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SI 18s- 6 in Sono Tubes - Build is done - Page 8

post #211 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


Yes she does, and its a pretty blue, for about 10 minutes then it is an annoying blue. I shrouded the front with some leftover black velvet from my old screen build and it does an excellent job. I just taped it across the top and left the bottom so it can flap and release the air being pulled through by the fans.
actually, with your sub trim, you might be clipping the input of the peavey. I just said "maybe" though. I would suggest cranking the gain on the peavey all the way up and seeing where that gets your trim level on the AVR to. Hopefully a little closer to 0 or even negative preferably.

in 4 cubes you can get away with a little more power, but then you could run into the thermal limits of the driver. Which is also a big no-no. the peavey should be giving you 600 per driver wit h4 on a channel at 4 ohm.

Lol..... Thx. But you must have skipped the real long post above. I dont blame you , its long. But the short of it is I did a proper gain structure. Although Im having second thoughts on the mini dsp input setting. I dont think a lot of people understand just how involved setting up the gain on the mini dsp really is.

Have a read at this for some of the pitfalls one might encounter while setting up the mini dsp in the gain chain. Turns out they fixed the meter, so -6 is no longer clipping.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/230470-signal-level-minidsp-x-over.html

What I don't like about the amp is the fan runs non - stop, and the fact that two people on this forum had theirs catch on fire. I would not mind leaving it on all the time if it weren't for the airplane fan and the fire incidents. I have smoke detector on top of my amp, and when I cover it with the false wall the smoke detector will go in there.
Edited by pdxrealtor - 10/23/13 at 2:51pm
post #212 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Maybe when you get back you can repost your graphs that you copied to here so we can click on them and get a better look? Over on page one we can click though. Quick question if you make it back before your trip, where do you have things crossed?

Here are the graphs Steve. Another thing to keep in mind is these subs aren't even broken in yet. The freq. response shape changed from the point I started to the end of the day.

I also get a better response with the one door to the room open. That all fine and good, but I just upgraded to a solid wood door for better a better seal. lol........






Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I would move the subs around(I know you are limited) the best you can. Can you stack them? I bet the higher you have a couple the smoother the response. I would also just measure at the sweet spot for your manual tweaking and then let Audyssey do the whole room and see what it does with the response. Rule of thumb is best possible placement with room treatments first to get the main listening position correct and then Audyssey does not have to do as much to fix things.

MK- I have a couple placement options left to try. Yesterday I exhausted everything in the L part of the room with no luck. However, I still have room for on on each side of the room, or one on the side and one in the back. Stacking isn't an option. I could also place them in the middle of the room as tables, but that's not really desirable to me.

I don't have Audessy. I have Pioneer MCACC. It's kind of retarded how MCACC dabbles just low enough into the freq. band to screw with 63hz and up.

I am going to really sit down and evaluate the speed of sound just to satisfy curiosity that my half wall behind the LP is in fact the cause of the nulls. Maybe I'll bass trap that entire ceiling/wall joint one day.
post #213 of 268
The harder the work the better the results! Keep trying all different possibilities and placement for the smoothest response at the LP. Looking good and it seems you already have much more output than before. I saw 110 dBs at 5 hz! Enough said.
post #214 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Lol..... Thx. But you must have skipped the real long post above. I dont blame you , its long. But the short of it is I did a proper gain structure. Although Im having second thoughts on the mini dsp input setting. I dont think a lot of people understand just how involved setting up the gain on the mini dsp really is.

Have a read at this for some of the pitfalls one might encounter while setting up the mini dsp in the gain chain. Turns out they fixed the meter, so -6 is no longer clipping.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/230470-signal-level-minidsp-x-over.html

What I don't like about the amp is the fan runs non - stop, and the fact that two people on this forum had theirs catch on fire. I would not mind leaving it on all the time if it weren't for the airplane fan and the fire incidents. I have smoke detector on top of my amp, and when I cover it with the false wall the smoke detector will go in there.

