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Reciever with HDMI video out and amplifier out and HDMI video audio out simultaneously

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I really appreciate being able to post to this forum. I have a Sony ES5600 receiver. I have an Epson projector for the main screen and three additional screens in the house. One of my screens is in the bathroom. The object is when you are watching a movie you can go to the kitchen or bathroom and the movie is playing (no pause required).

The Sony ES5600 (it seems) allows you to have speaker outputs and HDMI video only "OR" you can have HDMI video with audio out of the HDMI output but you loose your internal amplifier speaker outputs. I am sure this is so I don't sell tickets to a movie or run an HDMI cable to my neighbor's house and they watch something for free (sigh).

I am a bit of a newbie... do all recievers block you from having full 5.1 or 7.1 internal amplified speaker output and HDMI video to my projector and an HDMI video with audio output at the same time to additional screens?

I devised a method of RCA audio output "inject" into HDMI to the other sets but the audio delay (analog to digital) was ummm "suks".

I am moving shortly and have all the HDMI distribution and would consider loosing my ES5600 for a receiver that allows HDMI to my projector with amplified 7.1 output AND HDMI with audio video output that I can send to my other screens.

Again sorry if this post is newbie...

Rich
post #2 of 21
Short answer is that isn't not the fault of the AVR, but rather a "feature" of HDMI. There is no easy solution for mixing TVs with only 2-channel audio and AVRs or setups with surround sound over HDMI. Search for "HDMI common denominator" and you'll see a ton of threads on the topic.

Jeff
post #3 of 21
Thread Starter 
Did the searching. I have an projector Epson 3020 projector connected to one HDMI output from Sony es5600. The es5600 amp is being used for 5.1 audio.

In this condition the second HDMI output of the es5600 has been stripped of any audio it seems. I would be quite happy if the second HDMI output had 2 channel audio but zero audio is very frustrating.

1) Did I grasp in the search that some DVRs may provide the second HDMI output to have stereo output while the DVR amp is being used for 5.1/7.1?

Over the past year I played with various methods of injecting the analog output into the second HDMI stream but the audio delay caused by A to D was really annoying when you are standing between screens.

If there is no real solution to #1 then I think I will need to move to a matrix switcher and just use my es5600 as an amp. But reading now I am concerned that even the matrix switcher may not be able to be used for an end result of 3D with 7.1 out of one output and 720P with PCM out of at least 3 other outputs.

If I understand it correctly there may be "no easy solution" based on present HDMI standards... but in today's reality screens are INEXPENSIVE. So this frustration will only be steadily mounting to the general public (my humble prediction LOL).
post #4 of 21
Denon and Yamaha both have new AVR that allow for 5.1 and a second zone to be 2.0. This allows the same audio or separate audio sources to play simultaneously.
post #5 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by OZLAND View Post

Denon and Yamaha both have new AVR that allow for 5.1 and a second zone to be 2.0. This allows the same audio or separate audio sources to play simultaneously.

And when the same HDMI source is selected for both zones, audio will be restricted to the format(s) of the 2nd zone display(s). Which means you'll lose 7.1/5.1 during those times. Which is not what I think you want...
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
I appreciate you guys trying! You would think that restricting audio to PCM on the second HDMI output when viewing the same video on HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 would be "good enough". This is so silly for 2013 (seemingly my opinion).

I could go back and try component + analog LR input to HDMI conversion but the devices I tried all have about 50ms + delay at HDMI between the converted HDMI and the HDMI 1 audio. Unless somebody knows of an ultra fast Component to HDMI convertor but I don't think you can get under one frame?


OK how about this question... how do I accomplish DVD/source to DVR to two screens over HDMI one HDMI with 5.1/7.1 and one HDMI with stereo audio? Consider thinking out of box. Can it just not be done? Again thank you thank you!!
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichBell View Post

I appreciate you guys trying! You would think that restricting audio to PCM on the second HDMI output when viewing the same video on HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 would be "good enough". This is so silly for 2013 (seemingly my opinion).

