or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › One better sub or two subs
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

One better sub or two subs - Page 21

post #601 of 757
I think we all agree, so let's drop it. I apologize if you found my comments "provoking." I didn't intend them that way. They were meant to be informative.
post #602 of 757
Quote:
I think we all agree, so let's drop it. I apologize if you found my comments "provoking." I didn't intend them that way. They were meant to be informative.

I respect you for that, no worries here smile.gif
post #603 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Yes, this will show us the naked response without DEQ.

I'm not sure what you're asking. As I look at your FR graph, I see it the other way around... it looks like your speakers are lower than your subs by about 5 - 10 dB:



I would need a "full range" measurement though to be sure. There could be a recession of the frequencies from 80 to 200 Hz, that makes it look like the speakers are set lower.

Craig

The graph you are pointing out is one with gain added from subs. Plus when I was taking readings, I realized in many places speakes were stronger than subs. I was trying to figure out why that is happening and can I bring lower frequencies higher from cross-over point. I moved subs slowly closer to MLP to get best result I could and also ended up increasing gain on subs even before calibrating. That gave me graph that had even level at cross-over. Then after calibration, I increased gain on subs which ended up giving the graph that you pointed out.
post #604 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
you had plenty of headroom in the AVR sub trim
Out of curiousity, is there a range to stay within. As far as I remember, we shouldn't be decreasing sub trim in avr from the point recommended by Audyssey. I don't know how far can we increase?
post #605 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

The graph you are pointing out is one with gain added from subs. Plus when I was taking readings, I realized in many places speakes were stronger than subs. I was trying to figure out why that is happening and can I bring lower frequencies higher from cross-over point. I moved subs slowly closer to MLP to get best result I could and also ended up increasing gain on subs even before calibrating. That gave me graph that had even level at cross-over. Then after calibration, I increased gain on subs which ended up giving the graph that you pointed out.

All this changing the gain on the subs is confusing things. If you raise the gain on the subs and then re-calibrate with Audyssey, all that will happen is that Audyssey will set the subwoofer trims lower. Just do this:

Run Audyssey. The first step is to set the subs to 75 dB. Make sure that both subs are set to *exactly* the same gain settings. This is very important. One of the reasons you could be getting distortion and bottoming is that you don't have the subs "gain-matched." If one sub is set higher than the other, it will be working harder than the other and hitting its' limit before the other. If you want to make maximal use of your subwoofer *system*, it is essential that the subs be exactly gain-matched.

After running Audyssey, you should have negative subwoofer trim settings. From this point on, don't touch the subwoofer gains AT ALL! If you want to change the subwoofer levels, use the AVR subwoofer trims, (for all the reasons we discussed above, i.e., granularity of control, ability to return to original settings, etc.) In addition to those reasons, you can also communicate to us exactly how much you changed the subwoofer trims in 0.5 dB increments. Raising the subwoofer gain control "one notch" is meaningless as we have no idea how much "one notch" equals in terms of additional output.

After running Audyssey, turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ for the purpose of measurements. You can always engage it again for listening, but for measurements, we need to see the raw response.

When taking "readings" or measurements, don't concern yourself with places where you'll never listen. They don't matter, and trying to optimize those positions will only make the important positions worse. Focus on the seats you actually listen from... and forget anything else.

Craig
post #606 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Out of curiousity, is there a range to stay within. As far as I remember, we shouldn't be decreasing sub trim in avr from the point recommended by Audyssey. I don't know how far can we increase?

I generally don't recommend going above "0" in the AVR subwoofer trim. Doing so increases the possibility of over-driving the inputs of the sub amps, causing distortion. I generally try to set the sub amps so the final post-Audyssey subwoofer trim setting is about -7 to -10. This provides plenty of headroom for increasing the sub levels without ever going above "0". If you do the first step of the Audyssey run and set the SPL to around 75 dB, you'll almost always end up with -7 to -10 dB subwoofer trim, (IME).

Craig
post #607 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
All this changing the gain on the subs is confusing things. If you raise the gain on the subs and then re-calibrate with Audyssey, all that will happen is that Audyssey will set the subwoofer trims lower.

