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Valve, "Linux is the future of gaming" - Shots fired? - Page 3

post #61 of 428
Good point, hadn't really considered the fact that analog sticks return to center and the benefit in that.

This controller also seems like it's heavily aimed at FPS style controls. But PC gamers are basically going to already be set in their use of m/kb for FPS and I can't see that changing based on this controller.

At the same time the design of the controller makes it awkward for most other uses. Nobody is going to use it for emulation / platformers / etc where simple easy access to tactile buttons is important.
post #62 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by krimson View Post

Good point, hadn't really considered the fact that analog sticks return to center and the benefit in that.

This controller also seems like it's heavily aimed at FPS style controls. But PC gamers are basically going to already be set in their use of m/kb for FPS and I can't see that changing based on this controller.

At the same time the design of the controller makes it awkward for most other uses. Nobody is going to use it for emulation / platformers / etc where simple easy access to tactile buttons is important.

Yeah it doesn't seem well suited to a platformer at all. But who knows until you try it. It's actually got more access to buttons without taking your thumbs off the pads than the console controllers though.

Xbox/PS has two clickable sticks, two triggers and two bumpers. And then 6 face buttons and the dpad. So 6 buttons that don't require a thumb to leave a stick and 10 that do. 16 buttons total.

This has clickable touchpads, two bumpers, two triggers and two buttons on the back. And 7 face buttons + the clickable screen. 8 thumbs on, 8 thumbs off, still 16 total...thats an improvement IMO.
post #63 of 428
I don't like the buttons being intended for both thumbs, just looking at it. I can't see that being a good idea.
post #64 of 428
That thing looks so strange. I can't wait to try it. I was hoping they would come out with something different and they certainly did. The haptic feedback sounds pretty awesome.

It's so radically different that I would really need to try out before I could comment on it. If nothing else I think it will be a nice alternative for KB/M games. I typically avoid them since I don't game at a computer desk.
Edited by Monger - 9/27/13 at 11:20pm
post #65 of 428
Looking at it...That looks exactly like the kind of controller I would want to use with an Oculus Rift set on. Maybe they had an eye toward VR/PC when they designed this. But like others have said. I'll reserve judgment until trying it. I need to know a lot more about it. Will it link with Kinect 2.0 for PC via infra red...etc. Is it as responsive and intuitive as the Xbox One controller purports to be?
post #66 of 428
Thread Starter 
post #67 of 428
Initial reports are intriguing:

http://kotaku.com/valves-controller-has-been-tested-here-are-some-impre-1415579308

Quote:
Lambe had played a first-person shooter with Valve's new device. It seems that the haptic feedback of the trackpads made a big impression. The idea of that feedback is that it's supposed to create the feeling that the trackpad has edges on it, perhaps the outlines of buttons, if that's how it is programmed for a specific game. Those trackpads are sensitive to movement and pressure.

"This sounds weird, but it's almost like rolling two weighted trackballs that are too large to actually fit into the controller," Lambe said as he tried to explain what it's like to have one's thumbs on those two trackpads. "For camera controls, slide one thumb to the right, and you'll feel this ticking, like you're turning a physical control. Flick your thumb quickly, and this imaginary physical thing reacts like something with weight to it—the 'trackball' continues to roll for a bit, eventually coming to a rest. And since it's all controlled through the software, the same trackpad then becomes more like a mouse or a laptop trackpad when you're navigating through menus. Dynamic!"

http://tommyrefenes.tumblr.com/post/62476523677/my-time-with-the-steam-controller
Quote:
The Steam Controller (or whatever it’s officially called) is strange. Where your thumbs normally rest when holding a controller, there are just the two little circular track pads just like what you see in the pictures. In the center you have your A,B,X,Y buttons surrounding what I was told would be a touch screen display at some point. The touchpad / screen in the center of the controller wasn’t enabled so I can’t really speak on that. The A,B,X,Y buttons surrounding the touch screen seemed to be used more for your standard “Back” button configuration. Think of them not as A,B,X,Y but additional buttons that can perform some functionality. You obviously wouldn’t play a game with those buttons being your primary action buttons. You use the left and right circle pads as your primary inputs.

