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Keep the old or get new?

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
I am about done redoing my sound system. I now have a 9.1 system with RTi A7's for the fronts, CSi A6 in the center, RTi A1's for front wides & Monitor 50's for the sides & rears. My sub is a older Velodyne CT-120 that still works fine. AV Receiver driving this stuff is a SR7008. Room size is 2900 cubic feet. Listening is about half & half movies & music. While I do like bass, I am 69 years old & not into the younger generations music. I don't listen at high volume. (trying to save what hearing I have left smile.gif ) The sub works fine for movies for my tastes.

My question is will I gain anything worth while by getting a new sub for music. I am considering a SVS SB-1000 & might be willing to go for 2 of them if I felt the sound quality improved enough. The 7's aren't bad for bass, but more would be nice. If I increase the output from the current sub, I have to be very careful to keep it from becoming muddy.

Does anyone have any personal experience along these lines & able to offer some insight?
post #2 of 31
I think I would look at the SB-12NSD. SVS has B-Stock for 599.00 that comes with the standard 5yr warranty.
post #3 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

Does anyone have any personal experience along these lines & able to offer some insight?

Not quite as much experience as you but I find things pretty much continue to get worse as you age so there's nothing to worry about. As toes and ears fall off, Crazy Glue works a treat. By the time your ninety, you'll lucky if you can see the steak in the meat case and there's a good chance you won't have to worry about being able to chew the delicacy so in the long run, it all balances out. tongue.gif

As to the subs, absolutely there's more to be had. As we age, from personal experience, pretty much, you know our hearing sucks and with the added benefit of today's internet direct (ID) subwoofers, relatively speaking, today's subwoofers will get the energy in the lower, harder to hear, octaves. This will make it "EASIER" for aging hearing to hear those hard to hear bass notes.

A recommendation for your ears, get a subwoofer with a fifteen inch driver as a fifteen inch driver has about twice the output of a twelve in driver; more bang for the buck. If you have a small enclosed room, go with a sealed sub, if dealing the vastness of a large room with lots of ancillary rooms and high ceilings, go with a vented subwoofer.

In the price point one would find a PB-1000, I'd look to a Rythmik, LV12R. Even with this recommendation I'd encourage you to consider subwoofers with fifteen inch drivers. Yes, a bit more expensive but definitely a match that will complement those aging ears.

FWIW, I'm sixty-one. Boo-Hoo me. biggrin.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 9/16/13 at 9:14pm
post #4 of 31
I use a Rythmik Sealed F15 for music and movies, works great and its overkill in my 1300 cubic feet room. Very tight, never gets boomy.
post #5 of 31
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the input! I ordered a SB-1000 & a PC12-NSD for comparison. While I could be happy with either I am sending the SB-1000 back & ordering a second PC12-NSD. I liked the sound of the bigger cabinet & it fits where I wanted to place it / them. I also liked the looks a bit better. I will have to say that the little SB is a amazing sub for it's size & weight. A second sub definitely helped with nulls.

Subs with a 15" driver would be more than than I had wanted to spend & take up more floor space. Might have been do able, but I think I will be very happy with a pair of PC's.
post #6 of 31
Good choice.
post #7 of 31
I had dual CT-150’s and was floored when I finally went with my first SVS CS+ purchase. You might want to think of it as the PC-Plus. Night and day difference! Two PC-NSD's would be very nice, I still have one that is sort of a long term standin when I need it. Great sub..
post #8 of 31
Thread Starter 
I always like to see pictures, so here are mine.

Woof, Woof, the back side.




The other half

post #9 of 31
My opinion, there's something special about the PC12-NSD.