You are correct. But, I wasn't recalibrating after increasing. Process was to increase sub gain after calibration.
Quote:
Run Audyssey. The first step is to set the subs to 75 dB.
I skipped that part. I was always leaving subs gain to middle point on both.
Quote:
Make sure that both subs are set to *exactly* the same gain settings. This is very important. One of the reasons you could be getting distortion and bottoming is that you don't have the subs "gain-matched." If one sub is set higher than the other, it will be working harder than the other and hitting its' limit before the other. If you want to make maximal use of your subwoofer *system*, it is essential that the subs be exactly gain-matched.

Eadh time I made a gain change on subs, I was very careful that I do it equally on both subs. Since it was done manually, there is a good possibility that they were a bit (I mean very little) off.
Quote:
After running Audyssey, you should have negative subwoofer trim settings. From this point on, don't touch the subwoofer gains AT ALL! If you want to change the subwoofer levels, use the AVR subwoofer trims, (for all the reasons we discussed above, i.e., granularity of control, ability to return to original settings, etc.) In addition to those reasons, you can also communicate to us exactly how much you changed the subwoofer trims in 0.5 dB increments. Raising the subwoofer gain control "one notch" is meaningless as we have no idea how much "one notch" equals in terms of additional output.

I'll go through the whole process again and this time will go with increasing sub trim instead of sub gains for the very reason that it gives precise control and there is no difference in where the gain is increased from. A boost is a boost .... is a boost ... is a boost.
Quote:
After running Audyssey, turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ for the purpose of measurements. You can always engage it again for listening, but for measurements, we need to see the raw response.

Will do :-)
Quote:
When taking "readings" or measurements, don't concern yourself with places where you'll never listen. They don't matter, and trying to optimize those positions will only make the important positions worse. Focus on the seats you actually listen from... and forget anything else.
I always took readings from MLP (not left of it or right of it but at exactly the sweet spot).

This post has all very valid points to keep in mind and I'll follow them.


Braveheart: I know you suggested to increase gain on subs. Do you have are special reason to increase from subs as compared to from avr?
post #608 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I generally don't recommend going above "0" in the AVR subwoofer trim. Doing so increases the possibility of over-driving the inputs of the sub amps, causing distortion. I generally try to set the sub amps so the final post-Audyssey subwoofer trim setting is about -7 to -10. This provides plenty of headroom for increasing the sub levels without ever going above "0". If you do the first step of the Audyssey run and set the SPL to around 75 dB, you'll almost always end up with -7 to -10 dB subwoofer trim, (IME).

Craig

is that using 80 hz test tone? Also what should volume be set in avr?
Edited by SherazNJ - 11/9/13 at 1:30pm
post #609 of 757
Quote:
Braveheart: I know you suggested to increase gain on subs. Do you have are special reason to increase from subs as compared to from avr?

I usually do not go past 00 in avr sub trim level and my max is 1 o clock on the sub gain dial. If it doesn't cut it for me and more gain is required then the available subs can cleanly provide; it's time for more subs. Let me be straight in saying, if you don't get the encapsulating room filling bass with 2 subs and you end up bottoming them out; more subs are required.

Sheraz, know it that there are multiple ways to achieve same results. I have used Audyssey up to MultiEQ XT (Onkyo 809 and Denon 3313) and YPAO (Yamaha RX-V363 and Yamaha RX-V3900) for over two and half years. Something just was missing in it when it came to bass frequencies and subwoofers letting them be at the mercy of auto cal programs. I can and love to do this very part myself coz I can do it better. Not a big deal; other people can also do it themselves. There are people who love auto eq programs and there are some who prefer doing it manually. Why manually? That's coz I love preference over reference.

That's the very reason I went for $2900 avr (CA Azur 751R) coz I only needed DynamicEQ function independent of Audyssey. I set up my system manually without auto cal and just use DEQ for maintaining perceived loudness at lower volumes. And my system sounds fantastic. I won't get into subjective opinions here.

