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"Official" Emotiva UMC-200 Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 252
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

When you say your sub is "behind my head" do you mean it is elevated off the floor?

Bill

Yes, it's about 1' from the ears at shoulder height.
post #62 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Yes, it's about 1' from the ears at shoulder height.

That's different. Which sub do you have and how did you mount it? I'm curious as I've never seen a system with a sub that close to the listener and mounted that high.

Bill
post #63 of 252
Thread Starter 
^
It's a DIY ripole sub. I've chosen it because of the small form factor which helps reducing early reflections from the enclosure. It also causes less detrimental room effects than a monopole sub at the same location. I still have to build a nice stand for it. A simple stand will do because the two opposing drivers don't make the enclosure move.
post #64 of 252
Yes, but I'll sacrifice "optimal" for not having a big subwoofer in the middle of my floor too.
post #65 of 252
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post

Yes, but I'll sacrifice "optimal" for not having a big subwoofer in the middle of my floor too.

I wasn't talking about "big" nor about "middle of my floor".
post #66 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I wasn't talking about "big" nor about "middle of my floor".
Ummm... Okee dokie, marcus.
post #67 of 252
Thread Starter 
I've observed some weird behavior in "Direct" mode with digital sources which led to further tests regarding the UMC-200's signal routing. This is what I've found:

- None of the "Direct" modes is direct
- 2 channel "All Stereo" sends filtered L/R signals to the surrounds
- Headphones output is the summed signal of the speaker feeds after all processing has been applied - bass management, delays, gains, EQ
- Test tones don't pass through bass management and EQ

Signal flow is something like this:



This is how I think signal flow should look like:


Edited by markus767 - 1/11/14 at 6:58am
post #68 of 252
Marcus, how are you finding the UMC-200, regarding sound quality only?
post #69 of 252
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post

Marcus, how are you finding the UMC-200, regarding sound quality only?

Unless one doesn't use certain modes or the headphones - see my last post - then the UMC-200 sounds as good or bad as any other AVR.
post #70 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I've observed some weird behavior in "Direct" mode which lead to further tests regarding the UMC-200's signal routing. This is what I've found:

- None of the "Direct" modes is direct
- 2 channel "All Stereo" sends filtered L/R signals to the surrounds
- Headphones output is the summed signal of the speaker feeds after all processing has been applied - bass management, delays, gains, EQ
- Test tones don't pass through bass management and EQ

Signal flow is something like this:



This is how I think signal flow should look like:

 

 

Wow, that's great work Marcus, it seems that the UMC has some compromises and incorrectly routed and applied processing.  I'm wondering if they are going with the same approach for the XMC, sure hope not.

post #71 of 252
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post


Wow, that's great work Marcus, it seems that the UMC has some compromises and incorrectly routed and applied processing.  I'm wondering if they are going with the same approach for the XMC, sure hope not.

That would be a disaster. Concerning the UMC-200 I'm baffled how they're getting away with such fundamentally flawed routing. Especially after the UMC-1 drama. They even got awards for the UMC-200. I really don't know what's worse, Emotiva selling products with fundamentally flawed features, reviewers not properly reporting those flaws or customers accepting such treatment.
post #72 of 252
Well, with Emotiva's record to consider, it seems that some of these issues you've mentioned are something that they have little or no control over until after the product is released. This would indicate that they are out of the loop on their own processor designs. The alternative is that they are somewhat inept at designing processors. Either option is not that attractive.
post #73 of 252
Just received mine last night.

Everything seems to work well thus far. My HDMI signal was being dropped frequently despite using the exact same cables from the receiver it was replacing. But after a cable swap it seems stable now.
The menus are a little dorky and cumbersome, but I typically set everything and never touch it again for years. I hope to finish the setup later this evening and enjoy!

Fortunately, I have no need to use headphones or Direct mode or other features other than blu-ray viewing.
Hopefully they will have updates to address the concerns mentioned above.
post #74 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Fortunately, I have no need to use headphones or Direct mode or other features other than blu-ray viewing.