Disregard my gain structure post in the other thread then biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif Haha. Didn't catch this post before I posted there. Also, who was the second person that fried the peavey? I was only aware of one smoke-out.
post #215 of 268
Quote:
I saw 110 dBs at 5 hz! Enough said.

Geeze pd, 110 at 5 eek.gif The lil reb rouser can't even do that. mad.gifcool.gif
post #216 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Disregard my gain structure post in the other thread then biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif Haha. Didn't catch this post before I posted there. Also, who was the second person that fried the peavey? I was only aware of one smoke-out.

I thought each of the ones bought on Ebay caught fire. I must have mis-read. You read so much here and there and it's hard to keep it all straight.

No worries on the gain structure..... like I said... it was a very long winded post. I spent all night and day reading on that. And while I'm positive I have the gain process down, I'm not so confident on the mini-dsp and how it handles the input/ouput voltage.

I know with my volt meter I read 4.8 volts out of the mini dsp while my AVR was 80% volume and sub trim was maxed (the process I used to set the gain on the amp properly.) but I've read so many times the mini dsp only outputs 2 volts, regardless of input setting. But then there is conflicting info on that too.

Some time really needs to, for me at least, be spent properly setting the mini and understanding it's output voltage at different AVR volume levels.

Here's a very good mini dsp article. The OP actually got the dev at mini dsp to updated the software....... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/230470-signal-level-minidsp-x-over.html

All in time.....
Edited by pdxrealtor - 10/24/13 at 7:21pm
post #217 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Geeze pd, 110 at 5 eek.gif The lil reb rouser can't even do that. mad.gifcool.gif

Haha... if only I didn't live in a null...... smile.gif

I'll get it worked out one way or the other.
post #218 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I thought each of the ones bought on Ebay caught fire. I must have mis-read. You read so much here and there and it's hard to keep it all straight.

No worries on the gain structure..... like I said... it was a very long winded post. I spent all night and day reading on that. And while I'm positive I have the gain process down, I'm not so confident on the mini-dsp and how it handles the input/ouput voltage.

I know with my volt meter I read 4.8 volts out of the mini dsp while my AVR was 80% volume and sub trim was maxed (the process I used to set the gain on the amp properly.) but I've read so many times the mini dsp only outputs 2 volts, regardless of input setting. But then there is conflicting info on that too.

Some time really needs to, for me at least, be spent properly setting the mini and understanding it's output voltage at different AVR volume levels.

Here's a very good mini dsp article. The OP actually got the dev at mini dsp to updated the software....... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/230470-signal-level-minidsp-x-over.html

All in time.....
Mine was the one that caught fire from the bay. I have since received a new replacement which is working perfectly.
post #219 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I thought each of the ones bought on Ebay caught fire. I must have mis-read. You read so much here and there and it's hard to keep it all straight.

No worries on the gain structure..... like I said... it was a very long winded post. I spent all night and day reading on that. And while I'm positive I have the gain process down, I'm not so confident on the mini-dsp and how it handles the input/ouput voltage.

I know with my volt meter I read 4.8 volts out of the mini dsp while my AVR was 80% volume and sub trim was maxed (the process I used to set the gain on the amp properly.) but I've read so many times the mini dsp only outputs 2 volts, regardless of input setting. But then there is conflicting info on that too.

Some time really needs to, for me at least, be spent properly setting the mini and understanding it's output voltage at different AVR volume levels.

Here's a very good mini dsp article. The OP actually got the dev at mini dsp to updated the software....... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/minidsp/230470-signal-level-minidsp-x-over.html

All in time.....

pdx...you're right on miniDSP output voltages. Stereodude seemed to have covered that fairly in depth...and showed output voltages as you did...around 4.8V.
post #220 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blah450 View Post

pdx...you're right on miniDSP output voltages. Stereodude seemed to have covered that fairly in depth...and showed output voltages as you did...around 4.8V.

Do you have a link to that?

