015.

CES 2013 UHD OLED TVs
http://www.techradar.com/news/television/hdtv/eyes-on-sony-and-panasonics-56-inch-4k-ultra-hd-oled-tvs-1123767
post #7 of 21

Ok, wait a minute.

 

Given the fabrication issues, what are the likely size increments going to be for OLED?  Where did 77" come from?  Is the likely progression going to be 55" / 77" / 84" ?  I'm curious about what to expect for likely sizes in the future and why.

post #8 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, wait a minute.

Given the fabrication issues, what are the likely size increments going to be for OLED?  Where did 77" come from?  Is the likely progression going to be 55" / 77" / 84" ?  I'm curious about what to expect for likely sizes in the future and why.

Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the 84" 4K LCD size came from older plants that were no longer making that many 42"LCD sets. The 77" OLED does seem like an odd size. If the are producing 55" OLED probably on 110" plant, how does 77" get cut in without a lot of waste.
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, wait a minute.

Given the fabrication issues, what are the likely size increments going to be for OLED?  Where did 77" come from?  Is the likely progression going to be 55" / 77" / 84" ?  I'm curious about what to expect for likely sizes in the future and why.

Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the 84" 4K LCD size came from older plants that were no longer making that many 42"LCD sets. The 77" OLED does seem like an odd size. If the are producing 55" OLED probably on 110" plant, how does 77" get cut in without a lot of waste.

 

A ton of cell phones?  :)

post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the 84" 4K LCD size came from older plants that were no longer making that many 42"LCD sets. The 77" OLED does seem like an odd size. If the are producing 55" OLED probably on 110" plant, how does 77" get cut in without a lot of waste.

The 55" OLED is not being cut on a Gen 8 plant, so the substrate is not 110".

It's being made on a Gen 6 line where the glass is ~1500 x 1850mm. The 77" should have edge dimensions of 1700 x 960. Certainly a lot less waste, and essentially an admission that you can do "1 up" only at that size on Gen 6. (The 5.5G fab they were using can make 1300 x 1500 glass, so it can't be used for a 77", even as a demo. We can conclude, therefore, it's on the Gen 6 (sometimes called Gen 6.5) that Samsung has been working on.You can cut two 55s from that with a wasted slice on the edge, not terribly different from how you'd make a single 77".

Optimally, Samsung needs to move to Gen 8 for 55" TVs (as does LG), which allows for a clean 3 x 2 cut. But keep in mind Gen 8 is awful for making 65s and eventually the mfrs. figured out how to satisfy demand for them using Gen 8 anyway. They accept the waste and recycle the excess glass.
post #11 of 21
When did LG get a Gen 6 OLED fab? Every report I have ever read indicates that their pilot fab is Gen 8.
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

When did LG get a Gen 6 OLED fab? Every report I have ever read indicates that their pilot fab is Gen 8.

For some reason, I thought this was about a Samsung prototype... Oops.

2200 x 2500 also doesn't cut well into 960 x 1700.... So there's no special logic to making a 77" panel from your 8G fab unless you thought LG was going to make a 75" or 76" prototype. I suspect that was the motivation.
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

For some reason, I thought this was about a Samsung prototype... Oops.

2200 x 2500 also doesn't cut well into 960 x 1700.... So there's no special logic to making a 77" panel from your 8G fab unless you thought LG was going to make a 75" or 76" prototype. I suspect that was the motivation.


Are the efficiencies any worse than for the non-Sharp LCD suppliers? I know that Sharp has a Gen 10 fab but I thought that was the only one in the world.
post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by slacker711 View Post

Are the efficiencies any worse than for the non-Sharp LCD suppliers? I know that Sharp has a Gen 10 fab but I thought that was the only one in the world.

No, Slacker, they aren't especially worse. Sharp does have the only 10G fab, which is why it makes the 70" TVs for everyone who is selling them. It gets a clean, near-perfect utilization of the 10G sheets and a 2 x 3 cut of 70" panels.

I was just generally pointing out that 77" wasn't a good size in any particular way. It was perhaps chosen because LG could process it in their vapor-depo units or because that was a backplane size they could make, but it's not a "real size" in any particular sense and doesn't seem to be especially good for marketing either (it's not a magic number of any sort).

This is a huge problem with 8G generally. It simply doesn't scale past 55" very well. You've seen a good deal of 60s and 65s, so it's worth understanding that they can be made, they just can't be made particularly efficiently is all.

