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Official Epson EH-TW 9200 5030UB Owners' Thread - Page 19

post #541 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I would trust the observations of seasoned forum members here before I would trust the reviewer on Blu-Ray.com when it comes to cross-talk. About a year ago a reviewer came on this forum and insisted that cross-talk was a problem with the source material rather than the monitor (projector). We persuaded him to watch the movie he claimed had cross-talk problems using a DLP projector. He came back and admitted that he saw no cross-talk with the troublesome material when viewed with a DLP projector. He learned something by being open-minded enough to make an effort to substantiate his claims by taking us up on our suggestion. Now he knows it is the technology of the monitor (and how well that technology is implemented or not) that is the culprit. The Epson projectors handle 3D quite well relatively speaking; however, DLP is King when it comes to cross-talk free images (I own a 3D DLP and the Epson 6010 and 6020).
Avatar, The Hobbit, and Pacific rim have no crosstalk or ghosting on my system. That indicates to me that Media at least plays a part in the issue. Have you viewed Iron Man 3 on your DLP?
post #542 of 3011
I just received an email from my sales rep at PP, Epson told him the 5030e CAN do PIP from two HDMI sources via the transmitter box. Decision, decisions...
post #543 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Who was that reviewer? I'm glad someone listened to 3D users "in the trenches." I never understood the reluctance. Proving to yourself that ghosting is not in the content is so simple: watch on a DLP projector the discs that you think have ghosting imbedded in the video; if you don't see ghosting (which you won't), then the content doesn't have it. I've gone so far as to extract left and right streams from 3D video, which also proves there's no ghosting in the content. It's possible to put "ghosting" deliberately in 3D, but that's only been done to try to reduce the appearance of ghosting with very challenging content (i.e. content with high contrast subject matter). But it's a "two wrongs make a right" mentality. You shoot 3D in such a way that it's guaranteed to produce visible ghosting on just about everything but DLP and then try to fix it by "neutralizing" the high contrast. It works to a certain extent, but watching on a completely ghost free display reveals what they're trying to disguise.

Oh, we should also add OLED to the short list of displays that can be completely ghost free. A totally ghost free 3D image is a thing of beauty. IMO 3D (and its demands on display technology) has pushed the manufacturers to improve their products in general. "Ghosting" exists for 2D as well as 3D, in the sense that panels that don't refresh fast enough cause blurring. It's just less obvious in 2D. Blur a 2D image and it looks a little softer. Ghosting in a 3D film scrambles the whole image.
Why would they "shoot 3D in such a way that it's guaranteed to produce visible ghosting on just about everything but DLP and then try to fix it by "neutralizing" the high contrast" That doesn't make sense to me. Stereoscopy is fairly simple, what is it that DLP actually does differently in handling the signal?
post #544 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by rprice54 View Post

I just received an email from my sales rep at PP, Epson told him the 5030e CAN do PIP from two HDMI sources via the transmitter box. Decision, decisions...

Yes it has split screen mode: http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Product.do?sku=V11H585020
Reply
Reply
post #545 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Yes it has split screen mode: http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Product.do?sku=V11H585020

But you can only use two HDMI using the wireless transmitter. You can not run two HDMI into the back of the projector and still use split screen.
post #546 of 3011
I finally got my 5030UB unboxed after sitting in the box for a week. I'm glad to report the unit I've received is very sharp and alignment is darn near perfect. Maybe off a pixel or two but not at all noticeable in normal viewing. My question is does the FI and Super Resolution for 3D only work for Blu-Ray 3D movies? I have a bunch of SBS mkv movies that is feed of a htpc and the options are inactive when I have 3D on.
post #547 of 3011
Yes, it was reported in this thread a while ago. FI and SR only work in 3D for 1080p 24Hz material.

