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One better sub or two subs - Page 11

post #301 of 757
Thread Starter 
This is going to be a long post. This will include all graphs using Room EQ Wizard (REW). REW makes it much easier to measure. In only 2 hours I measured all possible locations. By possible locations, I mean locations where distance of subs from MPL is same. These are the locations
1 - Subs in center
2 - Subs in corner
3 - Subs close to MPL opposite to each other by side walls.

Once I figured out the best location for subs, I took measurements with different phases. The reason I did that was to clear our if changes phases makes a difference with and without Audyssey. Now instead of posting many graphs, I'll post the best results for comparison.

1 - Subs without Audyssey in Center/Corner/Near MPL. For subs only, it turned out that phase180 gave better result than phase 0. Also above 70, graph dips.
Phase 0

Phase 180


So the best result is subs in center with phase 180.
Now let's fix that above 70 by bringing in Left and Right speakers. Here I'm going to show you the best results instead of all others.


Now this fixes the 70 and above.
Finally we are going to integrate Audyssey. Here I'm going to show best results with best combinations of phase and distance. I used 3 positions instead of 8 during audyssey calibration. I also took readings on phase 0 with distances of default set by Audyssey and then with increasing distance by 1 and then 2 and then 3. Phase at angle 0 gave me best result . So this comparison is with phases of 225,0,180.



So this result shows that even though with subs only phase 180 gave best result, after running Audyssey, phase 0 with change of distance (adding 1 to default) gave best result.

Best Result = Subs in center, Phase =0.

Finally Waterfall graph to show the ringing in room. This one is particularly upsetting. The room definitely shows that the room needs major acoustic treatment.


What do you guys think?
Edited by SherazNJ - 10/6/13 at 12:05pm
post #302 of 757
Quote:
Best Result = Subs in center, Phase =0.

Yeah that seems the best from all, but you are having a wide dip between 60-90Hz (either side of crossover). Try and bring the mains 3.5-4 ft into the room so that they are away from the front wall and measure it again.

Also, IMO your room coupled with the seating location does not warrant spreading your subs in the listening area and let you exploit the duals to their optimum.
post #303 of 757
Thread Starter 
braveheart can you explain this a bit more?
Quote:
Also, IMO your room coupled with the seating location does not warrant spreading your subs in the listening area and let you exploit the duals to their optimum.

When I went to buy speakers yesterday, they had a room with only one sub. Room was about 16 feet longer but I could really feel the sub there. I have two and I don't feel the same. Not even close. Agreed that my room is bigger but then I have two subs. One big constrain is that I have to keep the subs at equi-distance.

By the way someone told me that if I keep the wires same length then it doesn't matter where I put the subs since signal travels equal distance. I thought that equi-distance has to be equal from sub to MPL not subs to receiver. Am I missing something?
Edited by SherazNJ - 10/6/13 at 12:59pm
post #304 of 757
your not feeling the bass because the subs are set too low...look at your graphs, the mains are 5-10db higher then the subs, it should be the other way around like I stated a few pages back. Set the XV15 amp gain between 2-3:00, the hell with Audyssey for the moment, then report back how it sounds. smile.gif
post #305 of 757
Quote:
When I went to buy speakers yesterday, they had a room with only one sub. Room was about 16 feet longer but I could really feel the sub there. I have two and I don't feel the same. Not even close. Agreed that my room is bigger but then I have two subs. One big constrain is that I have to keep the subs at equi-distance.

When you go for speaker shopping, the audition room is well set up by the retailers. What if you were a retailer for PSA subs and somebody came to your current HT room? It's a lost sale. Nothing wrong with the subs there, but your room is proving a graveyard to them.

I auditioned a tiny PSB SubSeries 300 sub (12") pressurize a 16'x27' CLOSED room like a 1000 watts 15" sub. I have the same sub in my bedroom. It is all about placement and room acoustics. Your room has 3 doors which lead to other open spaces behind them. They all add up to your room and prove huge leaks in pressurization. You really need to account for those leaks.
Quote:
One big constrain is that I have to keep the subs at equi-distance.