Do you recall if the voltage out varied with AVR volume and/or mini-dsp out volume?
post #221 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Do you have a link to that?

Do you recall if the voltage out varied with AVR volume and/or mini-dsp out volume?

Can't remember the specifics about volume, but here is a note I had copied from one of his posts in the miniDSP forum:

Originally Posted by Stereodude

*Disclaimer* This post may be hazardous to the enjoyment of your MiniDSP. Continue reading at your own risk */Disclaimer*
Today I did some testing of my balanced MiniDSP 2x4 and found what I believe to be some fundamental issues with it that make it potentially problematic for LFE equalization duty if your receiver has a strong voltage output. Specifically the MiniDSP has a good probability of acting as a signal level restriction or clipping the LFE signal in the playback chain of people listening at reference.
Some things I learned today:
1) The “balanced” output and input of the balanced MiniDSP maxes out at ~4.6VAC (RMS). Specifically this is the point where increases of the voltage on the input are not met with corresponding increases in voltage on the output.
2) The “unbalanced” (RCA) output of the balanced MiniDSP is at effectively half the voltage level of the “balanced”. This is a loss of ~6dB from the input.
3) The subwoofer output from my THX certified Pioneer Elite SC-05 can exceed 4.6VAC (RMS) under a lot of circumstances.
I used a True RMS multimeter for all my measurements. I used a 40Hz sine wave as the basis of my testing. It was at -0.01dB from full scale. I used both .wav files and 1.5Mbit DTS 5.1 playback via HDMI from my HTPC. The receiver was set at 0dB (reference) and the SW output level trim was set to 0dB. All speakers were set to small and crossed at 80Hz. Additional sound processing was disabled (DPL IIx, etc). Here are the voltages I measured:
DTS 5.1
channel(s) 40Hz sine wave was in – measured VAC (RMS)
LFE - 7.87
Left - 2.76
L&R - 5.5
LFE+L&R - 9.23
All 5.1 - 9.47
Wave playback
channel(s) 40Hz sine wave was in – measured VAC (RMS)
L - 1.703
L&R - 3.43
Leaving the master volume at 0dB and backing the SW output level trim in my Pioneer down to -10dB, the lowest possible setting, and measuring the worst case DTS scenario (the 40Hz sine wave in all 6 channels) again I got 4.44VAC (RMS). This tells me 2 things. First, the Pioneer is probably clipping in the first 0dB SW level test since the extra 10dB should give a voltage gain of ~3.16x and the measurements only show ~2.13x. Second, that measured 4.44V is basically at the I/O limit of the balanced MiniDSP. This means that at reference even with the SW output channel trim turned down to -10dB it’s possible for content to push the input of MiniDSP right to the limit. Further, if you apply any signal boost with filters the MiniDSP doesn’t have the headroom to output a signal that hasn’t been clipped without decreasing the levels with the plugin software.
So, at reference you can just barely keep things from clipping by decreasing the SW output as much as possible and turning the MiniDSP down internally. For playback above reference there's no solution that I can see short of inserting a voltage divider ahead of the MiniDSP on the input side.
post #222 of 268
Bump for updates?
post #223 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Bump for updates?

+1 yeah! whats goin down pd?
post #224 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

+1 yeah! whats goin down pd?

Flying home tomorrow late night. Been in Hawaii.

Woot!
post #225 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Flying home tomorrow late night. Been in Hawaii.

Woot!

well I'll... ok see yuh when you get back smile.gif
post #226 of 268
Are you back yet? Whats the latest?? Are you happy with the new subs??? Better then the XV30's???? lol
post #227 of 268
Thread Starter 
Yes, been back for about a week now. Between catching up around home, work, and waiting on supplies to arrive. I haven't messed with things much.

Had a nice jam session that knocked a sound panel off the wall some how. Kind of sucked because it raked the back of a theater chair. But the bass was disgusting so it was worth it. biggrin.gif

I just got more speaker wire today, so I can move these two floater subs around easier. Got my solid core door installed too.

