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post #61 of 334
I can just LMAO
post #62 of 334
My favorite lines are it opened up the soundstage and improved either the singers voice or deeper bass by adding an external amp so somehow it incorporated some magical circuit other than strictly amplifying the original signal that the internal amps lack lol.
post #63 of 334
Quote:
My favorite lines are it opened up the soundstage and improved either the singers voice or deeper bass by adding an external amp so somehow it incorporated some magical circuit other than strictly amplifying the original signal that the internal amps lack lol.

Yes that was ticklish and funny biggrin.gif knowing fully well that it's not the amp rather the speakers that actually reproduce sound.
post #64 of 334
I think a good portion of this debate has to do with the usage of the equipment. I have a large open area (14,000+ cubic feet 40x40x9) living room and kitchen area open to each other, low efficiency speakers (83db), speakers that claim to dip to 4 ohms, and no sub. Is this too much for a mid-level AVR? In my experience, the answer is yes. The separates seem to have an easier job. Could a $2000 receiver do a good job in my situation? Quite possibly.

I never questioned the value, features, simplicity of an AVR. In those terms, they rock. My previous comments were focused on the amplifier sections only.
post #65 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I think a good portion of this debate has to do with the usage of the equipment. I have a large open area (14,000+ cubic feet 40x40x9) living room and kitchen area open to each other, low efficiency speakers (83db), speakers that claim to dip to 4 ohms, and no sub. Is this too much for a mid-level AVR? In my experience, the answer is yes..

Tell me about your experience because my 1/2 century of experience in audio tells me otherwise. Let's look at common sense again. The typical receiver produces about 100 watts per channel. If you were to put a 200 watt per channel amplifier in place, that would produce only a 3 db addition to overhead. 400 watts per channel would give a 6 db increase in overhead.

If you have a multimeter, set it to read milliamps and put it in series with one of your speaker leads. Multiply the reading by 120 to get your power usage. You can play test tones using the volume setting you normally use to listen. That will make reading the current easier. After that you will have a better understanding of what I am talking about.

Your speakers are 8 ohms nominal which is high impedance. All speakers have peaks and valleys in the impedance curve. That's normal and nothing to worry about. You've been paying too much attention to the separate amplifier manufacturers' marketing. Problems occur at full rated output, not normal listening levels. Take the readings and you will understand. 3 to 6 db of overhead isn't really that important.
Edited by FMW - 9/27/13 at 9:21am
post #66 of 334
See post 19
post #67 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

See post 19

A post that seems to have a serious flaw - it appears to be based on a sighted evaluation.
post #68 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I think a good portion of this debate has to do with the usage of the equipment. I have a large open area (14,000+ cubic feet 40x40x9) living room and kitchen area open to each other, low efficiency speakers (83db), speakers that claim to dip to 4 ohms, and no sub. Is this too much for a mid-level AVR? In my experience, the answer is yes. The separates seem to have an easier job. Could a $2000 receiver do a good job in my situation? Quite possibly.

I never questioned the value, features, simplicity of an AVR. In those terms, they rock. My previous comments were focused on the amplifier sections only.
In your case I would be using 1000 w mono blocks at 83db and no sub in a large room to get what the rest of might with a 100wpc AVR using a sub crossed over at 80Hz and 91db/1w/1m speakers.
post #69 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Yes that was ticklish and funny biggrin.gif knowing fully well that it's not the amp rather the speakers that actually reproduce sound.

The concept is that amplifier overhead affects sound quality when it is overhead and not being used. That's been an audio myth for as long as I can remember. I don't even remember when it started but it took hold with a vengeance. You can't explain to some people that unused amplifier power simply isn't used.
post #70 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I think a good portion of this debate has to do with the usage of the equipment. I have a large open area (14,000+ cubic feet 40x40x9) living room and kitchen area open to each other, low efficiency speakers (83db), speakers that claim to dip to 4 ohms, and no sub. Is this too much for a mid-level AVR? In my experience, the answer is yes. The separates seem to have an easier job. Could a $2000 receiver do a good job in my situation? Quite possibly.

I never questioned the value, features, simplicity of an AVR. In those terms, they rock. My previous comments were focused on the amplifier sections only.