And if your convergence is off by a pixel or more, it's worth trying the Panel Alignment feature to fix it.
post #548 of 3011
So, So far for 3d your best bet is to use 3D Blue Ray disc's? Does this mean that a digital 3d file from an HTPC won't work at all or just not as well? Kind of a bummer because I love keeping the clutter down and not having discs all over the place. But I can just redbox a 3d movie when in the mood for one. I'm new to this projector but looking forward to purchaseing my first hopefully this year!

Also on the split screen thing you can't run 2 hdmi cables and have it work? You can only use it if your running one cable and one wireless HDMI? Seems odd. Or am I way off base on that? PIP would be cool but not a deal breaker for me. So I'm not sure if it would be worth it for the E series. Although I suppose it would be nice to have as a backup if your cable has issues. I'm old school and still prefer to go wired when ever possible.
post #549 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbleypeg View Post

Why would they "shoot 3D in such a way that it's guaranteed to produce visible ghosting on just about everything but DLP and then try to fix it by "neutralizing" the high contrast" That doesn't make sense to me. Stereoscopy is fairly simple, what is it that DLP actually does differently in handling the signal?

This is an old topic, but here's a quick summary. DLP panels are much faster than the quickest LCD/SXRD/LCOS panels. This basically guarantees a completely x-talk free image, regardless of how difficult the content is (high contrast images with hard transitions stand out the most if the display is vulnerable to it).

If you want to see instant x-talk on the 5030, put on a 3D bluray that is in scope format and turn on sub-titles, you will see the crosstalk. This would be flawless on any DLP, even the $500 Acer 5360.

The good news is, the 5030 is overall great in 3D and adding the FI was a big feature which works well.. ~1100+ lumens in 3D Cinema mode with excellent color & contrast through the glasses makes this a good bargain for those that like 3D. The RF glasses are also excellent, I prefer these over the Sony and JVC factory glasses.

I watched a 4 hour marathon of 3D last night. I have access to 90+ different 3D titles and was randomly jumping between scenes. Overall I'm impressed so far and I've seen quite a few 3D projectors. I don't know if this will change as the lamp ages as has been reported with the older models, we'll have to wait and see. But out of the box performance in 3D is very good so far.
post #550 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by gec5741 View Post

So, So far for 3d your best bet is to use 3D Blue Ray disc's? Does this mean that a digital 3d file from an HTPC won't work at all or just not as well? Kind of a bummer because I love keeping the clutter down and not having discs all over the place. But I can just redbox a 3d movie when in the mood for one. I'm new to this projector but looking forward to purchaseing my first hopefully this year!

Answer to your first question is a yes, according to others. Answer to your second question is you will still be able to watch digital 3d movies from HTPC, just like you would with the 5020. I tested it out this morning but was unable to get the FI or SR to work. However, for me, the 3D when viewing the SBS mkv files are still pretty good.
post #551 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by gec5741 View Post

So, So far for 3d your best bet is to use 3D Blue Ray disc's? Does this mean that a digital 3d file from an HTPC won't work at all or just not as well? Kind of a bummer because I love keeping the clutter down and not having discs all over the place. But I can just redbox a 3d movie when in the mood for one. I'm new to this projector but looking forward to purchaseing my first hopefully this year!

There's 3 kinds of 3D digital files you can play on the HTPC or the various media devices. (Mede8ter is my device of choice these days)

1. Full ISO - 1:1 copy of the disk, several programs can play these back on an HTPC with a 3D capable card (inexpensive Nvidia GT430 works fine).

2. Full HD MKV - MakeMKV can pull the full 3D MVC file from the original ISO + HD audio. So you end up with a single MKV file with the ful 3D stream + lossless audio. This can help save a lot of space since you are only extracting the movie, skipping all the extras on the disk. This is how I do it and have very fast random access to a large # of 2D and 3D titles.

3. SBS files - found all over the internet, small in size, average in PQ, I personally dislike SBS and don't bother with them. My screen is too big and the 1/2 res files look too soft for my preferences. Either full 3D or I'd sooner watch the movie in 2D.

the FI in 3D works very well so I would go with full 3D res to make sure this feature is enabled.

send me a PM if you have any specific questions.
post #552 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by gec5741 View Post

... Does this mean that a digital 3d file from an HTPC won't work at all or just not as well? ...