Tomorrow I'm hopefully going to be able to finish a couple 'last touches' on construction in the theater room and then I'll have nothing left but to dial in sound.

I'm going to pull that mini-dsp out of the chain. If I need any EQ with four subs (I'm reading, and finding that very hard to believe) then I'll throw in the Rane PE 17 I just bought yesterday. wink.gif

XV what? tongue.gif
Edited by pdxrealtor - 11/7/13 at 10:40pm
post #228 of 268
^^^^^^^"I'll throw in the Rane PE 17 I just bought yesterday."

PDX...what's up with the Rane?
As you might have seen from my thread, the mini has been giving me white noise (headaches) for a little while.
What/how did you light on the Rane?
post #229 of 268
Quote:
Quote:
I'm going to pull that mini-dsp out of the chain. If I need any EQ with four subs (I'm reading, and finding that very hard to believe) then I'll throw in the Rane PE 17 I just bought yesterday. wink.gif

I can see you buying a arm load of BASSIS just shy of a month wink.gifbiggrin.gif
post #230 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
PDX...what's up with the Rane?
As you might have seen from my thread, the mini has been giving me white noise (headaches) for a little while.
What/how did you light on the Rane?

I've seen you mention the white noise, and always wondered what you meant. Like a static or like a white noise sound you can produce with REW? I've never listened to the REW white noise so may it sounds like static... I don't know.... lol.

Are you thinking it's a cable issue? Or processing issue or what?

Anyways... I would contact mini-dsp with fingers crossed that they treat you like a paying customer and don't tell you to go read a wiki or FAQ.. rolleyes.gif

RE: the Rane I'm not sure what you are asking when you say what did I light on the Rane? I'll take a couple guesses..... I paid 200 for it. It's in very good condition and black, not that ugly grey. I got it at shop online, I forget the name right now, and they have several left. Both 1993 and 2003 models, but there is no difference between the two except the circuit board layout.

It's adjustable down to 10 hz, same as the mini-dsp.
post #231 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

I can see you buying a arm load of BASSIS just shy of a month wink.gifbiggrin.gif

I took a look at the bassis, and I think I would have preferred it over the Rane by a small margin. But there's no used that I could find, and the new ones were more than I wanted to spend especially not knowing if I'll even need an eq.

Hell at this point I might have to use the mini-dsp to get the response I want.

However I've opened up some placement options for the two little subs, and I just can't see how 4 subs placed in 4 different locations won't in some combination get me a response smooth enough to simple use a quality piece of equipment like the Rane.
post #232 of 268
Gotcha! you know I was playin though. You’re are/going to be sitting good.. cool.gif
post #233 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

I've seen you mention the white noise, and always wondered what you meant. Like a static or like a white noise sound you can produce with REW? I've never listened to the REW white noise so may it sounds like static... I don't know.... lol.

Are you thinking it's a cable issue? Or processing issue or what?

Anyways... I would contact mini-dsp with fingers crossed that they treat you like a paying customer and don't tell you to go read a wiki or FAQ.. rolleyes.gif

RE: the Rane I'm not sure what you are asking when you say what did I light on the Rane? I'll take a couple guesses..... I paid 200 for it. It's in very good condition and black, not that ugly grey. I got it at shop online, I forget the name right now, and they have several left. Both 1993 and 2003 models, but there is no difference between the two except the circuit board layout.

It's adjustable down to 10 hz, same as the mini-dsp.

Hey PDX...only because I know you have gone through a lot of miniDSP usability aggravation as well...the white noise is a low-volume "shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....." sound coming from the subs and no other speaker. It is a constant, identical sound from all 4 subs. If amp gain knobs are turned down, the sound remains the same, but is reduced in volume. If I take the miniDSP out of the chain, the sound is eliminated. Tried 5 different power supplies...including a car battery...all hooked into multiple circuits as well as a Panamax and Furman...no change!