Despite the fact that you specify a lot of things in your post, one set of critical omissions are your preferred listening level and seating location. Another is the exact make and model of your speakers.

Can *any* AVR handle your possible situation (low efficiency speakers and a relatively large room) and produce reference levels half way across the room? I don't think so.

The omission of a subwoofer also feeds into the equation. AVRs and subs are a good match.

With the low efficiency of your speakers and probable listening locations, power amps in the 1-3 killowatt per channel range seem indicated. AFAIK, there aren't any such things.

Low efficiency speakers are also generally only capable of relatively modest power (say 200 wpc), and one-three kilowatt amps will blow their fuses (if they have any) or slowly cook their voice coils over a reasonable period - several weeks to a year.


OTOH, if your choice of listening levels are a more typical reference - 10-15 dB and/or you only sit 9-12 feet away from the speakers then the AVR will do the job.

"It all depends" and you can quote me on that! ;-) Like you say, it depends on usage.
post #71 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

In your case I would be using 1000 w mono blocks at 83db and no sub in a large room to get what the rest of might with a 100wpc AVR using a sub crossed over at 80Hz and 91db/1w/1m speakers.

That makes an assumption that either the listening position is as far from the speakers as possible or that the goal is to put normal listening levels to furthest point. Just deal with the area around the speakers and listening position. The AVR should handle it without working up a sweat.
post #72 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I think a good portion of this debate has to do with the usage of the equipment. I have a large open area (14,000+ cubic feet 40x40x9) living room and kitchen area open to each other, low efficiency speakers (83db), speakers that claim to dip to 4 ohms, and no sub. Is this too much for a mid-level AVR? In my experience, the answer is yes. The separates seem to have an easier job. Could a $2000 receiver do a good job in my situation? Quite possibly.

I never questioned the value, features, simplicity of an AVR. In those terms, they rock. My previous comments were focused on the amplifier sections only.
In your case I would be using 1000 w mono blocks at 83db and no sub in a large room to get what the rest of might with a 100wpc AVR using a sub crossed over at 80Hz and 91db/1w/1m speakers.

+1

Frankly, when people start talking 40 x 40 rooms, high efficiency ( real actual 95-99 dB/W speakers) come to mind.
post #73 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

My favorite lines are it opened up the soundstage and improved either the singers voice or deeper bass by adding an external amp so somehow it incorporated some magical circuit other than strictly amplifying the original signal that the internal amps lack lol.

+1

Lines like that literally scream "sighted evaluation". ;-)
post #74 of 334
I listening position is back 17 feet from the speakers. Mirage m1-si is make and model. I don't listen at reference.
post #75 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

That makes an assumption that either the listening position is as far from the speakers as possible or that the goal is to put normal listening levels to furthest point. Just deal with the area around the speakers and listening position. The AVR should handle it without working up a sweat.
Not at all no matter what the level at 83db speakers and no sub in that size room that would tax a flagship if dynamics hit in music or movies.
Some speakers were never meant to be driven with an AVR Maggies come to mind if you intend on playing them loud and they will just stop getting louder at some point no matter how many watts you through at them.
post #76 of 334
That's my point. AVRs may work well in most circumstances, but there are times where they don't. I'm not purposefully trying to stir the pot for sh!ts and giggles.
post #77 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

The concept is that amplifier overhead affects sound quality when it is overhead and not being used. That's been an audio myth for as long as I can remember. I don't even remember when it started but it took hold with a vengeance. You can't explain to some people that unused amplifier power simply isn't used.

Actually I think it means enough power to handle db spikes. Uncompressed DTS-True blu ray or classical can swing 25db so I read. So at an average listening level of 75db for dialogue, cymbals/explosions can spike to 100+ for movies/classical music. If you start with low efficiency speakers, say 87 then you'd need 64 watts to handle 105db spikes then additional 3db for every doubling of the distance? So it's possible in a large room he'd 128-256 watts however who knows if the distortion at those levels are audible or if the user even knows what db he's listening at. Most people think they hit reference levels only to find out it's like 80db.
Edited by snyderkv - 9/27/13 at 10:20am
post #78 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I listening position is back 17 feet from the speakers. Mirage m1-si is make and model. I don't listen at reference.

