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post #121 of 334
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

I was not insulting your speakers, sorry, lol, I just meant that your AVR is more then enough to handle them, so there is no point in upgrading it. A new AVR with Room EQ is not going to give you a night & day difference in audio quality. In fact, its not even going to give you an audible difference. Only time you will get an audible difference is by upgrading your speakers.



Its really upto the person. What sounds good to you might not sound good to another. Look at Klipsch, people say you either love em or you hate them.

For me personally, I like fast speakers that are forward that delivers the big soundstage with good articulate bass and good vocals with a little bit of warmth, to keep it musical. Vapor Cirrus.

For others, some prefer the most natural sounding speakers that are flat, it dosen't have to be musical, they like that it sounds live and are hearing the real instruments. Audio Note.

And some old schools prefer laid back speakers that are just easy to listen to like the Harbeth.

Its really upto you.


Ultimately, I think in general the idea is that you would need a complete gear that would be transperent as possible and play the source. Its nice having the luxury of such system, when the source is hip-hop, the bass hits your chest, when its jazz you hear the most natural horns, and when its vocals, you feel the emotion etc.


But that would cost alot. The only problem.

Heard a system today with TAD. Soundstage was wall to wall, good articulate bass, nice liquid vocals, and natural sounding instruments while keeping it musical and fast.

whole set-up was $225,000.
Edited by NAIM101 - 9/27/13 at 10:43pm
post #122 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

* There isn't really an audible difference between any AVR in the $0 to $1000 range which is most peoples price range. Anybody on here who says they can hear a difference given the same source and speakers (assuming the AVR can drive the speakers at the same db level) is blowing smoke and fooling themselves. 85db via an AVR vs. 85db via an external amp will sound exactly the same

I think an assumption you are making is that the listener can differentiate when the AVR can properly drive the speaker. Can you please be more specific on this point...how do you know when the thing is driving them properly or not. I have never seen a receiver indicate that it is doing a marginal job.
post #123 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I think an assumption you are making is that the listener can differentiate when the AVR can properly drive the speaker. Can you please be more specific on this point...how do you know when the thing is driving them properly or not. I have never seen a receiver indicate that it is doing a marginal job.

Ocsiliscope?
post #124 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

First he could work on optimising what he already has.

How much acoustic symmetry do you have with your room? How much space do the speakers have? How well integrated are the subs? How smooth and free of big dips and peaks is the measured frequency response from the listening position?

I have a miserable flat when it comes to set up. I have a moderately narrow open flat that some refer to as a junior one bedroom (meaning there is no true wall between the living area and the bedroom. It is furthered by high ceiling and a couple of angles within the main area.

At present, I have a speaker about 10" away on each side of my 65" plasma and a center channel below. I have my left and right speakers slightly toed in for listening. The acoustics are a bit daft so it is mostly by trial and error without using any calibration as there is no sub attached to the system (my neighbors below would not be too happy given the somewhat lousy floor/ceiling below my feet.

Sorry this is not to scale. Only doors is the entrance and the bathroom. The division between living area and bedroom is a short cabinet so basically above the cabinet it is one large open place with very high ceilings. The seating area is just a bit further out than an equal-lateral triangle with respect to the speakers. Unfortunately, I don't have an accurate drawing just this fast sketch. The flat is a bit narrower on the vertical than presented.

As for the AON 3's, they seem to get reasonable reviews that favour them as far as bookshelf speakers go and fairly efficient. 38 to 35khrz, 90 on efficiency and consists of a 7" bass/mid and 1" folded ribbon tweeter. While specs are not always accurate, they are reasonable reference points. Ultimately, I'll have two more on teh back wall behind the couch and a new horizontal center that is just coming out by GE.

post #125 of 334
Thread Starter 
How can you say an AVR and a seprate amp that have different crossover and wiring will sound exactly the same? Like I said, in general, all mainstream AVR's use similar amps and dacs and processors so its fair to say you cant really tell a difference between the common AVR, but you play the same source through with about the same volume between a Denon AVR and a McIntosh amp, the McIntosh will carry far greater soundstage and bass as clean output without distortion at higher and lower levels.