Here is what DevTeam sent me:

"- Noise spectrum: White noise tells me it's high frequency. That's a sub? Do you have LPF/HPF in place on that configuration?
- Is this a kit or miniDSP balanced in a box? Just trying to confirm as we can see a kit. How is this board installed? Make sure that it's not next/close to a torroid transformer. That could explain a high noise level.
- What power supply are you using for this module? Grounding/earthing is done correctly for the kit? You'd have to pay attention that some power supply (e.g. basic) may bring a high level of noise when not properly isolated.
- Voltage wise, the miniDSP balanced will output 4Vrms. Your amp has rated power at 1.23Vrms so you'll clip it real early with that configuration @ max volume on the knobs. You could use a pad or a simple volume control potentiometer on the output of the miniDSP balanced to actually lower its overall level to something more in line in terms of gain structure."

1. have filter in place
2. nowhere near torroid transformer
3. power supply...I have exhausted this one for sure!!!
4. voltage gain structure keeps coming up (also from several folks in the thread I started about the miniDSP noise)...thought you'd be interested here, pdx...but I have an IPR 5000 now and ran two subs, one to each channel, to try a 4-ohm load for a 1.95V input sensitivity and it did not seem to make a difference. Normally, I would have two pairs of subs wired in parallel running 2-ohm load per channel, which is 1.83V IS on my Peavey. I will be attempting the pad or potentiometer solution in the next week or so to see if that works.

Yeah...I was just asking how you decided on the Rane direction as far as which one and why the Rane....didn't know if another forum member had experience with it and suggested the Rane unit.

I appreciate the dialog...and hope you don't mind my long post (was not trying to hijack with my problems).
post #234 of 268
^^^ I mistakenly took white noise as something else. I have experienced a certain harshness in my bass with just hooking up a certain unit in the past with no cut or boost applied and subsequently took your descriptive as such. I have experienced the problem you speak of though with a few different subs and amps. I remember when one of my past plates was going out it really developed a issue with hiss before totally going out.

Hey pd I found this post by Brian with Rythmik and thought I would share it with you on account of I have always known the BASSIS would not address your dips and peaks. (maybe to a degree in dragging the response down lower) I have had a much older Rane in the past with all the sliders on the front. Anyway it was much simpler than the 17 (although it looks very straight forward) and never introduced any white noise blah speaks of. Looks like a nice piece of gear with 6 filters along with input-output control. I also came across a post where one member felt the 17 took his subs to the next level over the BASSIS. I dunno what his parameters were though? Anyway the BASSIS is all about extension and Q. You’re trying to integrate 6 drivers, a very complicated affair in figuring out what’s best and can use all the adjustability you can introduce imo. Going the single unit route, I understand your thinking the Rane ought to be the better choice over the BASSIS.



Quote:
Quote:
The Marchand BASSIS unit and the BFD are really different animals. The BFD is a parametric EQ whereas the BASSIS is an adjustable Linkwitz Transform Circuit. The BASSIS will allow you to lower the low frequency response of a sealed enclosure by adding boost but at the same time you can adjust the Qtc of the entire system.

So I don't think you can really compare the two. Actually, when I get my huge 18" sub built I'll use either the BASSIS unit or a custom built LT circuit strictly for my sub AND a BFD (to tame any peaks).

Brian

Edited by steve nn - 11/10/13 at 6:20am
post #235 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
4. voltage gain structure keeps coming up (also from several folks in the thread I started about the miniDSP noise)...thought you'd be interested here, pdx...but I have an IPR 5000 now and ran two subs, one to each channel, to try a 4-ohm load for a 1.95V input sensitivity and it did not seem to make a difference. Normally, I would have two pairs of subs wired in parallel running 2-ohm load per channel, which is 1.83V IS on my Peavey. I will be attempting the pad or potentiometer solution in the next week or so to see if that works.