OK, let's put numbers to it. The speakers are 83 db sensitive. That means they will produce 83 db sound pressure at 1 meter with 1 watt of power. You sit a little less than 6 meters away. Every doubling of the distance reduces the SPL by 3 db. So with 1 watt of power you are getting 71 db SPL. That's where I normally listen. Let's say you listen at 80 db. That would require 8 watts. Lets give ourselves plenty of headroom to handle peaks in the music. 10X is normal. Now we are at 80 watts or just about full output for a low end AVR. The AVR has plenty of power to handle your speakers in your listening room even with peaks.

The confusion comes from the pro audio world where they have to fill auditorium sized spaces or even pump sound into the great outdoors. In those cases they aren't dealng with 17 feet. they are dealing with a couple of hundred feet or more. It is a completely different world from home audio. Much of the "common knowledge" in the home audio world came from pro audio but much of it is either not applicable or unimportant for home audio.
post #79 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by snyderkv View Post

Actually I think it means enough power to handle db spikes. Uncompressed DTS-True blu ray or classical can swing 25db so I read. So at an average listening level of 75db for dialogue, cymbals/explosions can spike to 100+ for movies/classical music. If you start with low efficiency speakers, say 87 then you'd need 64 watts to handle 105db spikes then additional 3db for every doubling of the distance? So it's possible in a large room he'd need seperates to achieve live or reference levels at least without distortion which may not yet be audible at this point? Never tested it. Also, it seems like most people that think they are listening at crazy loud volumes often are surprised to learn it's only 70-90db once tested.

You misunderstood or I didn't write well. Yes overhead is necessary to handle peaks. I was talking about audiophiles believing that the overhead can change the sound when it is not being used. That, of course, is nonsense. I don't know the number but THX does specify the maximum loudness of LFE in movies. It is indeed over 100 DB. But in the great majority of home theaters that is handled by a powered subwoofer. LFE wouldn't get anywhere near that kind of sound pressure level with a pair of stereo speakers. That's why people use subwoofers. I would certainly agree that powering a subwoofer with an AV receiver amplifier would be inadequate. I've been talking about stereo pairs, not subwoofers, in case I wasn't clear.
post #80 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

OK, let's put numbers to it. The speakers are 83 db sensitive. That means they will produce 83 db sound pressure at 1 meter with 1 watt of power. You sit a little less than 6 meters away. Every doubling of the distance reduces the SPL by 3 db. So with 1 watt of power you are getting 71 db SPL. That's where I normally listen. Let's say you listen at 80 db. That would require 8 watts. Lets give ourselves plenty of headroom to handle peaks in the music. 10X is normal. Now we are at 80 watts or just about full output for a low end AVR. The AVR has plenty of power to handle your speakers in your listening room even with peaks.

The confusion comes from the pro audio world where they have to fill auditorium sized spaces or even pump sound into the great outdoors. In those cases they aren't dealng with 17 feet. they are dealing with a couple of hundred feet or more. It is a completely different world from home audio. Much of the "common knowledge" in the home audio world came from pro audio but much of it is either not applicable or unimportant for home audio.

Thanks for putting numbers to this. I wish I had an spl meter to give better levels. I totally agree that the mirages are inefficient, and as a result need a good deal more power behind them compared to more efficient speakers, but I like them and will continue to use them for a while. They don't need a sub either.

I really wonder how much of an affect the differences in capacitance in the amps have on things. My AVR screen flickers dims in sync with bass notes when I bring the mirages up to normal volumes. The louder it goes, the more it dims. The klout doesn't have any screen to suggest anything.

When you use the crossovers in an AVR they limit the frequencies that the amp needs to reproduce. By removing these frequencies or reducing them, do we make it an easier task for the amplifier?

Personally I think I am just asking for more than the receiver can deliver.
post #81 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

OK, let's put numbers to it. The speakers are 83 db sensitive. That means they will produce 83 db sound pressure at 1 meter with 1 watt of power. You sit a little less than 6 meters away. Every doubling of the distance reduces the SPL by 3 db. So with 1 watt of power you are getting 71 db SPL. That's where I normally listen. Let's say you listen at 80 db. That would require 8 watts. Lets give ourselves plenty of headroom to handle peaks in the music. 10X is normal. Now we are at 80 watts or just about full output for a low end AVR. The AVR has plenty of power to handle your speakers in your listening room even with peaks.