Also on the split screen thing you can't run 2 hdmi cables and have it work? You can only use it if your running one cable and one wireless HDMI?

3D files from an HTPC can work, but they have to be output at 1080p 24Hz.

projectorreviews.com posted their first look review of the 4030, and they state that PIP works for two HDMI inputs (and they didn't test the wireless version). Not sure if split screen has different requirements than PIP.
post #553 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawei213 View Post

I finally got my 5030UB unboxed after sitting in the box for a week. I'm glad to report the unit I've received is very sharp and alignment is darn near perfect. Maybe off a pixel or two but not at all noticeable in normal viewing. My question is does the FI and Super Resolution for 3D only work for Blu-Ray 3D movies? I have a bunch of SBS mkv movies that is feed of a htpc and the options are inactive when I have 3D on.

What frequency is your HTPC outputting? 24Hz?

post #554 of 3011
Can someone test split screen or PIP using the two HDMI inputs? This would save me a bunch of dough because I want the PIP for football season.
post #555 of 3011
I think I'll run 2 HDMI cables off the bat as I'm in the building phase now and getting ready to run cables. This way even if I can't do a pip I'll have an extra HDMI run as a backup.

thanks for the 3d Info as well! I run plex from A PC now. Was looking at an Intel NUC (Next Unit of Computing) to use as the plex client. I'm not sure however if the video would be able to handle 3d. I'll have to do some more research.

That mediator looks interesting. I may have to PM you regarding that device if you don't mine Zombie.
post #556 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

This is an old topic, but here's a quick summary. DLP panels are much faster than the quickest LCD/SXRD/LCOS panels. This basically guarantees a completely x-talk free image, regardless of how difficult the content is (high contrast images with hard transitions stand out the most if the display is vulnerable to it).

If you want to see instant x-talk on the 5030, put on a 3D bluray that is in scope format and turn on sub-titles, you will see the crosstalk. This would be flawless on any DLP, even the $500 Acer 5360.

The good news is, the 5030 is overall great in 3D and adding the FI was a big feature which works well.. ~1100+ lumens in 3D Cinema mode with excellent color & contrast through the glasses makes this a good bargain for those that like 3D. The RF glasses are also excellent, I prefer these over the Sony and JVC factory glasses.

I watched a 4 hour marathon of 3D last night. I have access to 90+ different 3D titles and was randomly jumping between scenes. Overall I'm impressed so far and I've seen quite a few 3D projectors. I don't know if this will change as the lamp ages as has been reported with the older models, we'll have to wait and see. But out of the box performance in 3D is very good so far.

Bottom line for me and many others who simultaneously own both DLP and other types of 3D projectors is that DLP is ghost-free, while all the others will, to some degree, show some ghosting in high contrast scenes. Some people are criticizing the source material as being ghost prone when it is not warranted. There are a lot of other reasons about which to criticize source material; however, ghosting isn't one of them. I don't like it that I presently own two 3D projectors which are not ghost-free, but that's life and I bought them knowing this. They have some attributes with which most DLPs can't compete.
post #557 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbleypeg View Post

Why would they "shoot 3D in such a way that it's guaranteed to produce visible ghosting on just about everything but DLP and then try to fix it by "neutralizing" the high contrast" That doesn't make sense to me. Stereoscopy is fairly simple, what is it that DLP actually does differently in handling the signal?