One serious hope for OLED is that roll-to-roll is going to become a real way to make displays instead of the "sheets of glass method". The Sony/Panasonic production process could well lead to that being real since it deposits the OLED using a printing technique. With roll-to-roll, you can order substrate in any width you intend to produce and efficiently produce any size without waste. But this presumes that you can print fast enough that you actually gain speed on what was the slowest step before. So there is much work to be done there. Still, it would be a big win if it happens.
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


I was just generally pointing out that 77" wasn't a good size in any particular way. It was perhaps chosen because LG could process it in their vapor-depo units or because that was a backplane size they could make, but it's not a "real size" in any particular sense and doesn't seem to be especially good for marketing either (it's not a magic number of any sort).
.
Seven is a lucky number in South-Korea, its a lucky number everywere, that might be the reason why it's 77inch. We probably never gonna see a real world 77inch.
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

No, Slacker, they aren't especially worse. Sharp does have the only 10G fab, which is why it makes the 70" TVs for everyone who is selling them. It gets a clean, near-perfect utilization of the 10G sheets and a 2 x 3 cut of 70" panels.

That makes sense.

The Samsung 6G fab would be able to make 65" televisions efficiently but of course, it is only two to a substrate. Anybody who wants a >70" OLED is going to have to pay an enormous premium for the next few years.

I think roll to roll is a very long way off. GE was doing quite a bit of R&D into it for lighting but they have gone quiet over the last few years.
post #17 of 21

^Perhaps this chart is accurate?

 

It's from displayblog, back in 2009 when it was first announced that Sharp would be producing 10g, and discusses the potential cuts (and hence efficiency?) bennefits over 8g.  It's old, so no mention of greater than 65":

 

post #18 of 21
The chart isn't wrong, but it doesn't tell you much about efficiency of cuts.

You make 3 panels of 65" on an 8G substrates in a 1 x 3 configuration that's stacked, for example. (By stacked, I mean you take the vertical edge of the panel and line up three of those "short sides" along the long side of the substrate in this case.)

That ends up wasting 1/3 of the glass even though the width is just about perfect.

Notice how you also only get 3 of the 60" panels from the same substrate. Your waste is far worse, close to 1/2 the glass. Really, everyone in the world should stop making 60s and just Sharp make all of them at Sakai (it could supply global demand). That would free up the remaining 8G fabs for anything else. Given Sharp's dire financial condition, it's actually surprising this hasn't happened by now.

(Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting that the LCD makers not named Sharp make it impossible to re-start their own production if need be, but let's have some perspective. The entire world market that is at 60" and up is about 3% or so, maybe 8 million units per year. A decent amount of that total already comes out of Sakai. By effectively moving the rest there, the mfrs. could push their OLED production far faster using existing facilities and a lot of the same technologies, since there is a decent amount of overlap -- LG uses color filtering almost the same way, Samsung uses backplanes that are very similar, etc. etc. Sharp poses no meaningful threat in OLED; their R&D is nearly zero. But if Sharp lives, it's bad for the growth of Chinese LCD, which is actually the greater threat to Korea. So now that I've fixed the LCD business for the incumbents, I'm off to work on world peace.)
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The chart isn't wrong, but it doesn't tell you much about efficiency of cuts.

You make 3 panels of 65" on an 8G substrates in a 1 x 3 configuration that's stacked, for example. (By stacked, I mean you take the vertical edge of the panel and line up three of those "short sides" along the long side of the substrate in this case.)

That ends up wasting 1/3 of the glass even though the width is just about perfect.

 

There is a growing need for far smaller screens that use the same substrate, no?  Computer, laptop, tablet, and cell phone displays?  Or is that a completely different process?

post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The 55" OLED is not being cut on a Gen 8 plant, so the substrate is not 110". It's being made on a Gen 6 line where the glass is ~1500 x 1850mm. The 77" should have edge dimensions of 1700 x 960. Certainly a lot less waste, and essentially an admission that you can do "1 up" only at that size on Gen 6. (The 5.5G fab they were using can make 1300 x 1500 glass, so it can't be used for a 77", even as a demo. We can conclude, therefore, it's on the Gen 6 (sometimes called Gen 6.5) that Samsung has been working on.You can cut two 55s from that with a wasted slice on the edge, not terribly different from how you'd make a single 77".
Optimally, Samsung needs to move to Gen 8 for 55" TVs (as does LG), which allows for a clean 3 x 2 cut. But keep in mind Gen 8 is awful for making 65s and eventually the mfrs. figured out how to satisfy demand for them using Gen 8 anyway. They accept the waste and recycle the excess glass.

Just bending my mind: COLED (Curved OLED) is made with the same glass sheets and machinery as FOLED (Flat OLED)? Maybe COLED is made with different process and without stringent restrictions of traditional glass sheets???
post #21 of 21

^Inventing terminology is a hobby of yours?  :)  So be it.  Go nuts.

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