On top of the controller you have your standard Left/Right Bumpers and Left/Right Triggers, they work and feel as you would expect. On the back of the controller are two additional triggers that you can hit with your fingers naturally by just squeezing your hand but aren’t so sensitive that the act of holding the controller depresses the buttons.
post #68 of 428
Quote:
I was able to play Meat Boy the way Meat Boy can be played on an advanced level (and I’m rusty at it). The right circle button was the jump button and we had both Triggers mapped to the Run button just like a regular Xbox 360 controller. We also had the Run button mapped to the back trigger buttons I mentioned before that can be pressed with your fingers on the back of the pad. This worked great but did lead to a bit of hand cramping. I think this is due more to the way you use the run button in Meat Boy and not the design of the controller or the buttons.

 

Quote:

If you were to ask me if I would play games with the Steam Controller…I would say yes. If you were to ask me to choose between Steam Controller and a 360 controller, I would choose 360. Don’t take that as slight to the controller though because it’s more about the comfort of familiarity over functionality. I would choose a 360 controller because I have several thousand hours experience using it, however if tomorrow all game controllers were wiped off the earth and the only option was the Steam Controller, I don’t think this would be a bad thing. In fact, I don’t think gaming would miss a beat. I’m excited to see what final hardware feels like because I think with the upcoming iterations of the controller we’ll see something that is different, but still feels good.

 

Coming from one of the creators of super meat boy....I'm starting to take this thing way more seriously.

post #69 of 428
But wait kids! There's more! Nvidia has just announced that they are developing an API to significantly improve GPU performance on Linux by cutting out some middle-man processes in how the GPU deals with textures and other stuff. It will work with AMD, Nvidia, and Intel GPUs.
post #70 of 428
This could be really interesting. a NVidia/Linux/steam vs AMD/Microsoft/Xbox/windows showdown.

I state here I enjoyed my last trip to Linux on my now dead NVidia ThinkPad. The things that drove me away were gpu drivers (video tarring) and no good replacement for winamp/windows media player.

I think this could be really good for open minded consumers.
post #71 of 428
Wow. Read every post in this thread. To avoid disappointment please temper your expectations, because this is going to be a niche product unless they happen to capture all the PC gaming minds at once.

Would like to see more information on publishers on board, upcoming software, and the like. Will there be anyone besides Valve willing to spend the money it takes to make software for 2% of the existing PC gamers out there? If games going to be developed natively in Linux/SteamOS then all the developers are going to have to add the space, personnel and equipment because this is a new platform. If they are all going to be ports then lookout for spotty quality that may really sink a new product launch.

Also would like to know more about just how much these machines will be plug and play. If the goal is to park these in front of TV's for the masses then there should be a minimum of tinkering to get a game running, because talking about dual booting and other things are arcane arts to the vast majority. If the goal is to get a foot in the door, to overturn Windows gaming by giving the end user (that knows how) the tools to play, mod, and generally mess with games as they see fit then this will be the best thing invented. But then you get the question of piracy and security which all the major publishers will be wondering about, which again brings us back to who's exactly on board. Activision/EA/Ubisoft/Bethesda aren't going risk giving away software in the attempt to sell to <2% of current PC gamers, so is there going to be any type of security for software? Will there be a patchwork of solutions that only work with varying degrees of annoyance (just like now)?

If there's any one company that can turn Linux into something more than an extremely niche product, it's Valve. I will be watching with fingers crossed. I hope it does something to shake up the space, and I hope they are careful enough not to bankrupt themselves in the process.
post #72 of 428

Even though it's a shot in the dark, I still want to try and get in on the hardware beta.  Need 10 steam friends.

 

Add me!  Steam Username: Darius510

post #73 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Even though it's a shot in the dark, I still want to try and get in on the hardware beta.  Need 10 steam friends.

Add me!  Steam Username: Darius510
I just sent you an invite
post #74 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Even though it's a shot in the dark, I still want to try and get in on the hardware beta.  Need 10 steam friends.

Add me!  Steam Username: Darius510

Invite sent.
post #75 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash44 View Post

Wow. Read every post in this thread. To avoid disappointment please temper your expectations, because this is going to be a niche product unless they happen to capture all the PC gaming minds at once.

Would like to see more information on publishers on board, upcoming software, and the like. Will there be anyone besides Valve willing to spend the money it takes to make software for 2% of the existing PC gamers out there? If games going to be developed natively in Linux/SteamOS then all the developers are going to have to add the space, personnel and equipment because this is a new platform. If they are all going to be ports then lookout for spotty quality that may really sink a new product launch.