It's a lot of work to do that transformation, and then it has to be re-encrypted in order to leave the "box", which is why we don't see it implemented that way... Yes, its a shortcoming of HDMI as multi-display distribution was not really covered by the spec. HDMI v2.0 adds support that may help, but since we'd have to buy all new gear anyway, too little too late.
Quote:
I could go back and try component + analog LR input to HDMI conversion but the devices I tried all have about 50ms + delay at HDMI between the converted HDMI and the HDMI 1 audio. Unless somebody knows of an ultra fast Component to HDMI convertor but I don't think you can get under one frame?

A pre-2012 blu-ray player with component video output would be a solution, as component video can be easily distributed, with the HDMI output used only for the primary viewing location.
Quote:
OK how about this question... how do I accomplish DVD/source to DVR to two screens over HDMI one HDMI with 5.1/7.1 and one HDMI with stereo audio? Consider thinking out of box. Can it just not be done? Again thank you thank you!!

You don't. Two solutions: (a) use component video instead of HDMI or (b) use Soundbars with HDMI inputs and proper audio codec support to bring the other displays up to the same capability as the main zone.

Jeff
post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
Thanks Jeff (go H-Town BTW).
Quote:
A pre-2012 blu-ray player with component video output would be a solution, as component video can be easily distributed, with the HDMI output used only for the primary viewing location.

Not so good for me. I have already ran the #$O! HDMI cable through all the walls. I have HDMI and RG6 available. I kind of wish I would have run Cat 6 but component and analog audio to Cat 6 must also have about a 25ms delay minimum. So not so easy.

I have an idea... I want to try taking the analog out from the DVD player/source and inserting it into the second HDMI output of the DVR. Maybe because I am one A to D and D to A removed the audio inserted into the second HDMI could be less delayed? (theory I know).

This is so ridiculous to me... I guess there are very few of us that want to do this?
post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
(b) use Soundbars with HDMI inputs and proper audio codec support to bring the other displays up to the same capability as the main zone.

OK I am just now getting that one.

Does this mean it is possible that the new Denon and Yamaha AVRs will allow 5.1/7.1 output from the second HDMI out if a remote screen is now 5.1/7.1 capable due to the addition of a Soundbar supporting 5.1/7.1 at the remote location?

and what if the second HDMI out goes through a quality HDMI splitter first and there are two remote screens with 5.1/7.1 soundbars? I realize that some of this may be guess work...

Again appreciate it.

Rich
post #10 of 21
Basically, what you need is a audio DSP (digital signal processor) that handles HDMI audio in as multi-channel and downmixes it to stereo. There are no 'clean' ways to do that right now, but one way you may try...

Use a receiver which has two zones of HDMI output. The first zone is your theater surround setup.

Use a second receiver which is daisy chained from the first receiver. It is a full 7.1 receiver, but setup to down mix the audio to stereo.

The second receiver should accept a full 7.1 audio input without forcing a downmix and internally downmix to 2.0 stereo which can be output on the HDMI cable. The main receiver will remain the DSP for your surround area and deliver 7.1 audio. It will also pass 7.1 audio to the output of the receiver and onto your second receiver which will then downmix the surround properly and deliver the audio to the displays.

I'm not 100% sure this will work, but I have done a daisy chain setup between two receivers which both needed 5.1 audio and it appeared to work just fine.
post #11 of 21
'I have a Sony ES5600 receiver' – do your Sources sound significantly different set to 5.1 via HDMI vs. 5.1 via Optical or Coaxial?

If yes then a Soundbar in Zones 2 + 3 is a good option – an HDMI Distribution Amp, or better still a Matrix, ahead of the Sony AVR would be a more flexible option vs. all Zones having to view whatever the AVR is set to.

Joe
post #12 of 21
Thread Starter 
I appears I can't use my Sony ES5600 because the two HDMI settings are 1) 5.1/7.1 with video/audio (full mix) out of HDMI 1/2 OR 2) internal amp with 5.1/7.1 to speakers and output 1/2 HDMI is mute and video only no sound (BS BS BS x BS).

