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Another reason a small video camera is good

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 
There are lots of small cameras (and one small camcorder - the Sony GW77) now, that take really good video. Their advantage is that you can carry them around, and use them opportunistically (including avoiding boredom when that is the only alternative). Here is a video example: the airport experience of a flight delay.

https://vimeo.com/74603217

This depicts the experience at a bare-bones air terminal of a surprise 8-hour weather-induced flight delay. The sudden announcement; the available food, drink and entertainment; the lines; getting help on re-arrangements; locating power; waiting and waiting; amenities closing time and final getaway.

Frequent travelers may particularly appreciate this

Shot with the EOS M and the Canon EF 35mm 2.0 IS USM lens.

Participants here may remember the video of a rain-induced train delay, taken with the GW77: http://youtu.be/jcVqkNeDP3I
post #2 of 30
So the film was taken with http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/canon-eos-m-1089580/review
by yourself ? the footage looks good ,but i found M&A a problem on a 550D/T2i i owned and even worse on a GH2 is the EOS M better in this respect.


Is this https://vimeo.com/72225369 yours ? the colors look VG but i am not sure i can live without a viewfinder,outdoors even with the good screen on my cam i have to guess and use the viewfinder.
Edited by flintyplus - 9/17/13 at 1:52am
post #3 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

So the film was taken with http://www.techradar.com/reviews/cameras-and-camcorders/cameras/digital-slrs-hybrids/canon-eos-m-1089580/review
by yourself ? the footage looks good ,but i found M&A a problem on a 550D/T2i i owned and even worse on a GH2 is the EOS M better in this respect.


Is this https://vimeo.com/72225369 yours ? the colors look VG but i am not sure i can live without a viewfinder,outdoors even with the good screen on my cam i have to guess and use the viewfinder.

All these videos are mine, taken with the EOS M. There is occasional moire, but very rare (not seen in these videos). I do not have anything to compare it to, since I have mostly used small-sensor cameras before. The LCD is unusually good in bright sunlight, but it would take getting used to if you if you are used to a viewfinder.
post #4 of 30
After downloading and watching your films i am thinking of getting one as a pocket camera,is an nd filter used on all your films and is the footage ungraded.
post #5 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

After downloading and watching your films i am thinking of getting one as a pocket camera,is an nd filter used on all your films and is the footage ungraded.

Yes, for all outdoors shots I use an ND filter. All the video is straight from the camera, and not re-compressed (just cut and merged). All but one video uses 'Standard" Picture Style, a camera setting. There are other (many) in-camera options to give the video "looks", and 'Neutral' may work best indoors (less contrasty but still good color).

The audio is unusually good (full manual control, and uncompressed PCM 16-bit 48Hz).
post #6 of 30
Nice shots. Without arguing against "small cameras" I would still note that the EOS M is small only when there is no lens attached to it. Granted, you made all the shots with just one relatively short lens, but normally 35mm fixed lens is not enough, so you either need several lenses and bother with switching them, or you need a single mega-zoom lens, and a good zoom lens would be large, heavy and expensive. And since the EOS M lineup has only three lenses made specifically for this new mount, you would have to get EF/EF-S mount for at least $140 (yay, freaking cheap, it was $200+ I believe), which will also lengthen the whole setup. Not exactly a small camera IMO.

(With 1.6 crop factor the 35 lens should be usable for many around-town shots though.).

This is why I am waiting for a camera that is:

* relatively compact
* has non-removable zoom lens with decent range, say at least 8x, with image stabilizer. I don't want a hassle to replace lenses and to carry them around. I am willing to lose some quality for convenience.
* has reasonably large sensor, although anything larger than 2/3-inch would probabably be ok
* has manual focus ring - a must, whatever touch-focus lovers may say
* has Both 60p and native 24p with reasonable bitrate (having 25/50fps ability would be a nice touch, my D3200 has it)
* has mic input
* has high-res tilting screen, which is NOT touch-sensitive OR which allows to turn touch-sense off, in favor of regular buttons.
* Ability to shoot videos longer than 30 minutes
* $500 or less would be great

Of course, I could get the EOS M for $300 + $140 for adapter + 50mm lens for $100 and shut up ;-) But I figured that switching from Nikon to Canon lenses was a bigger pain, so I did not.
Edited by Ungermann - 9/17/13 at 10:42am
post #7 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Nice shots. Without arguing against "small cameras" I would still note that the EOS M is small only when there is no lens attached to it. Granted, you made all the shots with just one relatively short lens, but normally 35mm fixed lens is not enough, so you either need several lenses and bother with switching them, or you need a single mega-zoom lens, and a good zoom lens would be large, heavy and expensive. And since the EOS M lineup has only three lenses made specifically for this new mount, you would have to get EF/EF-S mount for at least $140 (yay, freaking cheap, it was $200+ I believe), which will also lengthen the whole setup. Not exactly a small camera IMO.