How do you like what they do for your bass reproduction needs?
post #10 of 31
Thread Starter 
I'm very pleased so far! The second one just came today, so I will spend some time doing minor tweaks to see if I can make it even better. I haven't watched a movie yet, but U571 is on the ticket for tonight. The bass for music is just what I yearned for. I used to like anything that went low & was loud, but my tastes have changed & I now have a preference for the detail and / or definition in the low freq's. The bass is still very important to me, but it's role has been diminished to just a important part of the music. Hmm, not quite how I want to describe it, but you get the drift.wink.gif
post #11 of 31
I have the little brother to the 7008, the SR5008. It only comes with MultEQ XT and you have XT32. Boo-hoo me. Have you run and setup Audyssey yet?

When the subwoofer system is properly set up, one doesn't notice the subwoofer as the subwoofer sound reproduction system is nothing more than an extension of the whole. All of the detail and none of the bloat.
post #12 of 31
Thread Starter 
Yep, first thing I did. Then I bumped the subs up an additional +5 which puts them right on the threshold of being able to detect where they are. Just finished U571. In the past I would have had the subs set up for much more dramatic explosions etc. I may play with this for movies, but in the past I have found it almost needs to be individually set for each movie to gain the max effect without over doing it. After I have a few more movies under my belt I'll decide if I want to do that. I think I can set the Marantz LFE for movies & have a different default for music & that is something else to consider.

BeeMan, giggle all the way to the bank to deposit what you saved by getting the little brother.
post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

BeeMan, giggle all the way to the bank to deposit what you saved by getting the little brother.

I love the SR5008 with two exceptions. When playing Home Theater output at reference levels, as the sound in the sound track ramps up, I can hear the speakers being left behind the subwoofers as the SR5008 doesn't have enough giddy-up to keep up with the demands of the sound track. Second, it doesn't have XT32. I made up for this shortfall by adding an Anti-Mode 8033S II but from everything I've read, XT32 is the best thing out there.

When we purchased the SR5008, we purchased at the same time a 60" flat screen and the wife being VERY fiscally conservative, would have howled loudly if I had stepped up from the gate.

Currently, when fiscally able, I'm looking to upgrade to a Denon, 4520ci that has seven separate amplifier channels and XT32. From all I've read, the 4520ci will cure all our ills. biggrin.gif
post #14 of 31
Thread Starter 
Overall, I like the SR7008, but there are several things I don't like about it as well.

Here is the review I did on it.

post #15 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

Overall, I like the SR7008, but there are several things I don't like about it as well.

Here is the review I did on it.

Good review as pretty much, your review applies to the SR5008. That porthole is very difficult to read, especially behind a glassed, entertainment credenza, door. In the case of the SR5008 vs the SR7008, I feel there's value to the purchase ($750 from Vann's) but being that Denon and Marantz are owned by the same company, despite having two independent design teams, it's hard to believe the design teams and manufacturing people, aren't talking to each other. Enters the 4520ci. A referb can be had for $1,600.00.

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post #16 of 31
Thread Starter 
I went with the Marantz because of some reviews & comments about the Denon having a brighter sound. After replacing the tweeters in all of my RTi A series boxes to deal with what to my ears was too much brightness, I was gun shy about going to a Denon.

I don't listen to anything at reference level. Usually the volume is in the 50-60 range. Some music has to be turned down from there to suit me.
post #17 of 31
I've been a fan of both Marantz and Denon since the 90's and I agree with your above. But since Denon and Marantz joined forces, the difference in sound quality seems to have melded together. I've owned both Denon and Marantz and like you, preferred the easier going sound quality of Marantz. I found the Denon units of the 90's to be a bit harsh or bright sounding. It can all depend on what OpAmps are being used as one can custom tune an amplifier's sound with just the simple change of a plug-n-play OpAmp. But realize, doing this is messing with nuances and how much does one want to play with nuances?

After purchasing the SR5008, I had a few online arguments over the differences and the interior images of comparable Denon vs Marantz were visually close, if not identical. Who knows what the individual board differences are but again, visually, if not identical, layout wise, they sure were close.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/1/13 at 10:13am
post #18 of 31
Yeah yeah yeah. How about an update of how you are enjoying the subs? tongue.gif
post #19 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

My opinion, there's something special about the PC12-NSD.

