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One better sub or two subs - Page 13

post #361 of 757
Quote:
This option is under surround in AVR and is set to -3db.
thx.

Set it to 0dB.
post #362 of 757
Thread Starter 
Just a quick detail of my experience watching the secen where from War of the world where this firt robot is coming out of ground. Let's see if I can find the right words.
Awesommeeeeee. The scene where the road is splitting has very low bass and man o man I could feel all that. I even got scared. I started looking around if it was going to break anything. Thank god it didn't. Next scene where robot is coming out and steps out, his each step I could hear loud and deep and clear. Then the scene where he starts firing at people, each shot has deep bass and it really scares the sh** of of me. Then this scene where the bridge is breaking woooowwwwww. It really scared me. All I was doing was laughing with full of job. So far the experience is exceptionally well.
I already spoke about the speakers. They are awesome. I still can clearly feel that there is some echo. I wonder how its going to should after room treatment :-). And mind you there is no bass traps installed as of now. I can't wait to hear how its going to sound once room is accoustically treated.

Even basic scenes where thye are showing someone (well Tom Cruise) is walking up on the second floor, there is suspese music and I can clearly hear the bass. Currently I'm in the middle of burning the demo disc that LastButNotLeast gave the link of (again thx for that). Will update you guys how it goes.

So far, this is the besssst result I got :-). Kudos to Braveheart, BassHead, Craig John and all other who have been very patient with me throughout this process and provided gudance in every step of the way. The process is not complete yet. I am planning to make a detail post for those who are following this tread and others who might come across it in future to summarize the whole process.
I'll also post my final graph here which by the way looks very nice.
post #363 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Set it to 0dB.
Ah when I set it to 0db, it starts shaking walls :-). When I put it back to -3db, I could feel that the bass wasn't as strong. So I bumped up sub trim level to get there. So what's the difference between the two. I did read the definintion of it and it seems like it stops lower frequency waves from going out of room. I don't care about it since my house is not connected to others and have a very decent destance from neighbours.
post #364 of 757
We are glad that the rib cage is flexing now wink.gif By the way set the LFE to 0dB and have a blast.
Edited by braveheart123 - 10/8/13 at 12:26pm
post #365 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

The process is not complete yet.

 



I hate to break this to you, but the process is NEVER complete.
:-)
post #366 of 757
Thread Starter 
There are three options

1 - Frequency Effect
2 - Subwoofer level
3 - Sub Trim under Speaker Level

Setting Frequency to 0 really starts shaking me up and I love it :-). I did put sub level to -3. Subwoofer level is set to +2 (I didn't touch it).
The bass is amazingggggggggggggggggggg.
post #367 of 757
Quote:
Ah when I set it to 0db, it starts shaking walls :-). When I put it back to -3db, I could feel that the bass wasn't as strong. So I bumped up sub trim level to get there. So what's the difference between the two. I did read the definintion of it and it seems like it stops lower frequency waves from going out of room. I don't care about it since my house is not connected to others and have a very decent destance from neighbours.

That 0dB is for the .1 channel (LFE - Low Frequency Effects), which is always played back 10dB louder by the sub compared with other speakers. If you reduce it by, let's say, 3dB; the LFE will be played back 3dB weaker. Which means the LFE content will now be just 7dB louder.

Always, let the LFE through to the sub as it is i.e. 0dB. If you are listening at -30dBFS (75dB), your speakers will play at 95dB and the LFE content in the sub has got to play at 105dB when the transients hit in movies e.g. sudden explosions, crash and bang scenes etc. If you set the LFE to -10dB in avr, your sub will be playing at the same SPL as your other speakers, which will give you very weak bass. All the special effects that I mentioned earlier need to be played back at 0dB or you won't get the kind of bass that is mixed in the movies.
post #368 of 757
Quote:
1 - Frequency Effect
2 - Subwoofer level
3 - Sub Trim under Speaker Level

I really don't know anything about Marantz AVRs. But anyhow I think Frequency Effects is LFE, which should be at 0dB. Don't know in which context "Subwoofer Level" is used there. Sub Trim is the overall subwoofer level.
post #369 of 757
Thread Starter 
thx braveheart. I just went up stairs to see how it feels when a good bass scene is going. It was actually scary. I could feel things shaking. Even walls felt like shaking. The door bell attached to wall started shaking which obviously is a sign that the walls were shaking. The floor felt like shaking. Everything felt shaking. My stairways were also shaking. Even the main door was skaking.
Should I be concerned here? I don't how dangerous this can be?

thx.
post #370 of 757
It's very dangerous. You're going to get used to it.
It's called "upgrade-itis."
Welcome to the club.
post #371 of 757
You might wana watch "The Hills Have Eyes - Part 2". It is one of my all time favourite movies and use it as reference for checking background nuances/effects. It has amazing LFE. Mind you; you don't have to go nuts with the master volume to feel the bass. Any good sub will pick up those nuances at even low volumes.
post #372 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

It's very dangerous. You're going to get used to it.
It's called "upgrade-itis."
Welcome to the club.