So I do take responsibility that I am so on the edge in my thinking here (sarcasm applied) that I would like multiple screens in my home with one screen being 5.1/7.1 (internal AVR amp) and other remote screens being limited to stereo over HDMI internal amp supplied by remote screens (sigh).

I have zero objection to applying sound bars at the remote screens (except they add clunky to the wall) and it appears the HDMI BS (forgive me) standard was made when screens cost big $ but now they are quite reasonable. So (thanks to everyone sincerely) the new Yamaha or Denon that can/may output 5.1/7.1 out of HDMI 2 "if" the remote screens are 5.1/7.1 capable (sound bar) and the Yamaha/Denon internal amp is outputting 5.1/7.1 is what suggested model? I accept responsibility for the testing.

NOTE: I like my ES because the amps are solid and there are two tons of real copper (Watts = watts). However agreed that Denon and Yamaha make good product!.

Thanks again to the brothers of this AVS Forum it is appreciated!.

Rich
post #13 of 21
I, too, am caught by this. I have just decided to wire up the kitchen TV to accept playback from any of my digital inputs. There is a setting within the amp that lets me set audio as coming either from the amp OR through the HDMI cable going to the my display. I have 3 displays running through a splitter. Everything works fine except no audio in one of the remote locations (I have main display big TV with audio via amp, a 2nd disply in the same room used as video only and the 3rd display in the kitchen). So no audio in the kitchen unless I switch off audio in the lounge. Now I read that this is a function of earlier implementations of HDMI but is it ? Since I have a switch function that allows one or the other it seems to me that if the switch could be fused together I would have both.

So I don't think that this is a function of HDMI at all but rather issues to do with HDCP and the RIAA etc who have decided in their infinite wisdom that I cannot have what is a perfectly legitimate requirement. In other words to protect digital content they have DELIBERATELY set the HDMI standard so that you CAN'T have HDMI audio in both locations. It is NOT inherent in the HDMI specs but rather a deliberate manipulation of the specs to stop users from using their equipment as they want. And don't tell me that the designers of HDMI must have forgotten about letting audio go through as well as video. I don't even want full 5.1/7.1 - just stereo would have been fine.

I might be able to accomplish the same thing by adding another splitter from the input of my media player and feeding the output to both my amp and the kitchen display. It means that I lose the ability to play back from my DVD player but that isn't such a big deal. If I do want to play back a DVD or BLURAY I can always rip it and copy it to my media player. While I am at it I may as well make copies of all my DVDs and BR since I never know what I may need to watch in the kitchen. With all these copies what do I do if somebody wants to borrow one ? Give them a copy or lend them my original media ? No way to lending the original because I might never get it back. A classic case of the Law of Second Consequences. Oh wait, wasn't that one of the things they were trying to avoid anyway ? So to make my equipment work the way I want it to they are forcing me to an act of piracy. Short sighted useless marketing people.

I'll try that tomorrow.
post #14 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscalvert View Post

So no audio in the kitchen unless I switch off audio in the lounge. Now I read that this is a function of earlier implementations of HDMI but is it ? Since I have a switch function that allows one or the other it seems to me that if the switch could be fused together I would have both.

So I don't think that this is a function of HDMI at all but rather issues to do with HDCP and the RIAA etc who have decided in their infinite wisdom that I cannot have what is a perfectly legitimate requirement. In other words to protect digital content they have DELIBERATELY set the HDMI standard so that you CAN'T have HDMI audio in both locations. It is NOT inherent in the HDMI specs but rather a deliberate manipulation of the specs to stop users from using their equipment as they want. And don't tell me that the designers of HDMI must have forgotten about letting audio go through as well as video. I don't even want full 5.1/7.1 - just stereo would have been fine.

No, your conspiracy theory isn't the case here...

It's just simply a limitation of HDMI and the fact that it supports only one audio stream at a time, but that stream can be in many different formats. Audio could be anything from 2-channel PCM stereo to DTS-MA 7.1. The audio format is negotiated between the source device and the "sink" (TV or AVR). The source sends the "best" audio format that the receiving equipment can decode. When you split the HDMI signal to multiple receivers (sinks), the result is the common denominator that everyone can support. Since most TVs don't support surround audio formats (with only two speakers, it's a reasonable design decision), they will negotiate for 2-channel audio.