I simply do not follow the laid down best practices. Been there; done it. Know it that an audio system's biggest nemesis is the listening room more than poor calibration.
post #610 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

is that using 80 hz test tone? Also what should volume be set in avr?
When you run Audyssey, the first step is to set the subwoofer level to 75 dB. Audyssey plays a LF "noise" signal and reads out the SPL it is seeing at the measurement position. Adjust the subwoofer gain controls so Audyssey reads 75 dB. If you do that, Audyssey will generally set a negative trim level when it's done, usually in the -7 to -10 range. If you want the sub trim to be set a little lower, set the subs so the SPL reads 78 - 80. However, don't go beyond that because you could end up with the sub being "out of range" of the adjustment capability. If the sub trim is -12, it is "out of range." Lower the sub amp levels and re-run Audyssey.

If your version of Audyssey doesn't do that, then play the subwoofer test signal under the "Levels" menu. Set your SPL meter at the LP and adjust the subs so the SPL meter reads 75 dB.

Now run Audyssey.
post #611 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

When you run Audyssey, the first step is to set the subwoofer level to 75 dB. Audyssey plays a LF "noise" signal and reads out the SPL it is seeing at the measurement position. Adjust the subwoofer gain controls so Audyssey reads 75 dB. If you do that, Audyssey will generally set a negative trim level when it's done, usually in the -7 to -10 range. If you want the sub trim to be set a little lower, set the subs so the SPL reads 78 - 80. However, don't go beyond that because you could end up with the sub being "out of range" of the adjustment capability. If the sub trim is -12, it is "out of range." Lower the sub amp levels and re-run Audyssey.

If your version of Audyssey doesn't do that, then play the subwoofer test signal under the "Levels" menu. Set your SPL meter at the LP and adjust the subs so the SPL meter reads 75 dB.

Now run Audyssey.

My avr audyssey version doesn't do it but i did use spl to set each sub to 72 db and collectively they came to 75. I'll post the result shortly.
post #612 of 757
Thread Starter 
Here comes the results. I'll try to address everything here.
1 - First graph: ubs only (with 5db of diff vertically and then with smoothing applied).
2 - Audyssey result
3 - Audyssey result with Dynamics on/off (lower line is dynamic off)
4 - Increasing sub trim to lift up lower graph (from -6.5 to 0).
4 - Including DLP (no equalization applied)
5 - DPL wiht equalization.

I tried my best to get as smooth graph as I could but there was a small raise and dip.


After smoothing it was gone and we hear that so should be ok.


Now comes calibration. After Audyssey calibration, sub trim level came out to -6.5. Also you can see the diff in between Dynamic On/Off.


Increase sub trim to 0. Got a dip in between 80 and 100 of 3 db.


Now here is an interesting fact As soon as I connected DSP, it lowered graph a bit even without any filter. I don't know why but that's what REW showed.


Finally used REW EQ to get a Hard-Knee Curve. Two filters are applied and both are negetive (No positive gain).


After everything done, Sub gain is at 1 and sub trim is at 0 (from -6.5)

Below is the chart of the difference of the two (with/without DSP) to let you guys know how its changing. its easier since I can use the gross in REW to find exact difference.

Without DSP
Hz Db
80 90
70 93
60 95
50 96
44 98.8
40 98
30 96

Notice that from 40 to 30, it went down 2 db instead of going up. Also at 44, its a bit higher than 40. All these differences are lower than 3 db and based on my knowledge are not noticeable. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Without DSP
Hz Db
80 88
70 90
60 92
50 93.5
44 96.3
40 95.4
30 95.6

Notice that there is no difference in between 40hz and 30hz as of now.

There really isn't much difference in between the two (with/without dsp)and I wonder if I even need to use Dsp here. During my testing with DSP on, bass is great but in some parts it does bottom out. Without DSP, it sounds even better and no bottoming out.
Edited by SherazNJ - 11/10/13 at 3:21pm
post #613 of 757
Quote:
There really isn't much difference in between the two (with/without dsp)and I wonder if I even need to use Dsp here. During my testing with DSP on, bass is great but in some parts it does bottom out. Without DSP, it sounds even better and no bottoming out.