Here's what comes to my mind RE: gain structure. If you hear this sound with amp gain in high/mid/low positions with nothing playing from the main supply (AVR?) then I don't see how it could be gain related. I'm pretty sure you aren't sitting there trying to solve a noise problem with your AVR volume at max, and/or your sub trim maxed out so I'll throw that possibility out the window. wink.gif

While your noise is a higher pitched noise vs. a hum what caught my attention was that it goes lower when you turn down the amp volume.

Try this: disconnect pin # one on the output(s) of the mini-dsp. Leave the mini-dsp un-jumped (balanced mode) on the output side as lifting pin one does not make it an unbalanced connection.

Data source is here: http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/humandpin.cfm

Quote:
Yeah...I was just asking how you decided on the Rane direction as far as which one and why the Rane....didn't know if another forum member had experience with it and suggested the Rane unit.

I appreciate the dialog...and hope you don't mind my long post (was not trying to hijack with my problems).

The Rane was suggested to me by Tom Vodhanel of Power Sound Audio, a very knowledgeable person. I at one time had it in my system but could not get rid of the hum so I took it back to Guitar Center thinking it was a faulty unit. With so few to choose from I bit the bullet and bought my first mini-dsp.

Since then I've gotten rid of the consumer amp/sub and moved to the DIY/pro audio setup like you. Hence the move to the balanced DSP unit, and now the Rane PE 17.

Before going over to the BFD I wanted to give a simple analogue/manual unit another shot and see where I end up.

For me the mini-dsp setup process is just too ...... hmmm... right word.... undocumented? tricky? confusing?

Let us know how lifting pin 1 goes. smile.gif
post #236 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Hey pd I found this post by Brian with Rythmik and thought I would share it with you on account of I have always known the BASSIS would not address your dips and peaks. (maybe to a degree in dragging the response down lower) I have had a much older Rane in the past with all the sliders on the front. Anyway it was much simpler than the 17 (although it looks very straight forward) and never introduced any white noise blah speaks of. Looks like a nice piece of gear with 6 filters along with input-output control. I also came across a post where one member felt the 17 took his subs to the next level over the BASSIS. I dunno what his parameters were though? Anyway the BASSIS is all about extension and Q. You’re trying to integrate 6 drivers, a very complicated affair in figuring out what’s best and can use all the adjustability you can introduce imo. Going the single unit route, I understand your thinking the Rane ought to be the better choice over the BASSIS.

Well that shows you the lack of time and research I put into researching the Bassis. I read a few specs then went price shopping and called it quits. smile.gif I didn't realize it wasn't a PEQ.

I think my room is small enough that I won't have phase issues with the subs. What do you think?

A side from the phase adjustments I don't want to use any other methods but placement to get flat or close too.

I've been reading some very good articles and threads that talk about different approaches to setting up and integrating subs. I have a direction that I am going to take and see where it leads me. Let's just say it doesn't include adjusting each subs settings individually with different gain levels, crossover points, etc...
post #237 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post

Here's what comes to my mind RE: gain structure. If you hear this sound with amp gain in high/mid/low positions with nothing playing from the main supply (AVR?) then I don't see how it could be gain related. I'm pretty sure you aren't sitting there trying to solve a noise problem with your AVR volume at max, and/or your sub trim maxed out so I'll throw that possibility out the window. wink.gif

While your noise is a higher pitched noise vs. a hum what caught my attention was that it goes lower when you turn down the amp volume.

Try this: disconnect pin # one on the output(s) of the mini-dsp. Leave the mini-dsp un-jumped (balanced mode) on the output side as lifting pin one does not make it an unbalanced connection.

Data source is here: http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/humandpin.cfm

Let us know how lifting pin 1 goes. smile.gif

If by "lifting", you mean disconnect, I just tried it. Massive feedback hum is now present, where I had no feedback hum prior...frown.gif
post #238 of 268
Thread Starter 
Well that sucks. At least you eliminated another variable. Maybe something is wrong with the mini??
post #239 of 268
Quote:
Quote:
crossover points, etc...

Mmm, interesting! cool.gif
post #240 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Mmm, interesting! cool.gif

lol
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