There certainly is. It's one of my favorites. Just a great all around sub. And it goes well with any mains as far as aesthetically matching. It's not trying to look like any type of finish and so it matches with all of them.
post #20 of 31
Thread Starter 
Last night I spent 4 hours listening to music with a smile on my face. Had a 80 year old neighbor over for dinner last night. After the meal I played a wide variety of music for him. A lot of old stuff like Mancini, Bing Crosby, Mills Brothers, Les Paul & Mary Ford mixed in with some more modern stuff. After about a hour & a half, he had to go home to feed horses etc, I think he enjoyed it a lot.

I am like everyone else & have favorites that I listen to on a regular basis & the bass is richer, cleaner & just more enjoyable. Some things I like to turn the volume up a bit, but with others, having a nice bass background that you can hear well without playing loud is very enjoyable. The new subs help with that but I think Audyssey does the most.

What I did not mention in the OP was that all the upgrading started with trying to get better dialog from the movies. Age related hearing, a lot of sound effects & mumbling actors had combined to the point that I had to turn on subtitles. That works, but detracted from the overall enjoyment of the flick. I was moderately successful & don't have to turn on subtitles any longer. As a side effect of my quest, I now have a system that gives me much more enjoyment with music listening & I'm spending more time at that.
post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

Yeah yeah yeah. How about an update of how you are enjoying the subs? tongue.gif

Last nights movie was "We Own The Night" We listened at -30 and my apologies for not mentioning the subwoofers because not once did we notice the speakers or subwoofers. Sadly, due to the subwoofer system being properly integrated into the room's acoustics, our concentration is on the movie playing out before our eyes. I forget the sound system is there and because of that, fail to tout the benefits of the subwoofer system.

For the wife's pleasure, tonight's movie will be a slower paced tear jerker of a love story: "The Notebook."

We'll take a break on Thursday which is another way of saying, we'll suffer the indignities of commercial TV and on Friday, the night's movie will be a subwoofer loving movie....."Total Recall." And that's how we're enjoying our subs. biggrin.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/2/13 at 6:47am
post #22 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

What I did not mention in the OP was that all the upgrading started with trying to get better dialog from the movies. Age related hearing, a lot of sound effects & mumbling actors had combined to the point that I had to turn on subtitles. That works, but detracted from the overall enjoyment of the flick. I was moderately successful & don't have to turn on subtitles any longer. As a side effect of my quest, I now have a system that gives me much more enjoyment with music listening & I'm spending more time at that.

For mains, we have nineteen year old Klipsch Epic; CF-3's. Last August, we upgraded our center channel to a Klipsch RC-64 II and all our dialogue blues went away. Due to timber matching issues, I'm not suggesting you buy a RC-64 II. Have you considered upgrading your center channel? Regarding your above comment, for us, it made all the difference in the world. If the center channel track is good, you'll hear and understand everything. If the track is bad, there's no fixing stupid but the improvement in center channel performance was well worth the price.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/2/13 at 6:49am
post #23 of 31
Thread Starter 
The CSi- A6 replaced a CS-1 when I got the A7's & there was a definite improvement. I then tried a NR-1603 for about a month & liked the improvement that Audyssey Multeq gave me. So, I then bit the bullet, sent the 1603 back (thanks Crutchfield) & ordered the SR7008. That also gave a noticeable improvement. Experimenting with mic placement also yielded some improvements as did minor tweaking of speaker placement. Changing the crossover settings for the center helped some also. I'm still tweaking stuff, but that is part of my nature.

I have heard that sitting on a too fat wallet can cause your back to get out of alignment & create visits to a Chiropractor. That problem isn't on my horizon do to this project. smile.gif
post #24 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

I have heard that sitting on a too fat wallet can cause your back to get out of alignment & create visits to a Chiropractor. That problem isn't on my horizon do to this project. smile.gif

It's amazing how fast a fat wallet gets small. tongue.gif

Based on your posted images, have you tried your center channel at the base of the television as opposed to above the television. The sound coming from the top of the television could be part of the trouble as, my understanding, center channel sound should be direct radiating.