Sheraz,

I want you to go to the Data-Bass website and review the "baseline response" for your subs:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=88&mset=95
See all 3 pages of measurements. (I can't copy the graphs to the forum, so you'll need to visit the site to see the graphs.) Look at the Burst Test, the Basic Response, the Long Term Output, and the Compression and Distortion charts. In all those graphs, the response starts to taper at 50 Hz, and the "bad" things, (distortion/compression), start to increase at 50 Hz.

Now look at your graphs... the response begins to taper at 50 Hz. It can be assumed that the "bad" things also start to increase at 50 Hz.

Now consider that... an increase of 3 dB requires a doubling of amplifier power.

An increase of 6 dB requires a doubling of driver excursion.

Going one octave lower requires another doubling of driver excursion.

It's should be easy to see that, as you go lower and louder, you use up all the output capability of your subs, both in terms of amplifier power and driver excursion. If you're hearing "bottoming", you are clearly at the output limits of your subs. When subwoofers "bottom", there is a very strong potential for driver damage.

I know you "like" the subs hot. However, in the interest of safety, I suggest you turn your AVR subwoofer trim back down to -6.5. Then turn on Dynamic EQ. That should give you a moderate bump in the lower frequencies while being much safer for the long term health of your subs. It will also allow you to turn up the entire system without the subs being the limiting factor.

In the long term, you should consider either more, or better, subwoofers. (I am not impugning the quality or value of your current subs. This is more a statement about your own needs and desires for bass than anything about your current subs. They are great subs... within their own limits. It's just that *your* limits seem to be higher than theirs.)

Craig
post #614 of 757
He must not be getting much room gain because I have more deep bass with my 3 XV15's then I can stand. I have never bottomed my subs out nor should they botttom out due to the built in soft limiter.

Sheraz, you should take a REW sweep of your subs 1 or 2 db below where you hear them bottoming out and post the graph so we can see the output you are getting.
post #615 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Sheraz,

I want you to go to the Data-Bass website and review the "baseline response" for your subs:
http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=88&mset=95
See all 3 pages of measurements. (I can't copy the graphs to the forum, so you'll need to visit the site to see the graphs.) Look at the Burst Test, the Basic Response, the Long Term Output, and the Compression and Distortion charts. In all those graphs, the response starts to taper at 50 Hz, and the "bad" things, (distortion/compression), start to increase at 50 Hz.

Now look at your graphs... the response begins to taper at 50 Hz. It can be assumed that the "bad" things also start to increase at 50 Hz.

Now consider that... an increase of 3 dB requires a doubling of amplifier power.

An increase of 6 dB requires a doubling of driver excursion.

Going one octave lower requires another doubling of driver excursion.

It's should be easy to see that, as you go lower and louder, you use up all the output capability of your subs, both in terms of amplifier power and driver excursion. If you're hearing "bottoming", you are clearly at the output limits of your subs. When subwoofers "bottom", there is a very strong potential for driver damage.

I know you "like" the subs hot. However, in the interest of safety, I suggest you turn your AVR subwoofer trim back down to -6.5. Then turn on Dynamic EQ. That should give you a moderate bump in the lower frequencies while being much safer for the long term health of your subs. It will also allow you to turn up the entire system without the subs being the limiting factor.

In the long term, you should consider either more, or better, subwoofers. (I am not impugning the quality or value of your current subs. This is more a statement about your own needs and desires for bass than anything about your current subs. They are great subs... within their own limits. It's just that *your* limits seem to be higher than theirs.)

Craig

Craig I'll def. read them. thanks for the link. In the mean while, it was bothering me that there is a dip after 80 hz and i felt bottoming only at very loud scenes. I thought that it had to be that dip. So I started playing around again and this time I changed the distance of sub 2 feet less (from 10.5 to 8.5) and I ended up completely getting rid of the dip. Then I listened to all the scenes that were bottoming out at 6.5 (default Audyssey) and no issue. Then I switcched to 3.5. No issues. Then to 0 and again no issues what so ever. Everything was absolutely fine. I took all these 3 readings and here they are. If you see these graphs, you'll find no dips at cross over.