I meant to ask if it is dangerous for house build? What do you mean by its very dangerous?
post #373 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

You might wana watch "The Hills Have Eyes - Part 2". It is one of my all time favourite movies and use it as reference for checking background nuances/effects. It has amazing LFE. Mind you; you don't have to go nuts with the master volume to feel the bass. Any good sub will pick up those nuances at even low volumes.

Added to queue. I don't have volume too high. Its at 70 and I have always watched movies at this level.
post #374 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post



What do you mean by its very dangerous?

 



Your house will (probably) be fine.
It (upgrade-itis) is not harmful, just expensive.
Have fun.
Michael
post #375 of 757
Glad to hear all the hard work is finally paying off! welcome to bass nirvana!! smile.gif
post #376 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

There are three options

1 - Frequency Effect
2 - Subwoofer level
3 - Sub Trim under Speaker Level

Setting Frequency to 0 really starts shaking me up and I love it :-). I did put sub level to -3. Subwoofer level is set to +2 (I didn't touch it).
The bass is amazingggggggggggggggggggg.

That feature is called "LFC" and it's an Audyssey feature. LFC stands for "Low Frequency Containment." It attempts to reduce the transmission of sound, particularly the bass, through structures, such as your home. It will reduce the shaking and vibration you feel upstairs in the walls and floors. It's a great feature... if you don't mind the audible effects. The key is to find a setting that doesn't affect audibility but still reduces the transmission of the bass. I haven't yet found that combination, but I do sometimes use the feature at night when I'm watching something and my wife is trying to sleep. Otherwise it stays off.

Craig
post #377 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Glad to hear all the hard work is finally paying off! welcome to bass nirvana!! smile.gif
Thank you thank you. But, I am really worried about my house (all jokes aside). I go to first floor and I feel like its shaking. Its awesome but I am really worried if its going to crack my walls???? LastButNotLeast said that (probubly) not. What do you guys think? The more votes I get towards safety, the better I'll feel obviously :-)
post #378 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

That feature is called "LFC" and it's an Audyssey feature. LFC stands for "Low Frequency Containment." It attempts to reduce the transmission of sound, particularly the bass, through structures, such as your home. It will reduce the shaking and vibration you feel upstairs in the walls and floors. It's a great feature... if you don't mind the audible effects. The key is to find a setting that doesn't affect audibility but still reduces the transmission of the bass. I haven't yet found that combination, but I do sometimes use the feature at night when I'm watching something and my wife is trying to sleep. Otherwise it stays off.

Craig

I abslolutely love how Craig explains all these technical stuff. Craig is full of knowledge and I'm very happy that you take time out from your busy life to share your knowledge with all of us(same goes to Braveheart,BassHead and LastButNotLeast).
post #379 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Thank you thank you. But, I am really worried about my house (all jokes aside). I go to first floor and I feel like its shaking. Its awesome but I am really worried if its going to crack my walls???? LastButNotLeast said that (probubly) not. What do you guys think? The more votes I get towards safety, the better I'll feel obviously :-)


The XV15's are powerful subs, however I dont think they will wreck the foundation unless the contracter did a poor job building the house.
post #380 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The XV15's are powerful subs, however I dont think they will wreck the foundation unless the contracter did a poor job building the house.

Probably not the foundation but high SPL bass can put cracks in drywall, or cause nails to pop out. Foundation damage, not likely, home damage, certainly.
post #381 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

Probably not the foundation but high SPL bass can put cracks in drywall, or cause nails to pop out. Foundation damage, not likely, home damage, certainly.
Well then for the next few weeks I'm going to keep on checking if there is any crack coming up :-). If I see any then I'll just turn the gain a bit low.

BTW, I know that once calibrated with Audyssey, it is strongly not advised to turn sub trim in avr below what it sets. It is ok to turn it up but now below. If I want to turn a bit low, I can use gain knob on subs. If I do that, do I have to re-calibrate?
post #382 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Well then for the next few weeks I'm going to keep on checking if there is any crack coming up :-). If I see any then I'll just turn the gain a bit low.

BTW, I know that once calibrated with Audyssey, it is strongly not advised to turn sub trim in avr below what it sets. It is ok to turn it up but now below. If I want to turn a bit low, I can use gain knob on subs. If I do that, do I have to re-calibrate?
I never change the subwoofer gain controls after running Audyssey. It's too hard to go back to the original point on the gain setting, especially with amps that don't have detentes on the gain knobs. If I want to raise or lower the levels of the subs, I use the subwoofer trim controls in the AVR. You can do anything you want with the sub trim in the AVR. Just record where it was when you started so you can go back to the "calibrated" level very easily. (I do try to avoid "positive" settings. It is possible to overdrive the inputs of some subwoofer amps with too high a signal. As long as you stay at 0 or below, that should never be a problem.)