Many people assume that a good sign of a working AVR or AMP is cleaner output and higher volume, but its actually the opposite. Its better sound at lower volumes. And with all the processer chips doing the processing, and all the heat and the power supply right next to the processor chip wired up and crossover'd in the shittiest way will get you noweher near the sound of a good seperate.
post #126 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrehdd View Post

The division between living area and bedroom is a short cabinet so basically above the cabinet it is one large open place with very high ceilings.

Good. The more open space the better.
Quote:
The seating area is just a bit further out than an equal-lateral triangle with respect to the speakers.

I have always preferred to be closer to the speakers than they are further apart so it puts them at a wider angle. I find this gives a wider more 3D soundstage.

If that was my room I would do something more like this...

_layout_me.jpg 92k .jpg file

Advantages... It will give the speakers more space to the side walls and more space from the wall behind them. You would be able to sit closer to the speakers with them further apart at the same time. There will be more acoustic symmetry.

No idea how practical or impractical that would be for you and that room but just giving an example to think about.
post #127 of 334
Thanks - I appreciate the suggestion. That has crossed my mind but it has some flaws in some respects with entering the flat. I still may give it a try given that my speakers are on stands and I do have a "cart" that I can put the tv on temporarily (it is mounted to the wall presently).

On another topic - I still see that the exchange on AVR vs seps is still going on. Has anyone considered the pre amp section of an AVR vs pre separate? How much different are they beyond bells and whistles? Years ago, I built a very nice Dynaco (I think that is how it is spelled) pre-amp. It had a nice output for a headset and frankly, the sound was far superior to that of my then integrated Yamaha stereo amp. The Yamaha at the time time really did have a diffrent sound than the typical receivers of the time and the Dynaco with an amp had a beautiful sound. I have no idea if it was accurate but played well on a few different speaker systems.

With the advent of both music and* surround for movies and some music, it is a different ball game now for me with a bit of a learning curve with respect to bells and whistles as well as room corrections via AVR tools (Audessy etc.).

The only thing I can say which is upbeat, friends LOVE coming over to watch movies and even with the 3.0 audio presently, they enjoy the audio as well as the video from the NAS/Oppo to the Marantz that feeds the speakers and the plasma. I didn't imagine I would have to see the Star Trek movies so many times, Sin City and a few others - sigh.
post #128 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrehdd View Post

Thanks - I appreciate the suggestion. That has crossed my mind but it has some flaws in some respects with entering the flat. I still may give it a try given that my speakers are on stands and I do have a "cart" that I can put the tv on temporarily (it is mounted to the wall presently).

On another topic - I still see that the exchange on AVR vs seps is still going on. Has anyone considered the pre amp section of an AVR vs pre separate? How much different are they beyond bells and whistles? Years ago, I built a very nice Dynaco (I think that is how it is spelled) pre-amp. It had a nice output for a headset and frankly, the sound was far superior to that of my then integrated Yamaha stereo amp. The Yamaha at the time time really did have a diffrent sound than the typical receivers of the time and the Dynaco with an amp had a beautiful sound. I have no idea if it was accurate but played well on a few different speaker systems.

With the advent of both music and* surround for movies and some music, it is a different ball game now for me with a bit of a learning curve with respect to bells and whistles as well as room corrections via AVR tools (Audessy etc.).

The only thing I can say which is upbeat, friends LOVE coming over to watch movies and even with the 3.0 audio presently, they enjoy the audio as well as the video from the NAS/Oppo to the Marantz that feeds the speakers and the plasma. I didn't imagine I would have to see the Star Trek movies so many times, Sin City and a few others - sigh.

I have a $4500 7.1 pre-amp and couldn't hear any differences although I did no controlled volume matched test that I can switch back and forth with so it's not fair of me to say there isn't a difference. Just going off of memory, I'm not able to hear a difference in my room. Same goes for my $2000 Blu-ray player vs my PS3 using memory. It's way better quality and has it's own power supply however, it lacks features as everyone else mentioned. If you want 11 channel, XT32 and newest surround formats, you're better off with the cheaper brands. I don't even think it has a USB to play music from. I've been frusterated with the high end gear.