And this one only contains reading at -3.5 to show graph below cross-over is constantly higher cross-over .
post #616 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

He must not be getting much room gain because I have more deep bass with my 3 XV15's then I can stand. I have never bottomed my subs out nor should they botttom out due to the built in soft limiter.

Sheraz, you should take a REW sweep of your subs 1 or 2 db below where you hear them bottoming out and post the graph so we can see the output you are getting.

You are correct about the part of no room gain. From current location of my subs, I get gain around 40-60 but far less from 40-20. Audyssey does a great job bring that part up.
post #617 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post


And this one only contains reading at -3.5 to show graph below cross-over is constantly higher cross-over .

Just add miniDSP in sound chain and add 3dB negative gain at 48Hz. You will have a natural house curve with 3dB increased dynamic range.
post #618 of 757
Thread Starter 
This is a very informative link. Thanks for that. I am not very Subwoofer savy (Yet) but I think I got the hang of it.

Please note one point that all these graphs were taken at -6db volumn at avr. At that point, I can hardly watch movie and usually comfortable with -10db. With others (wife) it goes up to -12db. I'll post -10 db graph when I get home.
Quote:
It's should be easy to see that, as you go lower and louder, you use up all the output capability of your subs, both in terms of amplifier power and driver excursion. If you're hearing "bottoming", you are clearly at the output limits of your subs. When subwoofers "bottom", there is a very strong potential for driver damage.

This is a copy paste from the page you provided.
Quote:
The protection circuits in place appear to prevent any likelihood of causing damage to the unit with careless input levels or unusual low frequency content.

So, I don't think I'm putting the sub in any danger unless I misunderstood it.

I also checked out this site and this is from their distortion result
Quote:
The distortion results for the XV-15 are shown above. THD is under control during the 100dB sweep and is under 10% over the subs entire useful range.
Again my understanding is very limited but I think it means that upto 100db, sub is in complete control and infact under utilized 10%. If that's the case then the graph clearly shows that I'm not going above 100db even at -6db volume on avr.
Even in 110db test, the critical 25-80Hz bandwidth THD is still well below 10% for the most part.

I still can't pinpoint what caused that bottoming (agian it was very minor and at very loud bass scenes) but adjusting distance fixed the dip at crossover and my small testing revealed that it was not there anymore. I'll be able to do a very thorough testing tomorrow.
Edited by SherazNJ - 11/11/13 at 8:19am
post #619 of 757
For a completely different take on this "bottoming out" issue - I have, in the past, experienced what sounded like the driver bottoming out but was caused by a bad or loose cable/connection. Not saying this is what's causing your issues, but it is something else for you to check and mark off the list of possibilities.
post #620 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

For a completely different take on this "bottoming out" issue - I have, in the past, experienced what sounded like the driver bottoming out but was caused by a bad or loose cable/connection. Not saying this is what's causing your issues, but it is something else for you to check and mark off the list of possibilities.

Did it happen on selective scenes. When mine bottomed out, it would happen each time when I was watching that scene. Did that happen to you as well. I'm assuming that if its wire issue then i'd happen randomly but there is a chance of it happening on specific scenes that demand more response from wire and it fails to do so.
post #621 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Recommendation from Braveheart
I don't know that the main difference is b/w the two besides the fact that in avr you know where you started and you can always go back to that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

As I've said before, boost... is boost.... is boost. It doesn't matter where you add it. Therefore, I don't know why he would recommend that. Nonetheless, you have much "finer" control with the AVR's subwoofer trim than the subwoofer gain control. Also, as you said, it's much easier to go back to your starting point using the AVR. IIRC, you had plenty of headroom in the AVR sub trim, so that shouldn't be an issue either.

These measurements your showing, do you have Audyssey Dynamic EQ engage during these measurements? If so, turn it off so we can see the response without it.