Who said that? The continuously variable phase knob is there for this very reason. It adds delay to the signal. The distance setting in the AVR is nothing but the delay setting. You control one sub from AVR, and the other by utilizing its phase knob. I don't think there is an issue.

Also, if you remember in one of my earlier posts, I told you your seating area (MLP) was not having reinforcement from the rear wall. It is way up ahead (10 ft) from the wall behind it. Anyway, now you have REW, try as many spots in your room as possible. It will make your job easier and snappier.

Couple of suggestions;

1) Keep one sub in the middle of left wall (between the front left speaker and the left most seat). Let the port fire into the side wall. Keep it about 6 inches from the side wall. Keep the second sub behind the right most seat against the wall between the rear door opening and your right seat.

2) Keep one sub in the middle of right wall (between the front right speaker and the right most seat). Let the port fire into the side wall. Keep it about 6 inches from the side wall. Keep the second sub in the middle of the the wall that is between two doors at the end. The area on the left side of your seats all the way to the end of room.

I know these positions are unorthodox; but so is your room. Let's see what you get. Mind you my bedroom is L shape and my sub is in the walk way along the side wall. I can't even see it from MLP. It's like your room, however it's smaller. And I have fantastic pressurization. I have some nasty dips between 55-90Hz, but I'm living with them.
post #306 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

When you go for speaker shopping, the audition room is well set up by the retailers. What if you were a retailer for PSA subs and somebody came to your current HT room? It's a lost sale. Nothing wrong with the subs there, but your room is proving a graveyard to them.

I auditioned a tiny PSB SubSeries 300 sub (12") pressurize a 16'x27' CLOSED room like a 1000 watts 15" sub. I have the same sub in my bedroom. It is all about placement and room acoustics. Your room has 3 doors which lead to other open spaces behind them. They all add up to your room and prove huge leaks in pressurization. You really need to account for those leaks.
Who said that? The continuously variable phase knob is there for this very reason. It adds delay to the signal. The distance setting in the AVR is nothing but the delay setting. You control one sub from AVR, and the other by utilizing its phase knob. I don't think there is an issue.

Also, if you remember in one of my earlier posts, I told you your seating area (MLP) was not having reinforcement from the rear wall. It is way up ahead (10 ft) from the wall behind it. Anyway, now you have REW, try as many spots in your room as possible. It will make your job easier and snappier.

Couple of suggestions;

1) Keep one sub in the middle of left wall (between the front left speaker and the left most seat). Let the port fire into the side wall. Keep it about 6 inches from the side wall. Keep the second sub behind the right most seat against the wall between the rear door opening and your right seat.

2) Keep one sub in the middle of right wall (between the front right speaker and the right most seat). Let the port fire into the side wall. Keep it about 6 inches from the side wall. Keep the second sub in the middle of the the wall that is between two doors at the end. The area on the left side of your seats all the way to the end of room.

I know these positions are unorthodox; but so is your room. Let's see what you get. Mind you my bedroom is L shape and my sub is in the walk way along the side wall. I can't even see it from MLP. It's like your room, however it's smaller. And I have fantastic pressurization. I have some nasty dips between 55-90Hz, but I'm living with them.

All these positions gave me big dips (25db at 50 hz) and that is best result after playing with phase in all positions. Here is the comparison of this with subs in center.
Blue=Subs in center, Red=One sub in middle of left and one sub in rear.
post #307 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

All these positions gave me big dips (25db at 50 hz) and that is best result after playing with phase in all positions. Here is the comparison of this with subs in center.
Blue=Subs in center, Red=One sub in middle of left and one sub in rear.

The blue graph is decent... +/-4db. now bump the sub amp gain up and see how it sounds.
post #308 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Finally Waterfall graph to show the ringing in room. This one is particularly upsetting. The room definitely shows that the room needs major acoustic treatment.


What do you guys think?

No, unless you have an amazingly quiet environment. You're noise floor at 30dB is totally unrealistic. Raise it to 40 or 45, which is more reasonable, and the graph doesn't look that bad.

And, as basshead says, a typical "house curve" has the bass higher than the mains and sloping down, so goose up those subs 10dB or more.