The reason I choose the RC-64 II was two-fold. The first, I was looking for a television stand so we could place the center channel below the television for the reason mentioned. Then I realized the complications of a television stand that would fit our then current center channel as it would raise the television height to an unpleasant viewing height. Well, enters a b-stock center channel the size of the RC-64 II and we had a killer TV stand that doubled as a center channel. biggrin.gif

One day I'll breakdown, acquire a cheapie, digital, snapshot camera and post some images like what you posted.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/2/13 at 9:11am
post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
I would like to have it down at the base of theTV, but it is just too big to fit there. I do have it tilted down toward the listening position. The size of the thing is 24 w x 7 3/4 h x 14 deep & it weighs 29 lbs. This is earthquake country & having it down low seems like a good idea. The draw back is the TV would have to be raised which I'm not in favor of. If anyone wonders what the gray strap going to the top of the TV is, it's one of a pair, to keep the TV from tipping over in case of a earthquake.

A different stand isn't something I want to get into. That one is only 3 years old or so & is solid oak, not some veneered substitute. After trying to get something from a furniture store that was made with real wood, I gave up & had this one made at not much more expense than the over priced MDF or particleboard stuff in the furniture stores.

post #26 of 31
Thread Starter 
Watched The Fifth Element tonight. Lots of LFE. Sounded great!!
post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

Watched The Fifth Element tonight. Lots of LFE. Sounded great!!

Despite your best efforts, even if on the top of a garbage can, for effect, try your center channel in the lower position. If fail, you'll now have knowledge of what does or doesn't work. And yes, I agree, all this moving of speaker stuff around, is a huge pain.

"The Fifth Element" An excellent, fun, Bruce Willis flick. I love the bad guy (Gary Oldman who portrayed Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg) as he did such an excellent job and ya gotta love Bruce for his easy going portrayal of anti-heroes. Can't wait to see Bruce and Co. in "RED II"
post #28 of 31
I had the same issue with my center channel. I was going to mount one of those floating shelves above the TV initially. I ended up making a small platform just the size of the TV base to raise up my TV about 5 inches and then sit the center channel in front of the TV. My stepson has his mounted above his TV and it sounds OK, but right below the TV seems the best place to anchor the dialog to what's going on picture wise.

Is a dedicated center channel stand an option? I'm guessing not if it blocks the rest of your equipment.
post #29 of 31
Thread Starter 
That did not seem like a unreasonable request, so I put the center on a stool right in front of the TV. Unfortunately, I couldn't detect any difference in the clarity. I used Master & Commander for the test as it is one that I have trouble understanding Russell Crowe in places.

I'm also am waiting patiently for Red II. Loved the first one & everyone I have showed to to agreed. Of course most of them were old farts too. eek.gif

Poppa, I have not had any trouble anchoring the dialog to the screen in the past. Maybe it is something that you get accustomed to as I have had that configuration for quite awhile.

Thanks to you both for the suggestions.

Russ
post #30 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post

I used Master & Commander for the test as it is one that I have trouble understanding Russell Crowe in places.

I think that's Russel Crowe's (or the producer) fault as due to his need to hide his (born in New Zealand, raised in Australia) Aussie accent, he tended to mutter a lot. Especially during officers' dinner when everybody was having evening rations.

"The Lesser of two Weevils"

(there is one other suggestion, due to comb effect, a horizontally placed center channel such as the one you use, may be it's own worse enemy. the solution is to place the center channel in a vertical position (turned up on it's end) to eliminate the comb effect. also, sound is directional and the further a listener is off axis, the worse the sound reproduction. i don't know if this applies in your case)

You can try what I suggest in my above but it reads like you've done the best you can with what you have.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 10/4/13 at 7:33am
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