I think what you are referring to is that you shouldn't lower crossovers below what Audyssey sets them to. You can raise the crossovers, but if you lower them, you'll no longer have correction below the crossovers set by Audyssey. Audyssey measures the -3 dB point of the speakers. It sets the crossovers to the next highest available crossover above that -3 dB point. It won't go lower than the -3 dB point because the only "correction" it could apply there is boost. Boosting low frequencies below the point where the speakers can practically reproduce them is dangerous to the speakers, and Audyssey won't do that. Since the speakers are rolling off their response below the -3 dB point anyway, there is nothing to be gained by lowering the crossovers.

OTOH, it's fine to raise the crossovers, as Audyssey will still apply room correction above the -3 dB point.

Craig
post #383 of 757
Quote:
That feature is called "LFC" and it's an Audyssey feature. LFC stands for "Low Frequency Containment." It attempts to reduce the transmission of sound, particularly the bass, through structures, such as your home.

Sounds like a different name to Dynamic Range Compression.
post #384 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post


You can raise the crossovers, but if you lower them, you'll no longer have correction below the crossovers set by Audyssey. Audyssey measures the -3 dB point of the speakers. It sets the crossovers to the next highest available crossover above that -3 dB point. It won't go lower than the -3 dB point because the only "correction" it could apply there is boost. Boosting low frequencies below the point where the speakers can practically reproduce them is dangerous to the speakers, and Audyssey won't do that. Since the speakers are rolling off their response below the -3 dB point anyway, there is nothing to be gained by lowering the crossovers.

OTOH, it's fine to raise the crossovers, as Audyssey will still apply room correction above the -3 dB point.

Craig


The main reason why audyssey doesn't recommend lowering the crossovers is that audyssey applies more filters the lower you go in the spectrum (bass frequencies). If you raise the crossover you get to enjoy more correction filters in the signal that goes to sub, which results in better bass. If you lower the crossover let's say from 80Hz to 60Hz, you lose the finer filter resolution from 60Hz to 80Hz coz that signal will be played by speakers where audyssey applies less filters.

Also, Audyssey doesn't set the crossover frequencies for any speaker. It just returns -3dB point of all the speakers to the AVR during calibration. It's the AVR that sets crossovers for different speakers.
post #385 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You can raise the crossovers, but if you lower them, you'll no longer have correction below the crossovers set by Audyssey.
The main reason why audyssey doesn't recommend lowering the crossovers is that audyssey applies more filters the lower you go in the spectrum (bass frequencies).
No, Craig is correct: lowering the crossovers isn't recommended because Audyssey doesn't correct below that point.
post #386 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

No, Craig is correct: lowering the crossovers isn't recommended because Audyssey doesn't correct below that point.

I didn't say Craig was wrong. I gave the explanation of why lowering the crossover isn't recommended.
post #387 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I didn't say Craig was wrong. I gave the explanation of why lowering the crossover isn't recommended.
That explanation was wrong
post #388 of 757
Quote:
That explanation was wrong

Then enlighten us how I was wrong so I know I was wrong. And if I am wrong, there is nothing wrong to accept I was wrong. I'm not in for a Purple Heart award on this forum that I'd miss
post #389 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Then enlighten us how I was wrong so I know I was wrong. And if I am wrong, there is nothing wrong to accept I was wrong. I'm not in for a Purple Heart award on this forum that I'd miss

"Enlighten us?" "Purple Heart?"

Anyway you said that the reason why it's bad to lower the crossover below Audyssey's recommendation is that Audyssey uses "more filters the lower you go," but the truth is closer to the opposite, as Craig John said: below its recommended crossover, Audyssey applies, not more correction, but no correction.
post #390 of 757
Quote:
Anyway you said that the reason why it's bad to lower the crossover below Audyssey's recommendation is that Audyssey uses "more filters the lower you go," but the truth is closer to the opposite, as Craig John said: below its recommended crossover, Audyssey applies, not more correction, but no correction.

First of all, Audyssey does not suggest/set crossover for any speaker. It just returns the -3dB point to AVR. AVR, in fact, sets crossover frequencies for all the speakers.

As to the lowering of crossover frequency; what I meant was Audyssey employs more filters to correct subwoofer response than it does for the mains and the rest of the speakers. If one crosses the mains lower than e.g. 90Hz that is set by avr to e.g. 70Hz after audyssey calibration, that is not good. As speakers will take over from sub from 70Hz and audyssey applies less filters for speakers' correction as opposed to the the same signal going to the sub where more filters are employed for response correction.
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