As Jason said, this is an old discussion. Basically, DLP and OLED displays switch each of the pixels in a frame from fully off to fully on (or vice versa) incredibly fast. LCD and LCoS (and even plasma) can't do that fast enough to be completely ghost free. In other words, a 3D signal needs to be able to put up completely different frames for each eye quicker than the display can accommodate the changes. People may think that this doesn't affect 2D, but it does. For 2D, it's less noticeable, but you see it as a blurring or smearing of the image during fast motion. This is exaggerated for 3D because objects on the screen are in different places for the left and right eye views. You can spot the switching weaknesses of LCD and LCoS in 3D without any fast movement at all. And if there is fast motion, we may see ghosting as well as blurring - a double whammy for image quality. DLP technology uses tiny mirrors to get the image to the screen. These mirrors can switch fast enough that the old frame is completely gone before a new one is projected. For OLED, the pixels can change fast enough to accomplish the same thing. No blurring, no ghosting - just clean, smooth 3D, which is much easier on the eyes.
post #558 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

As Jason said, this is an old discussion. Basically, DLP and OLED displays switch each of the pixels in a frame from fully off to fully on (or vice versa) incredibly fast. LCD and LCoS (and even plasma) can't do that fast enough to be completely ghost free. In other words, a 3D signal needs to be able to put up completely different frames for each eye quicker than the display can accommodate the changes. People may think that this doesn't affect 2D, but it does. For 2D, it's less noticeable, but you see it as a blurring or smearing of the image during fast motion. This is exaggerated for 3D because objects on the screen are in different places for the left and right eye views. You can spot the switching weaknesses of LCD and LCoS in 3D without any fast movement at all. And if there is fast motion, we may see ghosting as well as blurring - a double whammy for image quality. DLP technology uses tiny mirrors to get the image to the screen. These mirrors can switch fast enough that the old frame is completely gone before a new one is projected. For OLED, the pixels can change fast enough to accomplish the same thing. No blurring, no ghosting - just clean, smooth 3D, which is much easier on the eyes.

So simply put, you are saying the 5030 is not going to be a great 3d projector because it is LCD and not DLP? Sounds like most on the thread have been very positive on the 3d capabilities of the 5030. Is there a projector that is DLP in the same price range that is superior for 3d (guessing there are maybe some trade offs?)
post #559 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolRebel View Post

So simply put, you are saying the 5030 is not going to be a great 3d projector because it is LCD and not DLP? Sounds like most on the thread have been very positive on the 3d capabilities of the 5030. Is there a projector that is DLP in the same price range that is superior for 3d (guessing there are maybe some trade offs?)

I'm not saying that at all. I've owned lots of DLP projectors, and I like my Epson 6010 better than any of them. The contrast is better. And the ghosting on the 6010 is better in most ways than any other 3D display I've owned (which is 7 or 8). It's just not perfect. Ghosting performance is only one quality I look for in a projector. The Epson is my favorite display of the last decade, but there's room for improvement. When Jason is finished with the Epson 5030 he has for review, it's being shipped to me. biggrin.gif
post #560 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUV1977 View Post

In some review I read - to my surprise - that the wireless in the 5020 did not increase lag. I will try to find the review tomorrow. I don't see why it would increase the lag by 50 or 100% but I would certainly expect some milliseconds.

EDIT:
Here you go:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/game-projector-blog/review-epson-5020e-projector.html

EDIT 2: This was not the review I meant. It looks like he was even measuring it wrong. But I definately read the same thing in a real review. Will look for it tomorrow (unless someonme else is faster).

Not a problem, take a look at the new BenQ W1500 it is a good example of how wireless HDMI output can increase input lag:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/benq_w1500_home_theater_projector_review.htm?page=Performance
post #561 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post


I'm not saying that at all. I've owned lots of DLP projectors, and I like my Epson 6010 better than any of them. The contrast is better. And the ghosting on the 6010 is better in most ways than any other 3D display I've owned (which is 7 or 8). It's just not perfect. Ghosting performance is only one quality I look for in a projector. The Epson is my favorite display of the last decade, but there's room for improvement. When Jason is finished with the Epson 5030 he has for review, it's being shipped to me. biggrin.gif

Awesome, good to hear. Sorry didn't mean to misrepresent what you were saying, just trying to understand =]

 

It does seem like people generally feel that for the price range, this projector is hard to beat across the board. Loking forward to my house reno being done so I can set mine up!

post #562 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolRebel View Post

Awesome, good to hear. Sorry didn't mean to misrepresent what you were saying, just trying to understand =]

It does seem like people generally feel that for the price range, this projector is hard to beat across the board. Loking forward to my house reno being done so I can set mine up!