Craig
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

All this changing the gain on the subs is confusing things. If you raise the gain on the subs and then re-calibrate with Audyssey, all that will happen is that Audyssey will set the subwoofer trims lower. Just do this:

Run Audyssey. The first step is to set the subs to 75 dB. Make sure that both subs are set to *exactly* the same gain settings. This is very important. One of the reasons you could be getting distortion and bottoming is that you don't have the subs "gain-matched." If one sub is set higher than the other, it will be working harder than the other and hitting its' limit before the other. If you want to make maximal use of your subwoofer *system*, it is essential that the subs be exactly gain-matched.

After running Audyssey, you should have negative subwoofer trim settings. From this point on, don't touch the subwoofer gains AT ALL! If you want to change the subwoofer levels, use the AVR subwoofer trims, (for all the reasons we discussed above, i.e., granularity of control, ability to return to original settings, etc.) In addition to those reasons, you can also communicate to us exactly how much you changed the subwoofer trims in 0.5 dB increments. Raising the subwoofer gain control "one notch" is meaningless as we have no idea how much "one notch" equals in terms of additional output.

After running Audyssey, turn off Audyssey Dynamic EQ for the purpose of measurements. You can always engage it again for listening, but for measurements, we need to see the raw response.

When taking "readings" or measurements, don't concern yourself with places where you'll never listen. They don't matter, and trying to optimize those positions will only make the important positions worse. Focus on the seats you actually listen from... and forget anything else.

Craig
I am a little confused...


If I recall correctly, the Gain Structure thread on HTS says that you shouldn't adjust the gain on your AVR once you've maximised your gain structure throughout the chain (up to but excluding the point of clipping) because if the AVR is putting out a signal that is becoming compressed when you up the AVR gain, that will transfer the clipping all the way through to the driver, which is bad. Whereas if you up the gain on the driver's amp, it will still be getting a 'clean' signal with no compression or clipping from the AVR, so is safer?

Or am I completely wrong?? lol
post #622 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by MemX View Post



I am a little confused...


If I recall correctly, the Gain Structure thread on HTS says that you shouldn't adjust the gain on your AVR once you've maximised your gain structure throughout the chain (up to but excluding the point of clipping) because if the AVR is putting out a signal that is becoming compressed when you up the AVR gain, that will transfer the clipping all the way through to the driver, which is bad. Whereas if you up the gain on the driver's amp, it will still be getting a 'clean' signal with no compression or clipping from the AVR, so is safer?

Or am I completely wrong?? lol
I'm not familiar with the "Gain Structure Thread" on HTS. I don't frequent that forum. Nonetheless, I don't understand why anyone would want to "maximize your gain structure." I prefer to "optimize my gain structure." To do that, I set the "system" up, (remember, it's a "system", not a set of individual gains), so that the AVR trim is at something below "0" when calibrated for Reference Level. That way the AVR is never putting out a signal that is distorted or clipped. (Even so, in a properly designed AVR, you should be able to set the trims to positive numbers and still never clip or distort the outputs. However, you may then be sending a signal that is too strong for the inputs of the subwoofer amps. If it's never above "0", it's also is never too high for the inputs on the subs.)

With the trim set below "0", I have the range between the negative trim and "0" if I want to run my subs "hot." I can turn them all the way up to "0" and not be concerned about overdriving the sub amp inputs.

The only way you would get an incorrect AVR trim is if it is "out of range." IOW, if the sub amps gains are set so high that the sub trims need to be turned DOWN more than the range of adjustment allows. I ran into this the other day. I have a friend who got a new sub. Not knowing any better, he cranked the gain on the sub all the way up, thinking that was what he should do to get everything possible out of his sub. He then ran Audyssey. It set his AVR subwoofer trim to -12, as low as it goes. He was still complaining that the bass was too loud, and overwhelming. His subwoofer trim was clearly "out of range." I adjusted the subwoofer gain down to a more reasonable level, re-ran Audyssey and it set the sub trim to -7. The bass was perfectly balanced, clean and articulate.

Bottom line, I try to never "maximize" anything, especially not the individual gain structures. I prefer to "optimize", not maximize. I also prefer "headroom."

