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Thinking of upgrading my Paradigm Sub 25.....suggestions?

post #1 of 177
Thread Starter 
Hey guys,

Been a long while since I've had to ask for input or advice on here, mostly because I have been so happy with my Theater Room. Quick specs:

Dedicated 20'x14'x8' Theater Room with two rows of seats
133" 16x9 Da-Lite screen
Sony VPL-HW30ES projector
Anthem MRX700
(2) Klipsch RF-82II's
(1) Klipsch RC-64II
(2) Klipsch RS-52II's
Paradigm Sub 25 (running on 240v)

I have an interested offer for my Paradigm Sub 25 at around $1900 (profit, after shipping and sales fees). I could throw in a maximum of $1000 more, so my total budget for a subwoofer upgrade is around $2900.
In that price range is there anything (or things plural) that will make switching away from my Sub 25 worth it? I will do dual subs if that's the best route.

Been out of the "game" for a while so not sure where to look/what to compare to.
Thanks!


*UPDATE*
Here is what my choices are narrowed down to:
- Paradigm SUB 2 ($3995)
- JTR Captivator S2 ($3000)
- PSA Triax ($2800)
- DUAL Rythmik F25's (~ $2800) or DUAL Rythmik FV15HP's (~$2600)
- Seaton Submersive HP (~ $2450)
- SVS PB13-Ultra ($2000)

Subwoofer(s) will be movie use only
Edited by BigCoolJesus - 9/29/13 at 2:18pm
post #2 of 177
Dual Rythmik FV15HP's will blow your cap backwards for $2900.
post #3 of 177
Dual FV15HPs will give you a lot more deep bass certainly, and better room coverage. The Sub 25 is a good sub though, no doubt, I would love to have one.
post #4 of 177
Thread Starter 
I've been looking at the dual Rythmik FV15HP's....just wasn't sure what else is comparable out there. JTR or Seaton worth looking at in my price range?

Also, I use ARC on the Anthem MRX700, which does WONDERS with room EQ, but it EQ's multiple subs as one, meaning if I have dual subs it will treat them as one during the test tones. How will different distances/dB levels come into play with ARC's EQ if I do duals and they are not equidistant from the MLP?

Thanks!

Also, to be fully clear, the Sub 25 does one heck of a job in my room......but I have been wondering lately with an expanded budget if it is possible to get more bass out of this room without hitting the "law of diminishing returns" ceiling. If I am best just sticking with the Sub 25 and saving some cash for a future purchase (most likely a 4K projector at some point in a year or so), then let me know!
post #5 of 177
You can manually EQ multiple subs separately using something like MiniDSP. Something like ARC can still help, but Audyssey's SubEQ would be better for dual subs. JTR and Seaton subs would get you more output and deeper bass but probably not better sound quality. As for 4k projectors, I don't see any on the horizon aside from Sony's, and the cheapest one is $10k, as far as I know. When you add to that the extremely limited selection of media for 4k, I would say your wait will be longer than a year before that is worth contemplating. The only exception is if you play computer games, those will be able to take advantage of higher resolutions right away, but you will still need to wait for wider HDMI 2.0 adoption for that.
post #6 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

I've been looking at the dual Rythmik FV15HP's....just wasn't sure what else is comparable out there. JTR or Seaton worth looking at in my price range?

Also, I use ARC on the Anthem MRX700, which does WONDERS with room EQ, but it EQ's multiple subs as one, meaning if I have dual subs it will treat them as one during the test tones. How will different distances/dB levels come into play with ARC's EQ if I do duals and they are not equidistant from the MLP?

Thanks!

Also, to be fully clear, the Sub 25 does one heck of a job in my room......but I have been wondering lately with an expanded budget if it is possible to get more bass out of this room without hitting the "law of diminishing returns" ceiling. If I am best just sticking with the Sub 25 and saving some cash for a future purchase (most likely a 4K projector at some point in a year or so), then let me know!

No matter how you slice it, dual FV15HP's will have more output then a single SubM HP and should have the same result compared to a JTR depending on which sub you compare then too.

But just as a point of reference I was looking at the measured numbers on the JTR Orbit Shifter sub posted in its thread and it would take mor then two FV15HP's to equal a single OS from JTR.
post #7 of 177
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

No matter how you slice it, dual FV15HP's will have more output then a single SubM HP and should have the same result compared to a JTR depending on which sub you compare then too.

But just as a point of reference I was looking at the measured numbers on the JTR Orbit Shifter sub posted in its thread and it would take mor then two FV15HP's to equal a single OS from JTR.

Only problem is I don't have room for something like the JTR OS. It's massive!

What and how much of a noticeable gain would two FV15HP's give over my single Sub 25?
post #8 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Only problem is I don't have room for something like the JTR OS. It's massive!

What and how much of a noticeable gain would two FV15HP's give over my single Sub 25?