And enjoy!

post #309 of 757
Thread Starter 
My apologies guys. Last graph had audyssey on. I forgot to turn on Audyssey. This next graph is by far the best one (Yellow Line). I am also including other best result to compare with. The best result I got is with sub1 in middle of left speaker and MPL and sub to in rear wall (braveheart option #1). I had to set phase to 90 degrees to get the best result.

Basshead: this one has sub stronger than speakers :-) Please note that this result is without Audyssey.

post #310 of 757
Lookin good! Now how does it sound?
post #311 of 757
Thread Starter 
and this one is after calibration. It brough a dip at 50 and after making many changes to phase, this is the best I could get. This is comparing best results after calibration.
Center position wins but this new setup where one sub is in the back and one on side makes me think that it'd surround me better. Of course the graph doesn't show it but just having subs close to MLP makes me think this way :-)

post #312 of 757
Thread Starter 
about to include all speakers and try :-). Even though there is a dip at 50, I'll go with it to see how it sounds. Also I have gain at 2 pm. on subs.
post #313 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

No, unless you have an amazingly quiet environment. You're noise floor at 30dB is totally unrealistic. Raise it to 40 or 45, which is more reasonable, and the graph doesn't look that bad.
And, as basshead says, a typical "house curve" has the bass higher than the mains and sloping down, so goose up those subs 10dB or more.
And enjoy!

What am I raising to 40 or 45? Sorry not an expert in REW. Just a beginner.
post #314 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post


What am I raising to 40 or 45? Sorry not an expert in REW. Just a beginner.

 

Fear not, we all started somewhere (actually, we all started at the beginning). 

;)

I hope you have AustinJerry's guide:

post #275

 

 

In the waterfall graph, click on "limits." The bottom limit is the "noise floor" of your room, that is, how quiet (or not) it is with everything off.

You can use an SPL meter, or REW's SPL meter function (if it's calibrated) to get an accurate measure, but 45 or 50 dB is reasonable.

In other words, you're worrying about background noise.

Michael

post #315 of 757
Thread Starter 
ok guys. Here we go with final results. I did 8 point calibration with Audyssey. I'll show the graph that shows the result after audyssey. Then I started adjusting the distance and got out of any drops :-). Then finally I'm going to compare the best of all the readings I have had. Couldn't get completely close to what I had without Audyssey but it is close enough.




and here is the ones with best. I wish if I could have same is before running Audyssey :-(.


So I'm going go to with distance 16 ft. Default was 11.
BassHead: I have gain set to 2 p.m. :-) hoping to get some good base. Time to test subs and speakers together :-) I'll post the results.
post #316 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Fear not, we all started somewhere (actually, we all started at the beginning). 
wink.gif
I hope you have AustinJerry's guide:
post #275




In the waterfall graph, click on "limits." The bottom limit is the "noise floor" of your room, that is, how quiet (or not) it is with everything off.
You can use an SPL meter, or REW's SPL meter function (if it's calibrated) to get an accurate measure, but 45 or 50 dB is reasonable.
In other words, you're worrying about background noise.
Michael
SPl gives me around 40 for room noise. I set up limit with 45 and generated graph with the I'm going to stick with to see how it sounds. Here is the graph. It shows that lower than 50 are staying longer.
post #317 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post


SPl gives me around 40 for room noise. I set up limit with 45 and generated graph with the I'm going to stick with to see how it sounds. Here is the graph. It shows that lower than 50 are staying longer.
 

 

Which you would expect, since it's now louder.

Let's see how it sounds!

Eagerly awaiting.

You have some good demo material, no?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/demonstration-blu-ray-discs-independently-authored

post #318 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Which you would expect, since it's now louder.
Let's see how it sounds!
Eagerly awaiting.
You have some good demo material, no?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475769/demonstration-blu-ray-discs-independently-authored

Just watched a few scenes of War of world. Let's break it down
1 - Speakers
2 - Subs

Speakers sound amazing. Absolutely love them. As soon as I heard a few scenes, I right away said woooww. So Speakers A+

Subs do sound good but not great. They do sound better in current position(one on side wall and one in rear) as compared to having both in front. But I'm still comparing to what I heard in Electronic Expo demo room and its not there. That room shook me. Mine doesn't. Bass is good but not completely there yet. Now I don't know what's missing.