Also would like to know more about just how much these machines will be plug and play. If the goal is to park these in front of TV's for the masses then there should be a minimum of tinkering to get a game running, because talking about dual booting and other things are arcane arts to the vast majority. If the goal is to get a foot in the door, to overturn Windows gaming by giving the end user (that knows how) the tools to play, mod, and generally mess with games as they see fit then this will be the best thing invented. But then you get the question of piracy and security which all the major publishers will be wondering about, which again brings us back to who's exactly on board. Activision/EA/Ubisoft/Bethesda aren't going risk giving away software in the attempt to sell to <2% of current PC gamers, so is there going to be any type of security for software? Will there be a patchwork of solutions that only work with varying degrees of annoyance (just like now)?

If there's any one company that can turn Linux into something more than an extremely niche product, it's Valve. I will be watching with fingers crossed. I hope it does something to shake up the space, and I hope they are careful enough not to bankrupt themselves in the process.

 

 

I think it's a pretty low risk play for Valve.  They're not ceasing their windows operations.  Every PC that can run steam, can also run SteamOS or Steam Big Picture...and it's all free. You should be able to use the steam controller in windows, or your xbox controller in SteamOS. Piracy will be no bigger an issue in SteamOS than it already is in Windows. Little by little, people can convert from windows to SteamOS, without missing a beat...it's not even like a console generation transition where software and hardware compatibility are broken.   

 

I highly doubt it'll be an overnight success, but it will just creep up on people. Since it's a technically a software platform and not a hardware platform, it shares an install base with Windows, so the number of potential SteamOS machines will always be hundreds of millions, it's just a matter of converting people one by one. It's not make or break if it's not a success on day one. Having easy to use hardware in stores can then start to bring the traditional "console gamers" over, little by little. 

 

Given all that, it's hard to see how it won't be a success over time, unless the OS itself is terrible.       

post #76 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Even though it's a shot in the dark, I still want to try and get in on the hardware beta.  Need 10 steam friends.

Add me!  Steam Username: Darius510
Invite sent as well.
post #77 of 428
Glad I found this thread. I made a few posts in the Xbox One thread and they kept disappearing... Oh well my fault on that. I'm pretty excited by Valve's announcement and hope this takes off for them since I think this will be a huge shot for gaming in general. I have hopes that if this does take off that we may see less 1st party exclusives on consoles and then more ports to the PC field. As far as the controller I can't wait to give it a try. I think it has a lot of potential once you get used to it. After the Xbox One I was hoping to build a new Desktop and get a a PS4 down the road, but will probably pass on the PS4 and look into the Steam Machine instead. I'd still like to have a new Gaming desktop since I like to build my own rigs.
post #78 of 428
Looks like the first Steam Machine will be from Xi3, the company that was tapped as the Steam Box maker many moons ago when Valve talked about what they were doing. The machine will be AMD APU based, which should be very interesting as AMD has notoriously bad Linux support and performance and pretty much outsources their Linux driver development to Red Hat. I guess Mantle is going to step up.
post #79 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripeer View Post

This could be really interesting. a NVidia/Linux/steam vs AMD/Microsoft/Xbox/windows showdown.

I state here I enjoyed my last trip to Linux on my now dead NVidia ThinkPad. The things that drove me away were gpu drivers (video tarring) and no good replacement for winamp/windows media player.

I think this could be really good for open minded consumers.

They should just debug Nero and include its full suite as replacement for media player and WMC.
post #80 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

Looks like the first Steam Machine will be from Xi3, the company that was tapped as the Steam Box maker many moons ago when Valve talked about what they were doing. The machine will be AMD APU based, which should be very interesting as AMD has notoriously bad Linux support and performance and pretty much outsources their Linux driver development to Red Hat. I guess Mantle is going to step up.

Their reveal of these will be in about 14 minutes. Should be interesting.
post #81 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post

Their reveal of these will be in about 14 minutes. Should be interesting.


http://www.xi3.com/piston-console.php
post #82 of 428
Link not working.