LOL.... Yes they're huge!

Well not exactly a comparison with your sub but if you go to data-bass.com you can compare a single FV15HP to a LMS Ultra 5400 sub, the LMS is probably one of the most bad a$$ subs around and would have more output then you Sub 25. Just by comparing it with the FV15HP you can see how it keeps up with the LMS 5400.

So if I had to guess I would think that a single FV15HP would most likely have more output over most frequency ranges when compared to the Sub 25. Two would clearly have more output and still cost less then a single Sub 25.
post #9 of 177
To be fair, the LMS Ultra is about more than just output, it performs phenomenally in every single respect. The FV15HP is terrific all around, but the LMS does set the gold standard.
post #10 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

To be fair, the LMS Ultra is about more than just output, it performs phenomenally in every single respect. The FV15HP is terrific all around, but the LMS does set the gold standard.

And that's partly my reasoning shady, the FV15HP does a pretty good job holding its own against the LMS Ultra, so I would have to believe a single FV15HP would out perform a Sub 25.
post #11 of 177
Thread Starter 
What about a single Funk? Judging by the data-bass list, the Funk FW18.0 digs DEEP.

I understand that two subwoofers add more even response and a higher dB level at lower frequency, but does adding a second subwoofer produce deeper bass than what a single version of said subwoofer can do? Like one Rythmik FV15HP plays down to 12.5Hz on data-bass. Would adding a second cause that low end number to drop more, such as 10Hz (to match a single sub like the Funk FW18.0)? Or does it not work like that with dual setups?

Also, to add a wrench into the thought process.....my local Paradigm dealer has always given me hard to pass up deals and about 18 months ago he offered me his showroom SUB 2 for $5200 (Piano Gloss black). When I was in there last month it was still on the showroom floor but I never asked for a price. Thinking of calling him up tomorrow and just seeing what price point he may be at. Is there a maximum price that the SUB 2 would be worthy of consideration compared to some of these other sub(s) I am looking at?

Thanks!
post #12 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

What about a single Funk? Judging by the data-bass list, the Funk FW18.0 digs DEEP.

I understand that two subwoofers add more even response and a higher dB level at lower frequency, but does adding a second subwoofer produce deeper bass than what a single version of said subwoofer can do? Like one Rythmik FV15HP plays down to 12.5Hz on data-bass. Would adding a second cause that low end number to drop more, such as 10Hz (to match a single sub like the Funk FW18.0)? Or does it not work like that with dual setups?

Also, to add a wrench into the thought process.....my local Paradigm dealer has always given me hard to pass up deals and about 18 months ago he offered me his showroom SUB 2 for $5200 (Piano Gloss black). When I was in there last month it was still on the showroom floor but I never asked for a price. Thinking of calling him up tomorrow and just seeing what price point he may be at. Is there a maximum price that the SUB 2 would be worthy of consideration compared to some of these other sub(s) I am looking at?

Thanks!

Honestly even at $5200 I wouldn't take a Sub 2, for $5000 you could get two FW18.0's and have smoother bass and would have more output then a single Sub 2. Not to mention dual subs can do things that a single sub can't.

For $2000 less you could get a PSA Triax http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/prism/products/triax which should have quite a bit more output over a Sub 2.
post #13 of 177
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Honestly even at $5200 I wouldn't take a Sub 2, for $5000 you could get two FW18.0's and have smoother bass and would have more output then a single Sub 2. Not to mention dual subs can do things that a single sub can't.

For $2000 less you could get a PSA Triax http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/prism/products/triax which should have quite a bit more output over a Sub 2.

Whoa.....that thing is wicked looking.

The only thing I see a *short coming* with the PSA is it's very low end doesn't match some of the other subs we have been talking about (like the Funk or SUB 2).....or am I reading it wrong and 80-90dB @ 10Hz is pretty good?
post #14 of 177
It's low end ought to be pretty much the same, maybe a bit more. Three 15"s is more surface area, after all. The thing is, if you want a real 10 Hz sensation, you are going to need a lot of bass, more than any single sub can give you. There is also the matter of distortion, yeah, a sub can output 10 Hz, but how cleanly? The very few subs that can do that, can not do it very cleanly at any worthwhile output levels. I wouldn't worry about 10 Hz unless you intend to have a whole stack of subwoofers.
post #15 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Whoa.....that thing is wicked looking.

The only thing I see a *short coming* with the PSA is it's very low end doesn't match some of the other subs we have been talking about (like the Funk or SUB 2).....or am I reading it wrong and 80-90dB @ 10Hz is pretty good?

The graphs shown on the PSA site are not max output. Hopefully we'll see a data-bass review of the Triax whenever it comes out.
post #16 of 177
Is there a restriction on size? If not, check out the Danley Sound Labs DTS-10.
post #17 of 177
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adupree View Post

Is there a restriction on size? If not, check out the Danley Sound Labs DTS-10.