It's up for sale btw and um, it's really awsome you'll be blown away by the extra bass and soundstage. Let me know if you're interested.
Edited by snyderkv - 9/28/13 at 2:10am
post #129 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

I was not insulting your speakers, sorry, lol, I just meant that your AVR is more then enough to handle them, so there is no point in upgrading it. A new AVR with Room EQ is not going to give you a night & day difference in audio quality. In fact, its not even going to give you an audible difference. Only time you will get an audible difference is by upgrading your speakers.

The portion of your statement I've highlighted above is just too broad and frankly, careless of a generalization to make. Apart from the audiophool contingent who put equal or higher value upon the front end (amp, cd/digital player, etc.), I think we all agree that speakers (and room environment & setup) are the most important. But many people have and do also experience "audible differences" with "Room EQ", which in many cases are seen as positive differences.
Edited by CruelInventions - 9/28/13 at 3:36am
post #130 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

Good. The more open space the better.
I have always preferred to be closer to the speakers than they are further apart so it puts them at a wider angle. I find this gives a wider more 3D soundstage.

If that was my room I would do something more like this...

_layout_me.jpg 92k .jpg file

Advantages... It will give the speakers more space to the side walls and more space from the wall behind them. You would be able to sit closer to the speakers with them further apart at the same time. There will be more acoustic symmetry.

No idea how practical or impractical that would be for you and that room but just giving an example to think about.

That layout will prove a graveyard to bass frequencies when a subwoofer is mixed in the setup later.
post #131 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

That layout will prove a graveyard to bass frequencies when a subwoofer is mixed in the setup later.

Yes with the LP close to the centre of the room... but at present as he hasn't got a sub and may never get a sub for that room... I would at least try to enjoy better stereo imaging/soundstage.
post #132 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I think an assumption you are making is that the listener can differentiate when the AVR can properly drive the speaker. Can you please be more specific on this point...how do you know when the thing is driving them properly or not. I have never seen a receiver indicate that it is doing a marginal job.

If you are listening to your speakers at a specific volume and you don't hear distortion and/or clipping, your AVR can "properly drive your speakers". That's really all there is to it. If you start to hear problems at 95db and you like to listen at 120db, you need a more powerful amp.
post #133 of 334
Quote:
If you are listening to your speakers at a specific volume and you don't hear distortion and/or clipping, your AVR can "properly drive your speakers". That's really all there is to it. If you start to hear problems at 95db and you like to listen at 120db, you need a more powerful amp.

+1
post #134 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

How can you say an AVR and a seprate amp that have different crossover and wiring will sound exactly the same? Like I said, in general, all mainstream AVR's use similar amps and dacs and processors so its fair to say you cant really tell a difference between the common AVR, but you play the same source through with about the same volume between a Denon AVR and a McIntosh amp, the McIntosh will carry far greater soundstage and bass as clean output without distortion at higher and lower levels.

Many people assume that a good sign of a working AVR or AMP is cleaner output and higher volume, but its actually the opposite. Its better sound at lower volumes. And with all the processer chips doing the processing, and all the heat and the power supply right next to the processor chip wired up and crossover'd in the shittiest way will get you noweher near the sound of a good seperate.

You will never be able to hear a difference in the average American living room between a $100 Denon AVR and a $10,000 McIntosh amp. If you have a large dedicated hometheater in your basement with an 11.2 quality speaker setup, I might say you need an amp. Consumer grade speakers in a 20x20 room? An external amp is waaay too much power for the space.
post #135 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

The portion of your statement I've highlighted above is just too broad and frankly, careless of a generalization to make. Apart from the audiophool contingent who put equal or higher value upon the front end (amp, cd/digital player, etc.), I think we all agree that speakers (and room environment & setup) are the most important. But many people have and do also experience "audible differences" with "Room EQ", which in many cases are seen as positive differences.