Your AVR says "wait a minute, I'll handle the audio, so give me the best audio available, and we're going to ignore the TV's speakers". Which is what that bypass mode enables or disables- when the TVs are allowed in the audio negotiations, you only get 2-channel audio.

The way around this is to use component video for secondary TVs with analog audio, so that they're not involved in the HDMI negotiations at all. That will work for many device, but not Blu-ray unless you get an older player that has component outputs - now THAT IS the fault of the MPAA!!!!!


Jeff
post #15 of 21
Hmm.. maybe it's not a conspiracy more like lack of thought about features and what consumers might want. Instead of a feature that allows me to select amp audio or TV audio I would have prefered to have the ability to switch between what audio I want at the end of my HDMI output cable. Or even if it was just always left to output stereo because it is easy enough to turn down the volume at the TV. Then the output could be fed anywhere on the same basis. eg TV's in several rooms. This is something I imagine a goodly number of people want to do.

I don't want my amp making every decision on my behalf.

As it happens I now have a splitter between my media player and the input to the amp and I have sound everywhere. Note that the kitchen TV has HDMI input and it seems to be handling whatever audio is coming from the media player.

I will have to check with one of my ripped movies that I know has 5.1 to see whether the kitchen TV or the amp is controlling what audio is presented. Or even if one ot the other suddenly stops playing. Actually I can do that easily and will check right now. No I can't - I deleted my copy of Avatar before I increased my HDD size. Well got something working now - stereo in the kitchen and 5 channel in the lounge. See below as to what I now want.

Actually I would have preferred HDMI to leave off all this auto selecting and leave it up to the receiving device to decide how to handle it. Most TVs probably don't support surround sound formats BUT surely the receiving HDMI interface in the TV could have been designed to decide how to handle the audio. Its a few integated circuits and you can build whatever you like into them. BUT I suspect RIAA etc had a lot to do with deciding what goes into HDMI so we come back to conspiracy theories. It might well be that whatever they decided to fix or control has nothing to do with this issue but this is a consequence of that decision. If so it demonstrates The Law of Second Consequences.

Okay what I need is a splitter that sequences turning on the output channlels. Channel 1 on first then 30 seconds later channel 2 and maybe all the channels. Then my output source will set itself up correctly for my amp then afterwards who cares. As long as HDMI doesn't recheck during playback. I tested this by leaving the kitchen TV off until everything was working in the lounge and then turning the kitchen TV on. This will work for me okay - not sure if my wife will remember to sequence things correctly though. HDMI is trying to be too "cute" for my liking.
I think that this is only required when I am playing back a DVD rip. TV series seem okay since it is probably the lowest common denominator.

Some progress anyway.
post #16 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscalvert View Post

Hmm.. maybe it's not a conspiracy more like lack of thought about features and what consumers might want. Instead of a feature that allows me to select amp audio or TV audio I would have prefered to have the ability to switch between what audio I want at the end of my HDMI output cable. Or even if it was just always left to output stereo because it is easy enough to turn down the volume at the TV. Then the output could be fed anywhere on the same basis. eg TV's in several rooms. This is something I imagine a goodly number of people want to do.

You can do that - most sources allow the selection of the audio format output. Fix the audio to 2-channel PCM "stereo" and everything will get that.
Quote:
I don't want my amp making every decision on my behalf.

It's a reasonable process given that the choice otherwise would be silence or static...
Quote:
Actually I would have preferred HDMI to leave off all this auto selecting and leave it up to the receiving device to decide how to handle it. Most TVs probably don't support surround sound formats BUT surely the receiving HDMI interface in the TV could have been designed to decide how to handle the audio. Its a few integated circuits and you can build whatever you like into them. BUT I suspect RIAA etc had a lot to do with deciding what goes into HDMI so we come back to conspiracy theories. It might well be that whatever they decided to fix or control has nothing to do with this issue but this is a consequence of that decision. If so it demonstrates The Law of Second Consequences.