That was also my thinking when buying the UMC.
I knew the problems in advance (thanks to Markus post), but as i only use the HDMI connection, for the price and having the PEQ, it seemed a good bet.
Edited by neo_2009 - 12/18/13 at 2:57pm
post #75 of 252
Ya, there is no perfect product/solution for everyone. But for $499 shipped, it is hard to beat. I hope that proves to be the case over the next couple of years.
post #76 of 252
Markus,

do you think this "problems", or "questionable implementation choices" are exclusive to the UMC-200, or are they inherent to the tonewinner platform?
Are they likely to also occur in the other products using the same platform (Outlaw 975, Nuforce AVP-18)?
post #77 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post

Markus,

do you think this "problems", or "questionable implementation choices" are exclusive to the UMC-200, or are they inherent to the tonewinner platform?
Are they likely to also occur in the other products using the same platform (Outlaw 975, Nuforce AVP-18)?

I think it is the Cirius DSP they all use.

Don't forget to add Cary Audio also. wink.gif
post #78 of 252
My new UMC-200 developed a buzzing in on of the surround channels.
I contacted them and they quickly called back and arranged an immediately cross-shipment.

Excellent customer service!
post #79 of 252
I have one of these under my Christmas tree, my wife got it for me. I hope to have no issues when I hook it up on Wednesday. I had a B&K 307 receiver that bit the dust recently.
post #80 of 252
I received my cross-shipped replacement with pre-paid shipping label.
Much better this go round! I am very pleased with the unit. I am now loving it! Great bang for the buck!

I am an Emotiva fan!
post #81 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss396 View Post

I have one of these under my Christmas tree, my wife got it for me. I hope to have no issues when I hook it up on Wednesday. I had a B&K 307 receiver that bit the dust recently.

Congrats!
I can't imagine there is much to not like. I am sure there are some tweakers out there that can find issue with something. But, for my needs it is perfect.
I even like the slimline remote that is keeps the most basic functions at the top, like power and input. It could be backlit, but not a deal breaker.
It works perfect for my needs.
post #82 of 252
I got every thing hooked up and operational in short order. For my modest set up, it plays cable TV and Blu Rays fine. I was able to run the Emo Q set up, and I am impressed with the improvement in dialog on movies when I toggle it on and off. Overall I am very happy so far.
post #83 of 252
Something i realy don't understand, i spend so much time reading about Emotiva Products on many sites (AVS, Audiogon, Blueray, etc...) and almost the majority of the feedback of the people who have experience with
Emotiva Products is related to all kind of problems (Quality/customer services, etc....).

I am so worried now to buy anything from Emotiva even if their prices is so attractive !! I prefer spend much more knowing that i will receive a real quality product instead !!!
post #84 of 252
I think we need to clarify a few things here.....

1) With an analog input signal, the UMC-200's Direct mode is absolutely direct; the input signal goes directly to the digitally controlled analog volume control and then on to the output. The signal remains in the analog mode, with no modifications and no conversions.

2) With a digital signal, there's obviously no way to avoid passing the signal through the DACs if you want an analog output. We included bass management in that situation because, since the signal has to go through the DACs anyway, there's no way to avoid doing a conversion - and many people prefer to have bass management.

3) The choice to run the headphones on the UMC-200 from a summed output was made for a very simple reason - so you can sensibly use the headphones when listening to a movie. (If the headphones were fed directly from the input signal, then you wouldn't be able to use them to listen to movies; to do that they HAVE to be fed from the channel outputs, after the decoders, so you get all the channels and dialog. Thus it became a choice between "audiophile quality direct headphone outputs" and headphone outputs that were useful when watching a movie at night. Since the UMC-200 is intended as an A/V pre/pro, we opted for the wider usefulness.