Yeah, and there are a lot of people who don't like what the room EQ does too smile.gif. If you have an AVR with it, I'd say, yeah, of course, try it and see if you like what it does. I have not seen too many people on here say it made a night & day difference. A 1% improvement is an improvement of course, but its not worth going out and upgrading your AVR for.
post #136 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Don't feed the naim troll! That bit about the 75% of an avr's power for a sub on a pre-out is priceless.
That's REDICULOUS it's an RCA out from the the Avr which puts out 2 volts the sub at a variable output won't even draw 1 volt to run the sub.
Which has no effect on the amp section of the Avr what so ever who is this guy. Do they not have moderators on this site this guy is as dumb as a beetle. He is on here like he is saving the world from bad audio his remarks and advice are wrong but they are funny to read. But could make somebody buy something they don't need and that's not cool. I love reading bs like that when it's totally obvious he knows nothing at all about audio. But If you own electronics that makes you an expert. Do you Really think the naim man thinks a sub will take 75 percent of an avr,s power that is funny.
post #137 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Yeah, and there are a lot of people who don't like what the room EQ does too smile.gif. If you have an AVR with it, I'd say, yeah, of course, try it and see if you like what it does. I have not seen too many people on here say it made a night & day difference. A 1% improvement is an improvement of course, but its not worth going out and upgrading your AVR for.

A lot of people not liking XT32 sounds misinformed to me. Just read the Odyssey thread and you'll see that XT32 (not XT) does make a night and day difference. Maybe someone who wasn't doing it correctly or had to make some minor modifications after calibration. Then you have the pro setup which is even better. I just don't see how you came to that conclusion.
post #138 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

* There isn't really an audible difference between any AVR in the $0 to $1000 range which is most peoples price range. Anybody on here who says they can hear a difference given the same source and speakers (assuming the AVR can drive the speakers at the same db level) is blowing smoke and fooling themselves. 85db via an AVR vs. 85db via an external amp will sound exactly the same

I think an assumption you are making is that the listener can differentiate when the AVR can properly drive the speaker. Can you please be more specific on this point...how do you know when the thing is driving them properly or not. I have never seen a receiver indicate that it is doing a marginal job.

I think that you are making a legitimate point. Your question would be answered very well if AVRs had clipping indicators. It would be at least partially answered if AVRs had output power level meters. I know of no AVRs with either.
post #139 of 334
Quote:
It's just funny that the people who recommend the AVR's dont really have any idea how much a sub draws power from the amp. A sub in any receiver will draw about 75% of the power.
This comment is so awesome it deserves some sort of an award. smile.gif

More importantly: If a sub connected to an AVR's subwoofer pre-output steals power from the AVR, at least it has power. A sub connected to a pre/pro's subwoofer pre-output has no power. No power = no subwooferage. Advantage: AVR! cool.gif
post #140 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post

When is someone going to report this fool?
I did and then deleted it.
NAIM101 is harmless but is what I consider a polluter.
Posting totally mindless, pointless, meaningless drivel.
That members bother to respond only feeds the mindlessness.
This twerp doesn't know anything, can't prove he owns anything, and regurgitates ad copy from wherever.
I can't fathom what motivates him to do what he does but this is the internet and it requires no key code.
You would have thought this kind of wanking would be worn out by 2013, but apparently there are still wankers at large.
C'mon mods, please, make it stop.
Well done sir. I don't know why someone would just spit stuff out with any regard to somebody that might take his awful advice. The Avr sub thing is so funny one guy on here said I didn't know they still had passive subs. But that's probably how he hooked his sub up speaker level because he owns a Bose HT. Don't they have mods on this sight? Any way good job I could not he said it any better. 👍 He would never tell me his system I ask but didn't understand him much like his advice.
post #141 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

It's just funny that the people who recommend the AVR's dont really have any idea how much a sub draws power from the amp. A sub in any reciever will draw about 75% of the power. You have members that have just joined asking for what to drive their speakers and subs with and all the advices given are go with a 5.1 or 7.1 AVR's which states 100 wpc (and alot of it is prabably BS as well its alot lower) so you are stuck with a 100wpc reciever driving 87 efficient speakers, most of the time 5 of them at a time + a sub. So in reality, the speaker is getting about 20 wpc with a common AVR driving 87 or lower effcient speakers. And many say they sound the same as a stereo AMP which are giving in solid state case, 100wpc clean.