No, it's licensing for the surround decoders and the chips to do the work, which adds dollars to the cost of the TV. Since the surround format doesn't do "any good" for the TV, the makers logically didn't raise their costs for no gain...

And the RIAA has nothing to do with HDMI. MPAA is the evil force behind HDCP (which is applied over HDMI), but none of this has anything to do with audio formats. HDMI came from DVI, the computer-to-monitor digital interface that didn't have any audio support. So they added it, and the format negotiation just like they did for video resolution / capabilities. But it didn't account for "distributed" video systems where multiple displays were connected to a single device. Simply wasn't something they dealt with...

Now, some newer models are including the decoders to deal with this - I suspect Dolby/DTS may have come up with a limited licensing scheme for 2-channel devices because of this issue - lowering the cost of implementation while expanding their own market...
Quote:
Okay what I need is a splitter that sequences turning on the output channlels. Channel 1 on first then 30 seconds later channel 2 and maybe all the channels. Then my output source will set itself up correctly for my amp then afterwards who cares. As long as HDMI doesn't recheck during playback. I tested this by leaving the kitchen TV off until everything was working in the lounge and then turning the kitchen TV on. This will work for me okay - not sure if my wife will remember to sequence things correctly though. HDMI is trying to be too "cute" for my liking.
I think that this is only required when I am playing back a DVD rip. TV series seem okay since it is probably the lowest common denominator.

The sequencing and compatibility checks may occur when you load media, change channels, input or some other event, so you'll have to trial and error to see what the behavior of your devices looks like.
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscalvert View Post

Hmm.. maybe it's not a conspiracy more like lack of thought about features and what consumers might want. Instead of a feature that allows me to select amp audio or TV audio I would have prefered to have the ability to switch between what audio I want at the end of my HDMI output cable. Or even if it was just always left to output stereo because it is easy enough to turn down the volume at the TV. Then the output could be fed anywhere on the same basis. eg TV's in several rooms. This is something I imagine a goodly number of people want to do.
HDMI cables carry audio, but the end point determines what the source delivers. This functionality is called EDID and is one huge bane in the entire setup of a system. It is possible to get around it, but it is difficult and very pricey at this time.

The problem is really in the original design being very short-sighted on the part of HDMI. The original design should have always called for any surround sound devices to include a secondary track of stereo PCM audio.

The headache right now is more to the point of no A/V receiver being capable of using HDMI to deliver stereo audio separately to a second zone while still delivering surround sound from a different source to the main zone (not one can do this that I've heard of). None can process HDMI digital audio to a second zone in a usable manner really. It's silly. Why not include that second stereo only track then you don't have to choose - you get both. HD audio for the A/V receiver, then it can still pass on the stereo audio to the TV so you get your choice of both. Have more than one zone? Use the stereo audio for all your stereo only areas, and retain HD audio for the surround zones. You keep and maintain both and no audio processing is necessary at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscalvert View Post

I don't want my amp making every decision on my behalf.
Your amp is a sink device, and by the rules of EDID, it must pass information back. It can pass on stereo audio to your TV, but then you lose the output from the A/V receiver as far as I know. You DO have a choice with most A/V receivers that I've seen, but it still isn't convenient from what I've seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscalvert View Post

As it happens I now have a splitter between my media player and the input to the amp and I have sound everywhere. Note that the kitchen TV has HDMI input and it seems to be handling whatever audio is coming from the media player.
Your media player is outputting stereo most likely that is compatible with your TV. It likely will never output DTS or HD audio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscalvert View Post