(With 1.6 crop factor the 35 lens should be usable for many around-town shots though.).

This is why I am waiting for a camera that is:

* relatively compact
* has non-removable zoom lens with decent range, say at least 8x, with image stabilizer. I don't want a hassle to replace lenses and to carry them around. I am willing to lose some quality for convenience.
* has reasonably large sensor, although anything larger than 2/3-inch would probabably be ok
* has manual focus ring - a must, whatever touch-focus lovers may say
* has Both 60p and native 24p with reasonable bitrate (having 25/50fps ability would be a nice touch, my D3200 has it)
* has mic input
* has high-res tilting screen, which is NOT touch-sensitive OR which allows to turn touch-sense off, in favor of regular buttons.
* Ability to shoot videos longer than 30 minutes
* $500 or less would be great

Of course, I could get the EOS M for $300 + $140 for adapter + 50mm lens for $100 and shut up ;-) But I figured that switching from Nikon to Canon lenses was a bigger pain, so I did not.

Your arithmetic is right and your wishes are mine, BUT 1. You left out large aperture (for low light - that is absolutely critical no matter what the sensor size). Combining an 8X zoom that is large aperture (at least f2.0 or even f2.8 throughout) and has OIS with a big sensor means - a very big lens. The NEX and the EOS M show you can shrink the camera body size to pocketable (as you say), but the lenses are still big (the NEX plus lens almost looks absurd). It is just physics.

You are never going to get a lens/body combo that is smaller that gets you what you want. The EOS M (and the NEX) come as close as I think is possible, ever (their AF, video resolution and artifact performance can be improved over time) to meeting all your requirements.

My EOS M complete kit is the 35mm (equivalent 56mm) f2.0, for low light (indoors, night), and the 18-135mm (29-216mm) IS STM zoom for everything else. Can't carry any of this in my pocket, but it still fits in a small bag. For short trips, I carry one set or another depending on whether I will be indoors or out. For travel, one set on me, one lens in the suitcase.

If you find a pocketable camera with all your requirements (plus large aperture lens even at full extension and good audio), let us all know.
Edited by markr041 - 9/17/13 at 7:25pm
post #8 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

There are lots of small cameras (and one small camcorder - the Sony GW77) now, that take really good video. Their advantage is that you can carry them around, and use them opportunistically (including avoiding boredom when that is the only alternative). Here is a video example: the airport experience of a flight delay.

https://vimeo.com/74603217

This depicts the experience at a bare-bones air terminal of a surprise 8-hour weather-induced flight delay. The sudden announcement; the available food, drink and entertainment; the lines; getting help on re-arrangements; locating power; waiting and waiting; amenities closing time and final getaway.

Everything in the background is out of focus!
post #9 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Everything in the background is out of focus!

Gotta get it fixed...
post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Gotta get it fixed...
Is it still under warranty?
post #11 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Is it still under warranty?

Actually, maybe a class action suit: deficient depth of field; seems to affect all these DSLR and mirrorless camcorder wannabees.
post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Gotta get it fixed...

Is this the normal banter,or an opinion change.
post #13 of 30
Thread Starter 
Just banter. I am really enjoying the M, and its video.
post #14 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

Is this the normal banter,or an opinion change.
From my point of view it is "camera envy". My cameras are not very good at selective focus.
post #15 of 30
Well i got mine today,just a few tests,slightly concerned that moire & alising showing a fair bit,and the IS is nothing like as good as my cams.But its early days but i dont understand why there are no white balance presets [sunlight ]etc i cant remember a camera or camcorder without them.
Edited by flintyplus - 9/21/13 at 2:59pm
post #16 of 30
My favorite website for evaluating the landscape video quality of different still cameras that shoot video is Gordon Laing’s Vimeo site: https://vimeo.com/user803551/videos/page:18/sort:date/format:thumbnail
Here are screen shots of the video footage of various brands and models of cameras and as you can see, the Canon EOS M performed poorly against the others:

CANON: Realistic colors, but video image is soft, lacking detail

Rebel t4i: http://imageshack.com/a/img24/9821/fxa9.jpg
EOS-M: http://imageshack.com/a/img196/8246/xbtl.jpg

SONY:  Good colors though not as realistic as Canon and video image is also soft, though not as soft as Canon:

RX100: http://imageshack.com/a/img708/5745/yhn6.jpg
NEX6: http://imageshack.com/a/img513/9750/pc7t.jpg

PANASONIC: Somewhat unrealistic colors with overly saturated greens that have an annoying yellowish tinge.
Sharper video image than than Canon or Sony:

GH3: http://imageshack.com/a/img69/3876/gcsn.jpg
GF6: http://imageshack.com/a/img209/8757/1got.jpg

NIKON DSLR:  Appealing though slightly less realistic colors than Canon, but sharper, more detailed video image
than Canon:
D7100: http://imageshack.com/a/img40/74/3qec.jpg

OLYMPUS: Rich film like colors
Sharp, detailed video images:

E-M5: http://imageshack.com/a/img819/3549/n10p.jpg
E-P5: http://imageshack.com/a/img600/5715/3lvb.jpg
E-PL5: http://imageshack.com/a/img34/9658/b28y.jpg

OVERALL WINNER IMHO: OLYMPUS
Edited by SD90 - 9/21/13 at 8:55pm
post #17 of 30
iF clever dick Lang put on some full videos like Mark https://vimeo.com/search/page:1/sort:relevant/format:thumbnail?q=Mark+Rosenzweig+EOS+M it would be better to evaluate instead of short shaky pans,i dont know where the soft video is coming from mine is not soft but i will do tests.
Edited by flintyplus - 9/22/13 at 12:38am
post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 
There are wb presets - the Q menu. This is in addition to wb offsets and custom wb.
post #19 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

There are wb presets - the Q menu. This is in addition to wb offsets and custom wb.

Thanks
post #20 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

iF clever dick Lang put on some full videos like Mark https://vimeo.com/search/page:1/sort:relevant/format:thumbnail?q=Mark+Rosenzweig+EOS+M it would be better to evaluate instead of short shaky pans,i dont know where the soft video is coming from mine is not soft but i will do tests.

Card tests have shown me it cant resolve the virtical or horizontal resolution of my HF-G30 in the 24Mbps mode i use, but more than my FZ150 in 50P mode,directly in the middle i would say ,HF-G30s are not credited with great resolution by some,but the overall look of the film also matters.
post #21 of 30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqVWULgZAZs First footage,its not too impressive on youtube,Overcast fairly dull,clearly not as good as some EOS M footage,any comments & tips welcome.
post #22 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqVWULgZAZs First footage,its not too impressive on youtube,Overcast fairly dull,clearly not as good as some EOS M footage,any comments & tips welcome.

I cannot get this to play.
post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

I cannot get this to play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqVWULgZAZs it plays for me eek.gif
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjt0voX51NgYpNBec5oBfmg?feature=mhee do none of these play
post #24 of 30
Thread Starter 
Plays now, thanks. smile.gif

It seems you need to focus before you start shooting - many shots started out of focus and became in focus (and sometimes not then). What focus setting was used?You really have to work with the camera's settings, depending on what you are shooting. Three are three AF types alone. Did you try focus tracking? single point? movie servo engaged?

For static subjects, use single point AF and point where you want the camera to focus, disengage movie servo, half-press the shutter to get focus and then press the red button. For moving objects, you want focus tracking, engage movie servo (the default is engaged) and use your finger to point where you want to focus. Then half-press the shutter and then start shooting. If you do not half-press the shutter, then the camera will focus after you press the red button sometimes.

The key point is you have to tell the camera where you want it to focus. A lot of the shots simply were out of focus and I could not tell what you wanted to be in focus. This is a big sensor camera, with shallow dof. Shooting with small-sensor camcorders, so that everything is in focus anyway, one does not have to care about focus point very much. With this camera you do. It is NOT a p&s camera. It cannot be used casually like a small-sensor camcorder. There are real benefits, but that requires more work. And, its comparative advantage is not landscapes, which are the majority of your shots, where shallow dof is not desirable.
Edited by markr041 - 9/23/13 at 11:59am
post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Plays now, thanks. smile.gif

It seems you need to focus before you start shooting - many shots started out of focus and became in focus (and sometimes not then). What focus setting was used?You really have to work with the camera's settings, depending on what you are shooting. Three are three AF types alone. Did you try focus tracking? single point? movie servo engaged?

