Originally Posted by Archaea
Luke Kamp, carp, and I got together today to compare four of his si vs my pair of caps in the 20hz tune. They both have strengths. For music I didn't really think one was superior to the other, nor did I think they were that different at the level auditioned. -12dB from reference with the subs 3dB hot from the L/R.
For movies both auditions had stronger clips. The gunfire was better on Battle LA on the si, and better in Underworld Awakening on the caps. With the 20hz tune on the caps, you could pick out some of the lower stuff on the si. The four si tap out long before the caps, on the 5000 watt Cerwin Vega amp because of the heavy boosting we had to do in my room. While I'll often demo the caps edging towards reference on the main volume with the caps 6 dB hot and not encounter clipping on my Crown xls-5000, the si sealed combo couldn't go anywhere near that loud, before introducing heavy amp clipping. If I take off that power sucking low frequency boosting, then I lose the only advantage the four si have. As best I could tell the four si were good to just a bit under reference before clipping the 5000 watt amp in my room. With the hpf engaged in the cap I am into the low 130dB range on the caps before running out of amp. The si used near field might be fun, but we ran out of time to test. I'm posting this from my mobile device. I'll throw up more details later including some frequency response captures. Another cool thing. We were able to mix ported and sealed with no problem. No hpf frequency hassles. No noticeable phase issues below tune.
The si subs are great, but I think I'd need more than four in my room to make it happen. Carps 8 in his room are incredible.
PS: the caps air movement will dare anyone not to smile.
I agree with most of this, I did like the SI's better for music. To me the difference is that the Caps have a rounder or more full sound while the SI's have a more lean and punchy sound. The music clips we compared were mostly stuff I never listen to, but on the few rock tracks it was much easier to pick out the difference. Bass I Love you the SI's had a lot more feel which makes sense. The reason I moved from Caps to Submersives in the first place was was for music.
On movies I thought it was going to be a clean sweep by the SI's because the first clip was Battle LA and I thought the SI's had WAY more feel with the machine guns. But then we went to the Underworld Elevator Uzi scene and I like the Caps better on that one.. what the hell....
I also thought there was more feel on the Pulse scene with the SI's as well as a couple more scenes but a lot of the scenes I thought the sound and feel was pretty even and in those instances I preferred the Caps because wind was blowing all around the room, haha. Luke said (and I agree) that most of the scenes where you get all the Cap wind it fits with the scene. Any scene with that much bass the action is always going to be pretty wild and feeling the air move just goes right along with the movie.
I've had 4 SI's for the past 2 weeks in my room and the bass is FAR more impressive over here long before the amp starts clipping. I can go well above reference in my room with just 4 subs with Bass I Love You for example. In Jonathan's room I don't think the subs were even at reference before the amp clipped.
I was wondering if any of it could be the minidsp setup. In my room I have a L/T setup on the mini that gives me a 9 db boost at 10hz, 8 db boost at 15hz, 6 db boost at 20hz, 3 db boost at 25 hz, and 0 boost at 30hz.
In Jonathan's room I didn't have my mini dsp settings so we had to start from scratch so I just used a low shelf boost of 10db's.
Jonathan, can you check those settings and see how much boost there is at 10,15,20, and 25 hz? Just hold your mouse over the line and it tells you the hz and how much boost at that frequency.
Even if the mini made a difference, I'm betting the real difference is the room but I'm curious. You should hear Bass I Love You or any of those movie scenes over here with 4 subs (and I'm giving the subs LESS power than we were in your room!)
compared to 4 at your room.
I've heard the Caps at full tilt in Archaea's room and we weren't anywhere close to that when the CV was clipping trying to keep up - however, the clipping only happened on scenes like The Incredible Hulk or Bass I Love You - stuff with a lot of content below 15hz, I don't think the SI's were anywhere close to their limits either with the frequencies that the Cap was playing (20hz and up).
In the end I think you have 2 options:
1. Stick with the Caps and sell the 4 enclosures.
2. Put SI's or Dayton's in the boxes and put one behind each seat. Keep the Caps up front, we've proven that sealed and ported can work fine as long as the HPF is in place at 19hz (I think it was 19??)
3. Oh yeah, option 3 we go in together on LMS clone drivers.