Craig
post #623 of 757
Quote:
I am a little confused...


If I recall correctly, the Gain Structure thread on HTS says that you shouldn't adjust the gain on your AVR once you've maximised your gain structure throughout the chain (up to but excluding the point of clipping) because if the AVR is putting out a signal that is becoming compressed when you up the AVR gain, that will transfer the clipping all the way through to the driver, which is bad. Whereas if you up the gain on the driver's amp, it will still be getting a 'clean' signal with no compression or clipping from the AVR, so is safer?

Or am I completely wrong?? lol

It is not there to maximize Gain Structure; it is to maximize the dynamic range, which is increasing the headroom to the point just below clipping. Gain structure term mostly is associated when we are mixing a Pro Amp with CE gear. For example, most of DIYers use Pro Amps (Crown, Crest, Peavey, Behringer, etc) to power DIY subs, which have to be gain matched with the AVR. I also set up my iNuke 6000 DSP with Onkyo and later with Denon when I was running DIY sub. Not using em right now.
post #624 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Just add miniDSP in sound chain and add 3dB negative gain at 48Hz. You will have a natural house curve with 3dB increased dynamic range.

I thought about it but that would bring 40-60 hz area down. Isn't 30-50Hz the are that should be strongest? That's the region which hits you in the chest. In my case, instead of it going higer from 50-30, its going lower. Would it be better if 40-60 is lower than 30 to get better hit in the chest?
post #625 of 757
Thread Starter 
One point I wanted to clarify to others is that I'm not a big fan of very loud bass. But I'm looking for the strong impact from bass. Not loud but strong and clean impact of bass. Today I was listening to some music with headphone and it had great bass. It wasn't very loud but it was great bass. Does your system (braveheart, basshead,craig or all others following this thread) should similar to hearing bass in a good pair of headphone?
post #626 of 757
Quote:
I thought about it but that would bring 40-60 hz area down. Isn't 30-50Hz the are that should be strongest? That's the region which hits you in the chest. In my case, instead of it going higer from 50-30, its going lower. Would it be better if 40-60 is lower than 30 to get better hit in the chest?

You have a naturally rising House Curve with just one bump of 5-6dB around centred around 48Hz. You bring it down by half i.e. 3dB. Just add the filter and listen to the response. If it sounds a bit weak raise the sub trim level in avr coz I think you are still at -3.5dB in avr when you took that graph. Feel free to jack it up to 00.
post #627 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

One point I wanted to clarify to others is that I'm not a big fan of very loud bass. But I'm looking for the strong impact from bass. Not loud but strong and clean impact of bass. Today I was listening to some music with headphone and it had great bass. It wasn't very loud but it was great bass. Does your system (braveheart, basshead,craig or all others following this thread) should similar to hearing bass in a good pair of headphone?

I never tried headphones, but it is understandable to have good bass with headphones. As they only have to pressurize very tiny room and that is your ear canal. Since the source is too close to your ear drums, there is no dips and peaks in the bass response.
post #628 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

One point I wanted to clarify to others is that I'm not a big fan of very loud bass. But I'm looking for the strong impact from bass. Not loud but strong and clean impact of bass. Today I was listening to some music with headphone and it had great bass. It wasn't very loud but it was great bass. Does your system (braveheart, basshead,craig or all others following this thread) should similar to hearing bass in a good pair of headphone?

I really like headphones and have a few pair, but they don’t give the feel that SP does. Sometimes they’re a great option imo though.
post #629 of 757
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

One point I wanted to clarify to others is that I'm not a big fan of very loud bass. But I'm looking for the strong impact from bass. Not loud but strong and clean impact of bass. Today I was listening to some music with headphone and it had great bass. It wasn't very loud but it was great bass. Does your system (braveheart, basshead,craig or all others following this thread) should similar to hearing bass in a good pair of headphone?


Which headphones are you using?
post #630 of 757
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by booga24 View Post

Which headphones are you using?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003EM2WGG/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

These are basic headphone but still produce great sound.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › One better sub or two subs