For static subjects, use single point AF and point where you want the camera to focus, disengage movie servo, half-press the shutter to get focus and then press the red button. For moving objects, you want focus tracking, engage movie servo (the default is engaged) and use your finger to point where you want to focus. Then half-press the shutter and then start shooting. If you do not half-press the shutter, then the camera will focus after you press the red button sometimes.

The key point is you have to tell the camera where you want it to focus. A lot of the shots simply were out of focus and I could not tell what you wanted to be in focus. This is a big sensor camera, with shallow dof. Shooting with small-sensor camcorders, so that everything is in focus anyway, one does not have to care about focus point very much. With this camera you do. It is NOT a p&s camera. It cannot be used casually like a small-sensor camcorder. There are real benefits, but that requires more work. And, its comparative advantage is not landscapes, which are the majority of your shots, where shallow dof is not desirable.

something seems to have gone wrong with my youtube,now when i play the film it all looks out of focus,and its not out of focus on BD disc or direct play ,focus is not the problem i have everything is as focused as it is normaly,my problem is getting steady footage without a tripod.Anyway without seeing the footage off youtube i cant show it.,Thanks for the reply.

Edit i was worried reading that so i checked the disc again and apart from a couple of times when focus was a bit slow there is no out of focus,realy cant understand youtube its as if my film wont work in HD,for me the thing i dislike most is the amount of M & A
Edited by flintyplus - 9/23/13 at 3:01pm
post #26 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqVWULgZAZs First footage,its not too impressive on youtube,Overcast fairly dull,clearly not as good as some EOS M footage,any comments & tips welcome.
Footage looks real good to me. Colors look more natural than my Panasonic LX7 for sure and the video image is brighter than any Panasonic camcorder including the $1,000 X920 and $2,000 AC90.
post #27 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD90 View Post

Footage looks real good to me. Colors look more natural than my Panasonic LX7 for sure and the video image is brighter than any Panasonic camcorder including the $1,000 X920 and $2,000 AC90.

I agree. The colors from the Canon make the Panasonic camera and camcorder videos look dull, or off.
post #28 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

something seems to have gone wrong with my youtube,now when i play the film it all looks out of focus,and its not out of focus on BD disc or direct play ,focus is not the problem i have everything is as focused as it is normaly,my problem is getting steady footage without a tripod.Anyway without seeing the footage off youtube i cant show it.,Thanks for the reply.

Edit i was worried reading that so i checked the disc again and apart from a couple of times when focus was a bit slow there is no out of focus,realy cant understand youtube its as if my film wont work in HD,for me the thing i dislike most is the amount of M & A

The focus not look right on Youtube. Could you upload to Vimeo (it's free)? And you can upload the highest resolution file. I have found Vimeo to give more reliable results. There is M&A for sure; all one can do is avoid situations where it will be a problem, but if most of the kinds of video you shoot cannot do that, well... In what I shoot it has not really been a problem.
post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

The focus not look right on Youtube. Could you upload to Vimeo (it's free)? And you can upload the highest resolution file. I have found Vimeo to give more reliable results. There is M&A for sure; all one can do is avoid situations where it will be a problem, but if most of the kinds of video you shoot cannot do that, well... In what I shoot it has not really been a problem.

Sorry no i can only get free 720P Vimeo here and my space is full until sunday,consdering it was dull i am fairly happy with the cameras results.

I have just tried youtube again and it plays in focus but all stuttery and its not my broadband mad.gif
post #30 of 30
https://vimeo.com/76847612

This was filmed mostly with my FH-G30,also a Canon TC-58C 2X lens convertor realy meant for the G9,giving nearly 1200mm reach ,so some resoultion may be lost and minimising shake is hard for me,there is a small amount of hand held EOS M footage,the EOS M was carried for stills,but it mixes fairly well despite me struggling with it hand held at present,also i get some aperture shift on auto.The last 3 frames are EOS M/HF-G30/& EOS M
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