I think you'll be very happy with it.
post #563 of 3011
Well, decision made. My 5030 just shipped! I'll test the PIP when it gets here. I need to run two new hdmi cables anyways. One from my pre-3D AVR and one from the Oppo 103 for 3D. HOPEFULLY I can use the inputs on the oppo for PIP (cable signal from avr and Espn on my AppleTV through the oppo).
post #564 of 3011
I do not get it :-/

Will I be able to run ripped 3D material if it's done the right way I'm not talking about SBS... If I rip it in 24hz etc or will FI and Super Resolution for 3D only work for Blu-Ray 3D movies? Discs I mean? I use an Oppo that I haven't updated, It swallows everything!
Edited by Vanderluck - 10/22/13 at 2:51pm
post #565 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolRebel View Post

So simply put, you are saying the 5030 is not going to be a great 3d projector because it is LCD and not DLP? Sounds like most on the thread have been very positive on the 3d capabilities of the 5030. Is there a projector that is DLP in the same price range that is superior for 3d (guessing there are maybe some trade offs?)

As with any technology there is trade offs.

1. First off your Contrast Ratio with DLP won't be as high.
2. Your dynamic color saturation won't be as high on DLP.
post #566 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGriffin View Post

As with any technology there is trade offs.

1. First off your Contrast Ratio with DLP won't be as high.
2. Your dynamic color saturation won't be as high on DLP.

I wanted to buy a DLP projector to try out especially based on ghost free 3D, always had LCD projectors, but ended up with an Epson 6010 based on a huge factor I'm glad I found out about before I bought the DLP, LENS SHIFT! My room aesthetically NEEDS a ceiling mount projector and it was impossible due to very limited vertical lens shift on any of the DLPs I looked at. I cannot remember all of the details but if one is doing a 2.35:1 setup switching between 16:9 and 2.35:1 I recall that had issues with DLP as well re: lens shift needed. I just ran into a bunch of problems with DLP that I didn't have to worry about with the Epson 6010.
post #567 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

I wanted to buy a DLP projector to try out especially based on ghost free 3D, always had LCD projectors, but ended up with an Epson 6010 based on a huge factor I'm glad I found out about before I bought the DLP, LENS SHIFT! My room aesthetically NEEDS a ceiling mount projector and it was impossible due to very limited vertical lens shift on any of the DLPs I looked at. I cannot remember all of the details but if one is doing a 2.35:1 setup switching between 16:9 and 2.35:1 I recall that had issues with DLP as well re: lens shift needed. I just ran into a bunch of problems with DLP that I didn't have to worry about with the Epson 6010.

Great to hear as that is pretty much going to be my exact set up. Ceiling mount and going from 16:9 to 2:35 1. Thanks for the input.
Edited by SolRebel - 10/24/13 at 11:43am
post #568 of 3011

A bit of story behind this one, but, the ending is GREAT - having bought a 5030 from Best Buy tonight, I am joining the club!  As soon as it gets here.  Ohhhh.. the best part - $2027 + taxes.  Not an Open Box item.  Yippee!!

 

-phillip

post #569 of 3011
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

If you want to see instant x-talk on the 5030, put on a 3D bluray that is in scope format and turn on sub-titles, you will see the crosstalk.

Just a question...
I imagine that the subtitles would show a little cross talk, but using subtitles shouldn't effect other parts of the image, right? Like causing ghosting in faces and the background?
post #570 of 3011
Thanx @jmalto. That sounds pretty bad. Couldn't find the other review yet.

@whokilledkaji

No, the subtitles show crosstalk because they are very high contrast. They don't affect other parts of the image. Every part of the image that had contrasts as strong as text will show the same problem, but usually there is no strict white on black... I did have a DLP-projector here and there was really close to no cross-talk which was great but the rainbow-effect made it impossible for me to keep it.
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