I know some of you would say that the the room is acoustically treated and specially designed for that purpose. They do have two panel (side wall and rear) but the also have 3 big frame picture that are in glass framed and are very reflected. That room also had no bass treatment. Just two big panels. The entering door was also open. So that room wasn't completely acoustic by any means but it did sound great. They have 1 15" sub. Now my room is not as good as theirs but then I have two 15" subs. Plus they demoed me the movie Clash of Titans with RF-61 which are not even tower speakers. Mine are tower speakers and help with subs in Mid and High.

So putting all together, I should have same effects but alas I'm missing it :-(. I even have gain on each sub at 2 p.m. and Audyssey bass rim to 3+ (which was .5+ after calibration).
What am I missing??????????????????
post #319 of 757
Turn the subs to 3:00
post #320 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Turn the subs to 3:00
According to Audyssey forum, don't just turn gain knob. If change gain know, the calibrate again. Do you agree?
post #321 of 757
Thread Starter 

Interesting. Will definitely check it out. Thanks for the link.
post #322 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

According to Audyssey forum, don't just turn gain knob. If change gain know, the calibrate again. Do you agree?

I think audyssey is setting your subs too low. Several have had problems with the mic causing low readings from audyssey. Turn the sub amp gain to 3:00 rerun audyssey, avr output should read around -5, then set it back to -2 or 0 and your subs will be 3- 5 db hot. Try it and see what you think. The point is to keep adding subwoofer output until the bass is satisfying. I doubt you are hardly driving the subs, they have soft limiters built in anyhow so dont worry about hurting them, just try and find thier limits.
post #323 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Subs do sound good but not great. They do sound better in current position(one on side wall and one in rear) as compared to having both in front. But I'm still comparing to what I heard in Electronic Expo demo room and its not there. That room shook me. Mine doesn't. Bass is good but not completely there yet. Now I don't know what's missing.

I was at an affair last night and the bass was pounding in my head all night. It sounded awful (though the kids thought it was great). I knew that I was feeling a ton of 50 - 60 Hz, with nothing below that (it was a huge room), and, to make matters worse (to anyone listening critically), there was probably nothing over about 3kHz.

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

If you took your measuring setup with you to EE, you'd probably be very surprised at the graph. They know what sells.

You're still pretty flat. A "house curve" usually slopes downwards, which will probably be hard to do with just volume controls.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/566772/please-explain-house-curve

But, by all means, kick up the bass until you're happy (or the cops drop by). You're not "missing" anything, you're just not done yet.

But you're REALLY close!

post #324 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

ok guys. Here we go with final results. I did 8 point calibration with Audyssey. I'll show the graph that shows the result after audyssey. Then I started adjusting the distance and got out of any drops :-). Then finally I'm going to compare the best of all the readings I have had. Couldn't get completely close to what I had without Audyssey but it is close enough.




and here is the ones with best. I wish if I could have same is before running Audyssey :-(.


So I'm going go to with distance 16 ft. Default was 11.
BassHead: I have gain set to 2 p.m. :-) hoping to get some good base. Time to test subs and speakers together :-) I'll post the results.

The response in red colour in that second graph looks amazing with a natural 7dB house curve till 20Hz and amazing mid-bass extension up to 150Hz. If that is with audyssey off, try this thing. When running audyssey calibration process, switch off the subs. Audyssey won't detect your subs and will calibrate rest of the system. Once all 8 point calibration is done and you enable DynamicEQ. Switch the subs back on, enable sub in the settings, change speakers to small, set the crossover and levels, and phase align them with the mains. This way you can preserve your pre audyssey response for the subs and use it as it is while still using audyssey for the remaining speakers.

