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Results of $1,000 tower speaker evaluation - Page 3

post #61 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

If I have to fight to obtain a price, then that price is not offered to everybody and should not be used for comparison purposes. That would indicate that the DEFAULT PRICE is higher than the price that would be offered post-haggling. Are we now going to consider how many times one has to walk out of a showroom before the acknowledged "fair price" is offered by the dealer?

I echo CEL's response from above:

"I agree. Unfortunately, some brands forbid resellers from advertising below MSRP. However, that's so that dealers that prefer to don't have to offer a break on price, and so that online retailers have difficulty undercutting those smaller hi-fi audio shops.

Now when we can consistently point to an item that is sold regularly at below MSRP--and advertised as such--like the Klipsch RW-12d over the last couple of years, then we can talk about the item as available at that lower price. And we regularly do. But when it's impossible to predict whether or not someone has access to a lower price, that's manufacturer's fault and problem--not ours."

Calling a dealer and asking his price on a speaker is a fight. When you need a new car, do you just go up and say, "I want that one" and then pay full sticker or do you ask the price?

You are going around in circles, trying to justify, no need for that. Probably 99.9% of the people on these threads on a regular basis, know that you do not have to pay full MSRP when buying speakers, unless you are purchasing direct from a manufacturer. Most probably arrived at the same conclusion that I did.

Nice for some of those speakers to get the exposure.
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 9/12/13 at 3:44pm
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post #62 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

If I have to fight to obtain a price, then that price is not offered to everybody and should not be used for comparison purposes. That would indicate that the DEFAULT PRICE is higher than the price that would be offered post-haggling. Are we now going to consider how many times one has to walk out of a showroom before the acknowledged "fair price" is offered by the dealer?

I echo CEL's response from above:

"I agree. Unfortunately, some brands forbid resellers from advertising below MSRP. However, that's so that dealers that prefer to don't have to offer a break on price, and so that online retailers have difficulty undercutting those smaller hi-fi audio shops.

Now when we can consistently point to an item that is sold regularly at below MSRP--and advertised as such--like the Klipsch RW-12d over the last couple of years, then we can talk about the item as available at that lower price. And we regularly do. But when it's impossible to predict whether or not someone has access to a lower price, that's manufacturer's fault and problem--not ours."

Calling a dealer and asking his price on a speaker is a fight. When you need a new car, do you just go up and say, "I want that one" and then pay full sticker or do you ask the price?

No. But having them refuse to give a price over the phone means that a battle over price will necessarily ensue....and will have to be in person (wasting more of my time).

You posted in #39: "How do you level the field when comparing speakers that are sold direct against speakers that are sold through dealers? With speakers that are sold direct, you are using street price. If you use MSRP for the speakers sold through dealer, that puts the dealer sold speakers at a disadvantage. Based on street price of the dealers speakers"

Just what are you espousing? That we should feel bad for dealers and knock a certain percentage off of their "prices" because we feel sorry for them, because their hands are tied, and because ID offerings are priced too low? What percentage off of MSRP or MAP shall we use?

Further, what happens when one person can't obtain that speaker for THAT PRICE as stated in the article/review/comparo/etc?

I think they handled it well. They acknowledged that many of the dealer-sold loudspeakers can be had for less, but for clarity and consistency, they used MSRP. Any other method leads to broken promises.

My answer to your original question in bold: You don't.
post #63 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

No. But having them refuse to give a price over the phone means that a battle over price will necessarily ensue....and will have to be in person (wasting more of my time).

You posted in #39: "How do you level the field when comparing speakers that are sold direct against speakers that are sold through dealers? With speakers that are sold direct, you are using street price. If you use MSRP for the speakers sold through dealer, that puts the dealer sold speakers at a disadvantage. Based on street price of the dealers speakers"

Just what are you espousing? That we should feel bad for dealers and knock a certain percentage off of their "prices" because we feel sorry for them, because their hands are tied, and because ID offerings are priced too low? What percentage off of MSRP or MAP shall we use?

Further, what happens when one person can't obtain that speaker for THAT PRICE as stated in the article/review/comparo/etc?

I think they handled it well. They acknowledged that many of the dealer-sold loudspeakers can be had for less, but for clarity and consistency, they used MSRP. Any other method leads to broken promises.

My answer to your original question in bold: You don't.

Don't have a problem with it, but apparently you have a problem with me pointing out that there is a difference between using the street price of a direct selling speaker against MSRP of a dealer sold speaker. I see street prices estimated for things all the time, does not mean a promise. Look at Projector Central : http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_5020UB-projection-calculator-pro.htm They do this for every projector listed and there are thousands of them listed there. I have never once thought I should call them and chew them out for promising me a lower price on a projector. smile.gif

It works real simple, You call a dealer and ask, what is your best price on speaker XYZ. You might call two or three dealers and use the average. You are making it out like it is difficult, when it is not.