I guess xi3 was not ready for tens of millions of gamers simultaneously accessing their site.

edit: Found a different link for it... Basically what I "feared", it's priced like you would expect a gaming pc to be priced ($1000). They really need to find a way to build these with SEMI competitive prices compared to consoles or it's just going to flop hard. The budget conscious will buy a console and the pc gaming nerds would rather build their own for that price.
Edited by krimson - 9/30/13 at 9:52am
post #83 of 428
Piston site looks like it is up now:
http://xi3.force.com/piston

Data Sheet:
http://xi3.force.com/piston/resource/1380553410000/DataSheetX7A
Edited by Arutha_conDoin - 9/30/13 at 10:15am
post #84 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by krimson View Post

Link not working.

I guess xi3 was not ready for tens of millions of gamers simultaneously accessing their site.

edit: Found a different link for it... Basically what I "feared", it's priced like you would expect a gaming pc to be priced ($1000). They really need to find a way to build these with SEMI competitive prices compared to consoles or it's just going to flop hard. The budget conscious will buy a console and the pc gaming nerds would rather build their own for that price.

I wouldn't worry about that, the piston seems more like an apple style "form over function" kind of box. Here are a few more reasonably priced ones that are sure to end up with steam OS:

http://www.alienware.com/ubuntu/

http://www.ibuypower.com/Info/revolt.aspx

http://www.zotacusa.com/products/mini-pcs
post #85 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by krimson View Post

Link not working.

I guess xi3 was not ready for tens of millions of gamers simultaneously accessing their site.

edit: Found a different link for it... Basically what I "feared", it's priced like you would expect a gaming pc to be priced ($1000). They really need to find a way to build these with SEMI competitive prices compared to consoles or it's just going to flop hard. The budget conscious will buy a console and the pc gaming nerds would rather build their own for that price.

I just can't see anyone jumping on board unless they have serious money to waste and with significantly better hardware arriving not soon after the release, it's just not worth it to buy in. It sounds like it would cost 2K just to get the highest-performing configuration.
post #86 of 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexInVA View Post


I just can't see anyone jumping on board unless they have serious money to waste and with significantly better hardware arriving not soon after the release, it's just not worth it to buy in. It sounds like it would cost 2K just to get the highest-performing configuration.

 

Yeah, this seems like the total opposite of what I want from a steam machine.  It doesn't even have an internal HDD, they must be out of their minds.

 

Got to give it up to their marketing though, it's coming out long before SteamOS, Valve or Steam isnt mentioned a single time on their page or their press release, and somehow it's being treated like the de facto steam machine. I'm surprised HP, Dell and ASUS aren't tripping over themselves to announce their configurations...they all basically already have the products.

post #87 of 428
I don't think they are out of their minds. The design is perfect for a Steambox but not perfect for a product that you want to sell to people in today's economy. I DO remember the days of consoles that cost $500 or more and that's not something we need to return to unless the bang comes with the buck, which it doesn't seem to in the case of the Xi3 hardware from what we can see. Of course, since the Steam OS has been tweaked and optimized to the nth degree and this hardware has been designed as a low-latency PC platform, Piston may very well be a solid performing piece of hardware WHEN paired with the Steam OS. However, I still think they should wait and release it next year with the next AMD APU which will bring a better investment for those looking to get into the Steam system, not to mention there will be loads of bug fixes and improvements for Steam OS by then.
post #88 of 428
http://timothylottes.blogspot.com/2013/10/where-is-real-steam-machine.html
Quote:
Xi3: $1000 / 384 cores = $2.6/core
PS4: $400 / 1152 cores = $0.3/core

In other words the Xi3 looks to be 7.5x more expensive in $/perf compared to a PS4, and roughly 3x slower in graphics.

I dunno who this is for, but it's certainly not for people who want to step up from next gen.
post #89 of 428
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

http://timothylottes.blogspot.com/2013/10/where-is-real-steam-machine.html
I dunno who this is for, but it's certainly not for people who want to step up from next gen.

People looking for form over function?

SteamOS should give some good performance gains, but it won't be making the Xi3 a competitor on price/performance. Mise well just call it Alienware.
post #90 of 428
thanks to Arutha_conDoin for pointing out this thread to me.

BD, I will add you to Steam later when I am home.

I am very curious about this system. The controller looks very different but at the same time it looks like it could be really good.

I would love to be able to access all my same games digitally from any room in the house and it sounds like this would allow it. I also hope that with a heavier presence in the family room and controller support I hope to see more local coop games coming out for the PC in the future!
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