Okay what I need is a splitter that sequences turning on the output channlels. Channel 1 on first then 30 seconds later channel 2 and maybe all the channels. Then my output source will set itself up correctly for my amp then afterwards who cares. As long as HDMI doesn't recheck during playback. I tested this by leaving the kitchen TV off until everything was working in the lounge and then turning the kitchen TV on. This will work for me okay - not sure if my wife will remember to sequence things correctly though. HDMI is trying to be too "cute" for my liking.
EDID management will do this very nicely. It can limit audio to supported codecs and can force higher audio codecs when available. So, if your amp supports HD audio, then it can force HD audio, but any devices that don't support HD audio won't play audio back.
post #18 of 21
Thread Starter 
Wheew... coming to the end of the move and I hung a 70 inch Sharp in the dining room and a 60 inch Samsung in the bedroom. I still have to hang the 32 in the guest bathroom. Also ended up with a bad HDMI cable to the projector that was run in the wall (uggg). The cable in the wall was strapped to the studs by appropriate insulating strain reliefs. But after climbing in 18 inches of pink in the attic I was eventually able (30 mins) to yank it loose of the strain reliefs. And the string I attached to the end did not break!!! So I was able to feed the new one (that was the good luck part).


Here is/was a solution that I "was" counting on that appears NOT to work. I purchased a new Pioneer SC-72 receiver that has an HDMI matrix switcher built in. As I understand it this receiver can output two DIFFERENT sources at 5.1/7.1 to the internal amp AND a remote screen. But of course if you try route the same source (not different) to the internal amp at 5.1/7.1 and to a remote TV it also defaults the main zone to stereo (that I understand why now).

The idea... Since their are 7 inputs the idea was to split my DVDBD into two HDMI outputs and feed both into the BD input and the DVD input of the Pioneer. Then I would route input DB to the main system at 5.1/7.1 and route input DVD to the screen over the 2nd output over HDMI in stereo. But... did not work (dang). The picture/sound would just cut in and out under some negotiation confusion in the receiver. I thought it might be the receiver conflicting with a similar EDID address at two different inputs but do not know.
post #19 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichBell View Post

The idea... Since their are 7 inputs the idea was to split my DVDBD into two HDMI outputs and feed both into the BD input and the DVD input of the Pioneer. Then I would route input DB to the main system at 5.1/7.1 and route input DVD to the screen over the 2nd output over HDMI in stereo. But... did not work (dang). The picture/sound would just cut in and out under some negotiation confusion in the receiver. I thought it might be the receiver conflicting with a similar EDID address at two different inputs but do not know.

Nope, same issue - the EDID negotiation occurs between the display(s) and the source itself (the BD player), regardless of where the signal is split.
post #20 of 21
I think I have solved this problem now. Before I say what I have decided to do I have to mention that some of my previous posts were prompted by HDMI issues that I had been having. I have just discovered that my Denon AVR-890 had a dodgy HDMI output socket. I have since soldered up what looked like a dry joint on the socket so I am no longer getting intermittent sound dropouts that I thought might have been caused by HDMI issues and my current HDMI multiplexors. Plus I now have a larger selection of HDMI cables.

So my original problem is that I wanted to have two HDMI outputs from my amp with one going to the main lounge TV (and full audio processing from my amp) and the other to my kitchen TV. Basically I want to use HDMI as the A/V distribution medium. Until I found that the Denon amp would not let audio go out via HDMI if audio processing had been enabled within the amp. My solution to this will be to add a Cypress HDMI switch (CLUX-42S) to the input of my amp. This will allow me to select up to 4 inputs (I have 3) and two outputs of which one will go to the kitchen and the other to the main amp. Since this unit has a remote control I can set my Harmony One to select the inputs as the amp does at the moment. It does seem a joke that I have a big multi input amp but cannot use it in the most simple way because of carelessness/deliberate design issues with HDMI. This worked when I had a single input going to two outputs but was only suitable with one input whereas I wanted at least 2.
This is the coming weeks project.
post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscalvert View Post

My solution to this will be to add a Cypress HDMI switch (CLUX-42S) to the input of my amp. This will allow me to select up to 4 inputs (I have 3) and two outputs of which one will go to the kitchen and the other to the main amp.

Adding a matrix switch will only improve the situation if you're watching a different source in the kitchen. If you have the same source selected as the main lounge TV, the audio is going to act the same way as before - either no audio or the lack of surround audio. It's the source(s) that decide which audio format to send, not the switch or the AVR.

As I've mentioned to others, the simplest way to solve this problem for your kitchen TV is to use component video in parallel to HDMI. If your Blu-ray player is more than two years old, you've got everything you need...

Jeff
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