At this time there is a restriction on size since the room is over 2 years completed and I never factored a "big" sub into the design.

What's the thoughts on mixing subwoofers?
I found a Paradigm SUB 1 that is being sold for a pretty good price, would adding that in with the Sub 25 be acceptable or are they way too different in specs/designs to work good together (even when properly EQ'ed/level trimmed)?

I am also keeping an eye out for used Sub 25's as well to see about adding a second.

All options on the table (size permitting of course)
post #18 of 177
It depends on placement of the subs. If you put one in the front of the room and one in the back it can be done, but generally I prefer not mixing subs due to potential acoustic issues.
post #19 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by adupree View Post

Is there a restriction on size? If not, check out the Danley Sound Labs DTS-10.

The OP has already said that a JTR Orbit Shifter is way to big so I doubt a DTS-10 would work either.
post #20 of 177
The OP wants low and looking at the charts that Sub-2 can do that and the reviews are favorable plus he likes what Paradigm has to offer if it were in my budget I would like to have one.
He could always see if his dealer could loan him one for the test and it may or may not be what he is looking for since he has already said space is limited.
post #21 of 177
Thread Starter 
Well, things got a little more interesting.

Just got off the phone with my Paradigm dealer just to entertain the idea of owning a SUB 2 and he gave him his offer on their floor model SUB 2: $3995 out the door. It's 10/10 condition.

So, yea, the SUB 2 with that price tag is definitely a strong option again now. Still open to ID subs, definitely. Just have a realistic reason to include the SUB 2 in the discussion it seems at this point.
post #22 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Well, things got a little more interesting.

Just got off the phone with my Paradigm dealer just to entertain the idea of owning a SUB 2 and he gave him his offer on their floor model SUB 2: $3995 out the door. It's 10/10 condition.

So, yea, the SUB 2 with that price tag is definitely a strong option again now. Still open to ID subs, definitely. Just have a realistic reason to include the SUB 2 in the discussion it seems at this point.


Good choice for SUB 2 and it is running on 240v and Funk FW18.0 is also running on 240v and OS LFU is also running on 240v - your call smile.gif
post #23 of 177
Is there a reason your not looking at SVS. Also, Funk Audio is great, I'd strongly consider it. Do you have pics of your room/ location for where the sub is being placed?
post #24 of 177
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adupree View Post

Is there a reason your not looking at SVS. Also, Funk Audio is great, I'd strongly consider it. Do you have pics of your room/ location for where the sub is being placed?

I have been looking at SVS and the PB13-Ultra is definitely in consideration, though I wasn't sure if a single PB13-Ultra is adequate or if I need to consider duals?

*
*
post #25 of 177
Thread Starter 
The only problem with dual subwoofers is I have no idea how Anthem ARC handles multiple subs. I know something like Audyssey MultEQ XT32 can EQ two separate subs together while also noting that they are not the same sub (sub 1 and 2), whereas ARC only does one sub EQ so multiple subs are measured together without distinction (sub 1 = sub 2). From past dealings with the Audyssey forums, it has always been said that this means the first sub to "reach" the room correction microphone is the one that's corrected for unless both subs are exactly equidistant from the mic, which is only the case if they are on the L and R sides of the screen......which is not always the ideal spots for them in any given room.

Getting two subs to work together properly has always been my downfall in my old room when I had two Paradigm DSP-3100's. And no, I do not own measuring equipment, nor do I really have the time or energy to get that far into this hobby, unfortunately. The best I was able to do was use PBK's real time measuring process to find the best spot for my Sub 25 in the front of the room (since that is where the 240v is).
post #26 of 177
My god man, $4k for a SUB2 is a steal! Go for it!



post #27 of 177
The Sub 2 for what you've been offered is no doubt an awesome deal. Personally I'd still rather go with a PSA Triax and put the extra money towards something else. I know there hasn't been any third party measurements on the Triax, but I'd be amazing if it didn't outperform the Sub 2.
post #28 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Whoa.....that thing is wicked looking.

The only thing I see a *short coming* with the PSA is it's very low end doesn't match some of the other subs we have been talking about (like the Funk or SUB 2).....or am I reading it wrong and 80-90dB @ 10Hz is pretty good?

I see no reason why a Triax won't have more output down low over either the Sub 2 or Funk Audio sub.
post #29 of 177
Between the Sub 2 and Triax, I would go with the Sub 2, but I am not a fan of either design. At $4k, I would go for a Funk 18.3. That will give you more tangible output down low than either of the others, and I would rather have one great driver than a handful of good ones.
post #30 of 177
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Between the Sub 2 and Triax, I would go with the Sub 2, but I am not a fan of either design. At $4k, I would go for a Funk 18.3. That will give you more tangible output down low than either of the others, and I would rather have one great driver than a handful of good ones.

Well of course you would shady, you usually take anything over PSA....lol
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