???

 

??? indeed. You do realise, I guess, (or maybe you don't) that almost all subs have their own independent amplifiers?

 

EDIT: I see others have already remarked on the nonsensical nature of the comment. I'll leave the post just to add my 2 cents.

post #142 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

It's just funny that the people who recommend the AVR's dont really have any idea how much a sub draws power from the amp. A sub in any reciever will draw about 75% of the power.

The above statement is IMO a good example of a way to position oneself as being totally clueless about modern audio. If you even look at the back of an AVR (which its author must have never done) one sees that subwoofer outputs are RCA jack(s) and that all the other speaker outputs are big heavy speaker wire binding posts. Here is an example:



The RCA jack delivers signals on the order of 2 volts or less into the amplifier input of active subwoofers that have a typical input impedance of 5,000 ohms or more for a total power drain of less than one thousandth of a watt. In comparison each speaker output of an AVR is capable of from 30 to 120 watts or more. A sub will thus draw less than 0.01% of the AVRs power capability, which is just a trifle less than the 75% that has been claimed. ;-)
post #143 of 334
Guys, please, stop feeding Naim. The more attention you give him, the more he will troll.
post #144 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

It just baffles me after hearing from someone that this forum got hijacked by members saying that AVR sounds the same as seperates and all amps sound the same etc. only to find out today it wasnt like this before and this was a REAL audio forum. I really honestly wanted to know if some of the old members really think there is no difference. I mean,


How can you say THIS









Sound the same as THIS??? (Denon AVR)










I really wanted to hear some honest opinons from the old members. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

they are both pictures so sound the same = no sound !

Seriously, posting a picture of some box w/parts, then another box with parts, and then expecting a debate?
More like a troll IMO, have fun with your thread.

Edited by wadia 9 - 9/28/13 at 8:31pm
post #145 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

??? indeed. You do realise, I guess, (or maybe you don't) that almost all subs have their own independent amplifiers?

Well, he seems about as up to the play as your typical "hi-end" amp manufacturer.
post #146 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadia 9 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

they are both pictures so sound the same = no sound !

Seriously, posting a picture of some box w/parts, then another box with parts, and then expecting a debate?
More like a troll IMO, have fun with your thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Guys, please, stop feeding Naim. The more attention you give him, the more he will troll.
Your right I deleted my post the subwoofer thing is inexcusable
post #147 of 334
A serious flaw in all of this is that we can't separate the amp sections of modern AVR's in order to truly compare them. Different amplifier technologies have different pros/cons. I would never expect that 2different amps built on 2 different technologies would sound identical and I think it is foolish to believe that they would. There will be some folks out there that agree with me and some that don't and that is fine. It just bothers me when people say alway/never. Instead we should encourage people to explore and try things out.
post #148 of 334
New thread
post #149 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

A serious flaw in all of this is that we can't separate the amp sections of modern AVR's in order to truly compare them. Different amplifier technologies have different pros/cons. I would never expect that 2different amps built on 2 different technologies would sound identical and I think it is foolish to believe that they would. There will be some folks out there that agree with me and some that don't and that is fine. It just bothers me when people say alway/never. Instead we should encourage people to explore and try things out.

I'm curious; what evidence or knowledge or information (aside from the subjective anecdotal type) would lead you to believe that two SS amps (not AVR's) functioning under clipping would sound different?
post #150 of 334
Thread Starter 
Because the parts used in seperate amps are different. Wiring to XO to power supply to dac to gain etc are all different and not one brand of amp is identical to another. And all of that will change the sound.
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