I am done posting on this.
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post #64 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

No. But having them refuse to give a price over the phone means that a battle over price will necessarily ensue....and will have to be in person (wasting more of my time).

You posted in #39: "How do you level the field when comparing speakers that are sold direct against speakers that are sold through dealers? With speakers that are sold direct, you are using street price. If you use MSRP for the speakers sold through dealer, that puts the dealer sold speakers at a disadvantage. Based on street price of the dealers speakers"

Just what are you espousing? That we should feel bad for dealers and knock a certain percentage off of their "prices" because we feel sorry for them, because their hands are tied, and because ID offerings are priced too low? What percentage off of MSRP or MAP shall we use?

Further, what happens when one person can't obtain that speaker for THAT PRICE as stated in the article/review/comparo/etc?

I think they handled it well. They acknowledged that many of the dealer-sold loudspeakers can be had for less, but for clarity and consistency, they used MSRP. Any other method leads to broken promises.

My answer to your original question in bold: You don't.

Don't have a problem with it, but apparently you have a problem with me pointing out that there is a difference between using the street price of a direct selling speaker against MSRP of a dealer sold speaker. I see street prices estimated for things all the time, does not mean a promise. Look at Projector Central : http://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-PowerLite_Home_Cinema_5020UB-projection-calculator-pro.htm They do this for every projector listed and there are thousands of them listed there. I have never once thought I should call them and chew them out for promising me a lower price on a projector. smile.gif

It works real simple, You call a dealer and ask, what is your best price on speaker XYZ. You might call two or three dealers and use the average. You are making it out like it is difficult, when it is not.

I am done posting on this.

No problems, broski. I'm just not buyin' what you're sellin'. wink.gif
post #65 of 116
I don't like the idea of be asking to the stores for discounts, I avoid those type of business.
Edited by losservatore - 9/12/13 at 5:14pm
post #66 of 116
Look, there are a lot of variables to this debate over price vs. deal, vs whatever.

Some manufacturers have several prices on their price sheet and some dealers buy better than others as well, allowing them to give deeper discounts. I have price sheets from manufacturers that show an MSRP, a never advertised "MAP", and then dealer cost. At full MSRP the margin for some brands is huge and at their MAP it's in line with where every other line without the MAP is. Often times, "street price" is just the MAP labeled so that end users feel like they're getting a discount but really the daler makes the same money as if they sold somethng from a different brand without the MAP step down.

As a dealer of over two dozen speaker lines, if someone were to call and ask for a price I quote them MSRP to establish a bench mark as to the ceiling of where the manufacturer sees the speaker in the market place compared to peers. I then ask qualifying questions to get to know the client as to better help them and understand what they are trying to accomplish by looking at that particular speaker (or whatever) and also to establish what type of work will be involved in dealing with them. Because my company is project based, if they just want to come in and pick up the equipment I offer a substantial break in price based on our cost and dealer programs. There's litterally no work involved in handing someone a box or showing them around our design center so those sales are dollars from heaven and we get to meet a new client that will lead to further sales.
post #67 of 116
Great review! Its nice to see my beloved RF62II's near the top. smile.gif
post #68 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

You have MSRP and you have MAP. MAP is the minimum advertised price. You will not see dealers advertising below MAP, because they have signed agreements forbidding them to do so. It is not the dealers that set this price.

Right. And sometimes MAP is MSRP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Calling a dealer and asking his price on a speaker is a fight. When you need a new car, do you just go up and say, "I want that one" and then pay full sticker or do you ask the price?

It's usually way more involved that than to get the best deal out of a car salesman, in my experience. It's a huge circus at a car dealership.

I think you guys should have chosen a different example smile.gif
post #69 of 116
Oh btw I paid 750.00 for my 62II's brand new. Think I got a good deal. I did call and simply asked whats the best deal you could give me on the 62II's? Sure I could have not called and paid 1000, but that 1mn phone call saved me 250 dollars. Well worth it IMO.
post #70 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHTbuyer View Post

I don't think there is a perfect answer to the MSRP question. I have never had trouble getting 10-20% off MSRP for any decent sized purchase in the past, but many people do pay full price.

Right that was the point I was kind of trying to make. How do you determine what is a $1000 pr speakers? Do you go by assuming someone is going to get a certain percentage off or do you go by MSRP? If you go by a percentage, what percent off do you use?