The confusion comes from the pro audio world where they have to fill auditorium sized spaces or even pump sound into the great outdoors. In those cases they aren't dealng with 17 feet. they are dealing with a couple of hundred feet or more. It is a completely different world from home audio. Much of the "common knowledge" in the home audio world came from pro audio but much of it is either not applicable or unimportant for home audio.
Problem is most bench test the low end AVR might deliver closer to 50 and not 80 wpc that would require something in the mid line and up because mfg's love to post figures right at or close to 1% distortion these days now hook 7 or 9 channels up and that figure drops some more and most budget AVR's barely deliver more at 4ohm than at 8 making the situation worse.
post #82 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

Thanks for putting numbers to this. I wish I had an spl meter to give better levels. I totally agree that the mirages are inefficient, and as a result need a good deal more power behind them compared to more efficient speakers, but I like them and will continue to use them for a while. They don't need a sub either.

If you like the speakers then there isn't much to worry about. That is the important part. They may not need a sub but you would be amazed at what one will do for movie LFE.
Quote:
I really wonder how much of an affect the differences in capacitance in the amps have on things. My AVR screen flickers dims in sync with bass notes when I bring the mirages up to normal volumes. The louder it goes, the more it dims. The klout doesn't have any screen to suggest anything.

That is bizarre. I don't know what causes it but my wild guess would be that you have too much plugged into that outlet or that power circuit.
Quote:
When you use the crossovers in an AVR they limit the frequencies that the amp needs to reproduce. By removing these frequencies or reducing them, do we make it an easier task for the amplifier?

Personally I think I am just asking for more than the receiver can deliver.

The crossover simply separates out the subwoofer and lets you choose how the AVR or Pre Pro handles bass management. In my case, I leave my towers as "large" so they play everthing. Then I set the AVR up to simply add subwoofer content to the total from 80 hz on down. Others set the speakers as small. That will normally remove everything below the cutoff frequency for bass management from the stereo pair. In your case there is no sub so none of this applies. Think about getting one. It helps any home theater no matter how competent the stereo pair is. To answer your question, the subwoofer can make life easier for the amplifier. Since most of the power required is for the low frequencies, moving some or all of them to a powered sub definitely reduces the current draw from the stereo pair.
post #83 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Problem is most bench test the low end AVR might deliver closer to 50 and not 80 wpc that would require something in the mid line and up because mfg's love to post figures right at or close to 1% distortion these days now hook 7 or 9 channels up and that figure drops some more and most budget AVR's barely deliver more at 4ohm than at 8 making the situation worse.

I know but your talking to someone who actually uses and listens to a low end AVR in his bedroom with insensitive 4 ohm speakers. I'm not talking about bench tests. I'm talking about real life.
post #84 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

OK, let's put numbers to it. The speakers are 83 db sensitive. That means they will produce 83 db sound pressure at 1 meter with 1 watt of power. You sit a little less than 6 meters away. Every doubling of the distance reduces the SPL by 3 db. So with 1 watt of power you are getting 71 db SPL. That's where I normally listen. Let's say you listen at 80 db. That would require 8 watts. Lets give ourselves plenty of headroom to handle peaks in the music. 10X is normal. Now we are at 80 watts or just about full output for a low end AVR. The AVR has plenty of power to handle your speakers in your listening room even with peaks.

The confusion comes from the pro audio world where they have to fill auditorium sized spaces or even pump sound into the great outdoors. In those cases they aren't dealng with 17 feet. they are dealing with a couple of hundred feet or more. It is a completely different world from home audio. Much of the "common knowledge" in the home audio world came from pro audio but much of it is either not applicable or unimportant for home audio.

Why not just point people in the direction of a good speaker power calculator and let them work out how much they probably need.

i.e... http://www.allegrosound.com/Power_AllegroSound.html
post #85 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

I don't think that technology has really improved the sound quality of amplifiers that much in the last 20 years. I have a pair of old Mirage M1si's and when I power them through my pioneer vsx1120 which is 110watts per channel I can tell you that the sound is nowhere near as nice as when I use my Linn Klout which is only 80 watts.