One can easily do it in Onkyo. Can't be done in Denon. Don't know about Marantz. See if you can do it.
post #325 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I think audyssey is setting your subs too low. Several have had problems with the mic causing low readings from audyssey. Turn the sub amp gain to 3:00 rerun audyssey, avr output should read around -5, then set it back to -2 or 0 and your subs will be 3- 5 db hot. Try it and see what you think. The point is to keep adding subwoofer output until the bass is satisfying. I doubt you are hardly driving the subs, they have soft limiters built in anyhow so dont worry about hurting them, just try and find thier limits.

Good idea. I'll try that.
post #326 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

I was at an affair last night and the bass was pounding in my head all night. It sounded awful (though the kids thought it was great). I knew that I was feeling a ton of 50 - 60 Hz, with nothing below that (it was a huge room), and, to make matters worse (to anyone listening critically), there was probably nothing over about 3kHz.
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
If you took your measuring setup with you to EE, you'd probably be very surprised at the graph. They know what sells.
You're still pretty flat. A "house curve" usually slopes downwards, which will probably be hard to do with just volume controls.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/566772/please-explain-house-curve
But, by all means, kick up the bass until you're happy (or the cops drop by). You're not "missing" anything, you're just not done yet.
But you're REALLY close!

I completely understand what you mean. But a good quality bass shouldn't be annoying. The quality of bass in these XV-15 subs is amazing. Hard to explain but It doesn't feel like its boom boom but rather deep. The bass effect I like is the one that hits you in your chest rather than your head (I hope it makes sense). Let's see if I can explain myself better. Imagine you are standing by a door and in your deep thought. All of a sudden someone slams the door and it scares you. That sound you won't feel in your head but in your heart (lame exampe I know).
Whn I'm listening to my subs, they don't sound like boom boom but more like dhub dhub (a deep heavy bass). I just need it a little bit stronger.
post #327 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

The response in red colour in that second graph looks amazing with a natural 7dB house curve till 20Hz and amazing mid-bass extension up to 150Hz. If that is with audyssey off, try this thing. When running audyssey calibration process, switch off the subs. Audyssey won't detect your subs and will calibrate rest of the system. Once all 8 point calibration is done and you enable DynamicEQ. Switch the subs back on, enable sub in the settings, change speakers to small, set the crossover and levels, and phase align them with the mains. This way you can preserve your pre audyssey response for the subs and use it as it is while still using audyssey for the remaining speakers.

One can easily do it in Onkyo. Can't be done in Denon. Don't know about Marantz. See if you can do it.

When I read your post, I couldn't stop laughting. This is a definitely a very smart trick. I was very upset with what Audyssey did to my graph after calibrating. The funny thing is that we had this idea all along that if we can make subs produce a good graph, Audyssey is only going to make it better. Well that didn't work out well in this case. I believe this theory is correct when subs are at equal distance. Their algorigtm is most likely doing something with distance as well. Otherwise, it should have made graph even better.

Now back to your awesome idea. I'm going to have to see if avr will allow me to enable sub. If it does then got a good chance. But then again, this reading that I had was playing with phase and got it when rear sub phase was at 90 degees. Now if I'm going to phase align them with mains then I'll have to play with phase knob again and it will throw off the graph. Am I misunderstanding something (I'm sure I am)?
post #328 of 757
Quote:
Now if I'm going to phase align them with mains then I'll have to play with phase knob again and it will throw off the graph. Am I misunderstanding something (I'm sure I am)?

Yes. Your phase align both subs collectively with mains by changing the sub distance setting in the AVR. If after that it changes response drastically; only then we tinker with the phase knobs. Otherwise not required.
post #329 of 757
Quote:
I'm going to have to see if avr will allow me to enable sub.

I doubt it will be possible with Marantz as it is owned by Denon. And um sure it isn't possible in Denon. But who knows? Try and see if it Marantz lets you use audyssey and dynamicEQ when you switch the subs back on after calibration. Keep the subs enabled in speaker set up; only keep them switched off. When Audyssey prompts after the 1st round that it didn't find sub; just continue to the next round and complete 8 point calibration.
post #330 of 757
Quote:
The bass effect I like is the one that hits you in your chest rather than your head (I hope it makes sense).

You want strong bass in 25-50Hz region. That hits you in the chest.
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