How many people shopping from Crutchfield is going to know that MSRP isn't a concrete price and that Crutchfield could drop the price of the $1000 RF62 to X amount of dollars?
post #71 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

How many people shopping from Crutchfield is going to know that MSRP isn't a concrete price and that Crutchfield could drop the price of the $1000 RF62 to X amount of dollars?

I didn't know that Crutchfield will deal on price. LOL
post #72 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I didn't know that Crutchfield will deal on price. LOL

I'm sure theres alot of people that don't know they can haggle to get a dealer to drop the price. Hell my local Paradigm dealer doesn't even want to quote me a price for any models.

The issue is there is some that felt the RF82 should have been included and that the results may or may not have looked differently. The problem is the RF82 isn't a $1000 pr tower its more than that. Its only a $1000 tower with a disclaimer with X amount of haggling and dealing to get it down that low.
post #73 of 116
Lets get the thread back on track. Anyone care to answer post 57? Buford?
post #74 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischaos View Post

Lets get the thread back on track. Anyone care to answer post 57? Buford?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischaos View Post

I find it weird that the shootout did not include the other offerings from TIA in the same price bracket-namely, the Swan Diva 6.1 and 6.2. After recently checking the website, i see the 6.2's are no longer listed, yet the 6.1's are. If the Mfg'r of the ARX has both models at his disposal, why not do a head to head comparison? I've asked this at the TIA forum and got very little response, other than the swan's are a much bigger system but other than that, the Arx are better? I don't know what that means-better. I would love someone to enlighten me.

Sonnie only wanted to include non glossy speakers in the shootout, black vinyl mostly or non reflective type finish. It wasn't like TAI wanted to bring their models along, Sonnie wanted to try out the Arx from suggestions on the forum.

I believe the Swans are being discontinued and will be updated. The Swan though would have much more output and is designed for a much larger room.
post #75 of 116
So more output on the swans in the same "small" room as the arx, the swans win? The swans will have more output and certainly better bass extension while working less, so that should decrease distortion so the swans win? The 6.2's/6.1's are being discontinued? When glancing at both speakers, they really do seem to be in different classes. But they are the same price point and since they were offered by the same company, I just found it weird they were never compared anywhere. Buford has posted here and on TIA's forum a ton, seeming to have a lot of insider knowledge of the arx speaker in particular and perhaps, TIA's business and product line in general. I still find it strange no one will comment directly on a comparison between the two.
post #76 of 116
The swan have more money invested on aesthetic but less in quality drivers ,the arx more money invested in quality drivers and less in aesthetic.
post #77 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischaos View Post

So more output on the swans in the same "small" room as the arx, the swans win? The swans will have more output and certainly better bass extension while working less, so that should decrease distortion so the swans win? The 6.2's/6.1's are being discontinued? When glancing at both speakers, they really do seem to be in different classes. But they are the same price point and since they were offered by the same company, I just found it weird they were never compared anywhere. Buford has posted here and on TIA's forum a ton, seeming to have a lot of insider knowledge of the arx speaker in particular and perhaps, TIA's business and product line in general. I still find it strange no one will comment directly on a comparison between the two.

They are not the same company. The Audio Insider is the North American distributor for Swan/Hi Vi speakers. Jon Lane is the designer and I guess owner of the Arx lineup and also works for TAI. The only reason the Swans are the same price as the A5s is they are being clearance out.

There is more to a speaker than output so just because the Swans have more output doesn't mean they will be the preferred speaker over the A5. The A5 is a much more compact and slim tower while the Swan is a very large cabinet volume speaker.

Jon Lane did comment on your thread at the TAI website http://www.theaudioinsider.com/forum/showthread.php?1905-Arx-A5-vs-Swan-6-2-6-1
"The 6.1/6.2 are much larger systems, both physically and acoustically, and will have advantages in sensitivity and bass extension. In every other way, however, the A5 is the better system. "
post #78 of 116
Thread Starter 
I think the issue of trying to equate ID and B&M pricing is a reasonable concern, and there is no easy answer.

Consumer Reports uses street price on most of the items they test. However, they actually go out and buy multiple copies of most of these products at different stores and they are usually low cost items. For cars, they only list MSRP, even though nobody pays that. (They will sell you information on street price, though.)

With these AV reviews, the reviewers don't buy the products, they get them on loan from a distributor or manufacturer. They can't ask for a $1300 pair of speakers and then say that they can be purchased for less than $1000. That would be the last time they would get their hands on B&M speakers. They could say that they will review speakers from $800-$1500, but if all the ID speakers are under $1000 and all the B&M speakers are over $1300, the intent would be obvious. In addition the manufacturer of a $1300 B&M speaker would not be happy if beaten out by a bunch of $800 ID speakers.