I firmly believe that the receiver has a lot of features, but in my experience, it is nowhere near the quality of a good amp. I do realize I am comparing apples and oranges but I do not feel that the quality between the two is that close yet. Granted my speakers area tad inefficient, but at moderate volumes the two amps are nowhere close. The Klout has way deeper bass, and it is just easier to follow the inhividual notes/voices than it is when listening to the receiver in direct pure stereo mode. It just sounds like it is cruising along whereas the receiver sounds like it is having as hard time/straining. I wanted the receiver to do well...it would be much simpler/cheaper if it could manage...but it didn't in my situation

Flame suit on.

I'm glad you posted this because I have an amp that sounds better than my receivers too. I'm sick of people stating that I didn't do a double blind, bla, bla bla... Seriously, do they think everyone's opinion is moot unless they setup an extensive test. It's not a huge difference, but I can hear it in certain passages. I'm not imagining it.

I generally don't recommend buying separates because the differences, in most cases, doesn't justify the cost.
post #86 of 334
I don't think he meant it was impossible to put a 4 ohm load on an amp. It will work fine until you brush the limits of the amp. With my bigger room, i feel I hit my receiver limits sooner than I would in a smaller room.

I have a dedicated line for the receiver/tv/cable box/DVD. 20 amp line on 10 ga from a 400 amp panel.

How does lack of available current manifest itself in an amplifier? I am not talking gross shortages where the thing goes into protection, but typical sags and shortages.

No doubt a sub would be nice to have.
post #87 of 334
That calculator says I need 1100 watts to hit 100 db with my setup.
post #88 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post


Problem is most bench test the low end AVR might deliver closer to 50 and not 80 wpc that would require something in the mid line and up because mfg's love to post figures right at or close to 1% distortion these days now hook 7 or 9 channels up and that figure drops some more and most budget AVR's barely deliver more at 4ohm than at 8 making the situation worse.

Problem is that many people don't understand the consequences of what we all know - that almost all bench tests are done with sine waves, while we listen to hi fi gear with music.

Power supplies which are the common power limiting point of AVRs are required provide long term average power into unvarying resistive loads on the test bench because tests are done with pure sine waves for minutes at a time.

When you play music, the average power is significantly decreased by the fact that music has a far higher crest factor (or peak to average ratio) than pure sine waves, and that effective speaker impedance is varying because speaker impedance curves are a function of frequency. That means that a power supply that is the limiting constraint on the test bench is no longer nearly as much of a problem.

The crest factor of a pure sine wave is 3 dB, while the minimum crest factor of music and even EFX is 6 dB and can go up to well over 20 dB. The difference between 3 dB and 6 dB is like doubling the power, so as our first estimate, an AVR that puts out 50-80 WPC on the test bench can put out more like 100-160 wpc at the minimum in a real world audio system playing music and movies.
post #89 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by urapnes1 View Post

That calculator says I need 1100 watts to hit 100 db with my setup.

Did you add 5dB to the sensitivity of your speakers to account for room gain?
post #90 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

I'm glad you posted this because I have an amp that sounds better than my receivers too. I'm sick of people stating that I didn't do a double blind, bla, bla bla... Seriously, do they think everyone's opinion is moot unless they setup an extensive test. It's not a huge difference, but I can hear it in certain passages. I'm not imagining it.

I generally don't recommend buying separates because the differences, in most cases, doesn't justify the cost.

Yeah, in normal conditions there should not be a difference between 2 amps, signal goes in, gets bigger, comes out. But I don't think we should take manufacturer ratings as gospel either. I agree that two amps should always be 100% equal across all frequencies at all impedences, etc but I don't believe that this is possible in real life, not at the price points we are talking about. I also believe that manufacturing defects can and do happen which may cause an amp to run at less than perfect operation. If a cap was poorly soldered or a card not fully seated, there would be a reduction in the current being able to be supplied. My point is that words like always, must, every, are troubling because they fail to take into account real world events which can have an effect.
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