I agree, it is baffling how such glaring errors could exist, yet we have so many customers who seem satisfied (or even more or less thrilled) with the performance and sound quality of the UMC-200. Perhaps, just because someone may disagree with certain design choices we made with the UMC-200, they really aren't flaws at all... hmmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

That would be a disaster. Concerning the UMC-200 I'm baffled how they're getting away with such fundamentally flawed routing. Especially after the UMC-1 drama. They even got awards for the UMC-200. I really don't know what's worse, Emotiva selling products with fundamentally flawed features, reviewers not properly reporting those flaws or customers accepting such treatment.
Reply
Reply
post #85 of 252
Thread Starter 
The problem is "Direct" mode with digital 2 channel sources. Doesn't matter if 2 channel PCM or even Dolby Digital 2/0. The signal passes through bass management, the low frequencies are "cut off" according to the crossover settings and is sent to the left and right speaker. As a result the bass is missing. That's not direct, that simply doesn't make any sense.

Regarding the headphones it's the same situation. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. The headphone output should get its signal right after the decoding stage before bass management, delay and gain, not after speaker processing is applied. Why would anyone want to listen to processing that is intended for the speakers only? Now people might see (hear) something like this in their headphones:



I'm not sure if these are design decisions but squeezing the most features out of limited hardware capabilities. I'm designing lots of custom software solutions and one of the first stages of the design process is always to define how features have to work. Then and only then design decisions are made how to implement those features. The UMC-200 is an example what can happen if it's done the other way around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmotivaKeith View Post

I think we need to clarify a few things here.....

1) With an analog input signal, the UMC-200's Direct mode is absolutely direct; the input signal goes directly to the digitally controlled analog volume control and then on to the output. The signal remains in the analog mode, with no modifications and no conversions.

2) With a digital signal, there's obviously no way to avoid passing the signal through the DACs if you want an analog output. We included bass management in that situation because, since the signal has to go through the DACs anyway, there's no way to avoid doing a conversion - and many people prefer to have bass management.

3) The choice to run the headphones on the UMC-200 from a summed output was made for a very simple reason - so you can sensibly use the headphones when listening to a movie. (If the headphones were fed directly from the input signal, then you wouldn't be able to use them to listen to movies; to do that they HAVE to be fed from the channel outputs, after the decoders, so you get all the channels and dialog. Thus it became a choice between "audiophile quality direct headphone outputs" and headphone outputs that were useful when watching a movie at night. Since the UMC-200 is intended as an A/V pre/pro, we opted for the wider usefulness.

I agree, it is baffling how such glaring errors could exist, yet we have so many customers who seem satisfied (or even more or less thrilled) with the performance and sound quality of the UMC-200. Perhaps, just because someone may disagree with certain design choices we made with the UMC-200, they really aren't flaws at all... hmmm...
post #86 of 252

hi!

 

OMG i that really true that the bassmanagment cuts off bass and doesnt redirect it to the sub.....then that is an major error on the software!!!

 

wonder what Keith can tell us about that:/

post #87 of 252
I've never listened to a home theater component using headphones that didn't 'process' a 2-channel signal. The 'sweetening' each device uses has exactly the opposite effect in my view. I'm not a fan of using all kinds of processing to listen to music. Thus, I have a stand-alone DAC and dedicated headphone amp for the purpose of digital source stereo headphone listening.
I haven't used the headphone jack on the UMC, but see both points, it may cost more to engineer a multi-channel down-mix for digital. But, not that much more. And, once multi-channel sources have "down mixed," even without additional processing, it's still been significantly altered to accommodate two channel anyway.
post #88 of 252
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oatmeal769 View Post

it may cost more to engineer a multi-channel down-mix for digital.

Such a downmix is trivial to do and the UMC-200 does it. Define only left and right speaker. Any multichannel signal is downmixed into two channels.
post #89 of 252

Thanks Markus, you have a way with some of the highly technical inner workings of these components that helps the average guy know what he's dealing with.  Personally, I don't care for a processor that can't do direct mode.  My Onkyo can, they call it "pure mode" and I occasionally toggle between that and a Dolby or THX music mode to compare.  

post #90 of 252
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Such a downmix is trivial to do and the UMC-200 does it. Define only left and right speaker. Any multichannel signal is downmixed into two channels.
I think I just said that...
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