So you do the best you can. You muddle through with all the disclaimers, and you let the audience glean whatever information they find useful. You can't ask for more than that.
post #79 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnacleBill View Post

I think the issue of trying to equate ID and B&M pricing is a reasonable concern, and there is no easy answer.

Consumer Reports uses street price on most of the items they test. However, they actually go out and buy multiple copies of most of these products at different stores and they are usually low cost items. For cars, they only list MSRP, even though nobody pays that. (They will sell you information on street price, though.)

With these AV reviews, the reviewers don't buy the products, they get them on loan from a distributor or manufacturer. They can't ask for a $1300 pair of speakers and then say that they can be purchased for less than $1000. That would be the last time they would get their hands on B&M speakers. They could say that they will review speakers from $800-$1500, but if all the ID speakers are under $1000 and all the B&M speakers are over $1300, the intent would be obvious. In addition the manufacturer of a $1300 B&M speaker would not be happy if beaten out by a bunch of $800 ID speakers.

So you do the best you can. You muddle through with all the disclaimers, and you let the audience glean whatever information they find useful. You can't ask for more than that.

You call up three dealers. Ask for a price for the speaker and then use the average as a street price. Then you would be comparing apples to apples, rather than apples to oranges. I have heard all kinds of excuses, such as haggling to get a lower price. I did not say someone should haggle. I just said call and ask for a price. Very simple procedure and it would have leveled the playing field. For an example, if someone calls me and asks the price for an Epson 5020 projector, I give them a price of $2,599 delivered. MSRP on that projector is $2,899. Pretty simple.
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 9/13/13 at 6:40am
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post #80 of 116
About prices & negotiation - no pain, no gain. biggrin.gif

You want to pay 100% MSRP and limit your purchasing decisions that way, it's your prerogative.

For me and many people, whether it's automobiles or audio gears, a little friendly negotiation is all part of the fun and learning. wink.gif
post #81 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

You call up three dealers. Ask for a price for the speaker and then use the average as a street price. Then you would be comparing apples to apples, rather than apples to oranges. I have heard all kinds of excuses, such as haggling to get a lower price. I did not say someone should haggle. I just said call and ask for a price. Very simple procedure and it would have leveled the playing field. For an example, if someone calls me and asks the price for an Epson 5020 projector, I give them a price of $2,599 delivered. MSRP on that projector is $2,899. Pretty simple.

What about return policy? Do you offer the same 30,45,60 day return trial periods?

I believe Sonnie posted that he tried multiple places to get the Klipschs at a discount but they would not allow him to return them if he didn't like them so he said his only option was from one online dealer who would not come down in price from the $1000 a pr. And was up against the Axiom M60 $1000pr, EMP $750pr, and several others.

I also don't see what the big deal is because the RF62 was included in Audioholics $1000 shootout back in 2010 or 2011. So even if the Klipsch RF62 was discounted to $700 they still wouldn't be competitive against a $749 ID brand?

What price range would the Klipsch be competitive at? $500? 600?

There is talk that the RF82 should have been involved and not the RF62, what would have been the price of the RF82? If they would be competitive against the ID brands can they be had for $749 plus shipping with a 30 day return policy?
post #82 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

What about return policy? Do you offer the same 30,45,60 day return trial periods?

I believe Sonnie posted that he tried multiple places to get the Klipschs at a discount but they would not allow him to return them if he didn't like them so he said his only option was from one online dealer who would not come down in price from the $1000 a pr. And was up against the Axiom M60 $1000pr, EMP $750pr, and several others.

I also don't see what the big deal is because the RF62 was included in Audioholics $1000 shootout back in 2010 or 2011. So even if the Klipsch RF62 was discounted to $700 they still wouldn't be competitive against a $749 ID brand?

What price range would the Klipsch be competitive at? $500? 600?

There is talk that the RF82 should have been involved and not the RF62, what would have been the price of the RF82? If they would be competitive against the ID brands can they be had for $749 plus shipping with a 30 day return policy?

Our return policy is on our store site: http://shop.avscience.com/Warranty-and-Returns_ep_42-1.html

Also the Klipsch were competitive. Out of 12, they finished in 3rd or 4th place did they not?

Added
I went to Klipsch's site, looked up authorized dealers and selected a few. Several of them offered a refund for return within the stated time frame. Only one of the four that I clicked on did not offer a return period, That was Sound Distributors. They would only exchange. Of course, what Sonnie was doing is a little different. I can see why a dealer might not want to send speakers, that he is most likely getting back, since the dealer will have to sell as open box.
Edited by AV Science Sales 5 - 9/13/13 at 8:41am
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post #83 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

About prices & negotiation - no pain, no gain. biggrin.gif

You want to pay 100% MSRP and limit your purchasing decisions that way, it's your prerogative.

For me and many people, whether it's automobiles or audio gears, a little friendly negotiation is all part of the fun and learning. wink.gif


Many times negotiating turn into a very bad experience, that's why I avoid those type of business ,I'm talking by my own experience. I buy on the best price that I see or wait for the best deals.

If the store only likes to negotiate and don't like to put a good price tag on that item because negotiating is the way they do business, the store lost a buyer.
post #84 of 116
Just remember, whatever price the speaker is, there's always some reviewer who says it compares favorably with speakers costing 2X or more.
post #85 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Many times negotiating turn into a very bad experience, that's why I avoid those type of business ,I'm talking by my own experience. I buy on the best price that I see or wait for the best deals.

If the store only likes to negotiate and don't like to put a good price tag on that item because negotiating is the way they do business, the store lost a buyer.

I'm sure many businesses you bought from thank you and wish everyone were like you. They make a lot more profit from you than from me.

Everyone feels differently. No pain, no gain.

That's why I can afford my speakers @ 30-50% off MSRP brand spanking new. Oh, yeah. No pain, no gain. biggrin.gif

Different strokes for different folks.
post #86 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Just remember, whatever price the speaker is, there's always some reviewer who says it compares favorably with speakers costing 2X or more.

They are every bit entitled to their opinions. There's nothing wrong with saying you think a $200 speaker sounds as good as a $20,000 speaker if that's what it sounds like to you. The force of diminishing returns is strong with this one. biggrin.gif
post #87 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

How do you level the field when comparing speakers that are sold direct against speakers that are sold through dealers? With speakers that are sold direct, you are using street price. If you use MSRP for the speakers sold through dealer, that puts the dealer sold speakers at a disadvantage. Based on street price of the dealers speakers, I am sure that would have meant different models would have been used for some of the speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Also the Klipsch were competitive. Out of 12, they finished in 3rd or 4th place did they not?
.

So the Klipschs was competitive and even with a 20-30% discount they would still fall into the price range of the HTS shootout. So I say they was not at a disadvantage they was just not the preferred speaker.

Oh and I don't believe HTS is biased they reached out to Klipsch for subwoofer reviews and to see if they would submit a tower speaker for the recent shootout and Klipsch declined.

post #88 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post

Many times negotiating turn into a very bad experience, that's why I avoid those type of business ,I'm talking by my own experience. I buy on the best price that I see or wait for the best deals.

If the store only likes to negotiate and don't like to put a good price tag on that item because negotiating is the way they do business, the store lost a buyer.

I'm sure many businesses you bought from thank you and wish everyone were like you. They make a lot more profit from you than from me.

Everyone feels differently. No pain, no gain.

That's why I can afford my speakers @ 30-50% off MSRP brand spanking new. Oh, yeah. No pain, no gain. biggrin.gif

Different strokes for different folks.


I'm not dumb, I can still find excellent deals. rolleyes.gif you think the only solution is to beg for discounts.
post #89 of 116
It would be great if a Klipsch dealer to submit a pair of Klipsch RF-7s in the $2500 HTS speaker shootout. The MSRP is $3200pr but since a 30% discount or more isn't out of the question that puts them right in there with the ID brands of the same price.
post #90 of 116
As a participating manufacturer, I'd like to add that our philosophy has always been that to get the most meaningful perspective about various models compare acoustical classes. Typically a 5" minimonitor auditioner is going to compare other 5" 2-ways while a double 8" 3-way tower buyer is going to compare other speakers in its class and so on.

Doing so automatically levels the context: A cheap 5" mini naturally tends to be beaten by an excellent 5" mini, and only then the determinant becomes price. The acoustical size precedes the price equation and whatever market complexities there are.

Comparing speakers by price alone tends to conflict both acoustical classes and user's options in his own system, and so it confuses the picture with too many variables at once. First choose your acoustical class, then determine price bracket. Don't compare $40k sports coupes to $40k pickup trucks.

Speaker distortion relates to many things but prime among them is Vd: Any model's available volume displacement dictates more about it than perhaps any other characteristic. With few exceptions, volume displacement relates most to swept cone area which relates fairly consistently to enclosure volume and size, which leads back to much of what drives product cost within any approximate price class.

It's just easier to say "$1000 comparison" than it is to say "strict comparison of twin 6.5" 2.5 way towers under 45" and $1500/pr.", for example.
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