or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 46

post #1351 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

My preferred way to check this is with a PC that can output UHD and 4K resolutions. A 3840x2160 PC desktop is very unforgiving if there is an issue with either focus or convergence. The small fonts on a high density desktop are a dead giveaway if something isn't right.

The 600 I had for testing needed a tuning of the blue convergence but it stayed steady once it was warmed up. Moving between my adjustments and the factory settings, it is clear to see the changes on small fonts on the desktop. The focus was very good from edge to edge, corner to corner. If it's not right, it would have been easy to see.

one thing that is worth checking and I didn't mention this before because I needed to see it happen a number of times - see if the focus 'moves' between viewing sessions. in other words, it seems as if I had to make small tweaks to the focus between cycles. At first I thought I was moving the projector since I was running a lot of tests. It is subtle and I could see it being missed unless you are looking at it under a microscope. I kept using the 3840x2160 screens for testing which is why I noticed it. I would be curious if others saw this. My 1000 does not seem to experience this. My HT can get quite cold this time of year so I figured it could have something to do with temperature.

If you don't have a PC, you can still use the built in controls to get a general idea, you just have to press your nose to the screen when making fine adjustments. When it's 'right' you can just barely make out the very fine pixel structure.

Also the UHD / 4K capable lumagens have a native single pixel pattern which is an intense convergence torture test. This is the one that will make the OCD members cry since it's nearly impossible to get it perfect on a 3 panel projector. I still prefer the PC desktop for this purpose.

Thanks for the feedback. I bought a couple of Apple notebooks for the kids last year and they were high end pieces so I assume this will work for the resolution test. I picked up a Lumagen mini that is still in the box, will have to install and work with that too I guess.

Looks like the Chromapure_EyeoneDisplay Pro system will do most of this too plus some other calibration stuff. Unless someone can suggest something better I am ordering the pro 3 system today . Here is the link :
http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm
post #1352 of 2815
You don't need color calibration meters and programs to check focus and convergence. In fact they don't do that. You need to project several test patterns where it will be possible to pick up the pixel grid for focusing. You can put up a cross hatch pattern to test converge. Ideal convergence with no CA would show a perfect grid of white lines. Lines are a combination of red, green, and blue lines from the three respective panels. If not converged, and usually they aren't perfectly converged, you will see two or more lines offset. I just don't have time to make a long post here. Do a bit of research above CA, causing convergence looking errors and due mostly to using lens offset.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/11/14 at 7:39am
post #1353 of 2815
I told roxiedog13 it was eyeballs only in post 1347. Perhaps he missed it.

On the other hand, if you want to get fancy - http://www.kleininstruments.com/gauges/convergence-gauge/
Edited by buzzard767 - 1/11/14 at 8:35am
post #1354 of 2815
Very funny. A tool every hobbyist should have. And imagine its calibration is traceable to NIST as well. No more it looks like one half pixel. Maybe Spectracal will start selling it. WARNING If you have a one chip projector do not buy this otherwise extremely valuable indispensable measuring device. LOL about a real instrument.
post #1355 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

Thanks for the feedback. I bought a couple of Apple notebooks for the kids last year and they were high end pieces so I assume this will work for the resolution test. I picked up a Lumagen mini that is still in the box, will have to install and work with that too I guess.

Looks like the Chromapure_EyeoneDisplay Pro system will do most of this too plus some other calibration stuff. Unless someone can suggest something better I am ordering the pro 3 system today . Here is the link :
http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm

The D3 Pro + CP + mini 3D is a great kit but it won't help with identifying the convergence and focus. The single pixel patterns on the mini 3D will be in 1080P and will be scaled so you can't use these. The 2041 does have the UHD version of this pattern.

ideally if that apple can handle UHD 3840x2160 output, this will help a lot.

After 100 hours on the 600 I had here for testing, gamma shifted a bit and it wasn't possible to get it accurate with the built in controls. Also, 5-25 IRE had a strong red push with double digit dE's, it wasn't too noticeable unless you know what to look for but the mini 3D + CP can easily fix this.

I don't see the real value in the built in calibration tools. these errors weren't enough to do anything about it so i'm not sure 'how bad' it has to be before these built in tools will do anything noticeable.
post #1356 of 2815
I don't know why you couldn't use a scaled pattern for convergence. For focusing I understand but even then you could use the internal focus pattern which I don't think is scaled. There are enough lines for example on the zoom pattern to judge focus across the screen by attempting to see the pixel construction of the lines.. You do need a white line pattern for convergence testing. And really if you have to press your nose against the screen to get the focus spot on, what difference does getting it spot on considering normal viewing distances?

The cheaper lens on the 500/600 with its plastic outer element is simply not going to give one the focus and minimal CA from the world class lens on the 1000ES. Glass is far more temperature stable than glass and those ED elements (very low dispersion even compared to normal lens glass make a big difference in CA and sharpness. It doesn't mean the 500/600 lens isn't good, but I suspect it isn't great.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/11/14 at 9:08am
post #1357 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I don't know why you couldn't use a scaled pattern for convergence. For focusing I understand but even then you could use the internal focus pattern which I don't think is scaled. There are enough lines for example on the zoom pattern to judge focus across the screen by attempting to see the pixel construction of the lines.. You do need a white line pattern for convergence testing. And really if you have to press your nose against the screen to get the focus spot on, what difference does getting it spot on considering normal viewing distances?

The cheaper lens on the 500/600 with its plastic outer element is simply not going to give one the focus and minimal CA from the world class lens on the 1000ES. Glass is far more temperature stable than glass and those ED elements (very low dispersion even compared to normal lens glass make a big difference in CA and sharpness. It doesn't mean the 500/600 lens isn't good, but I suspect it isn't great.




This , I agree with Mark smile.gif - I think some of you exaggerate the precision of convergent adjustment - if you can not see convergent error from approx. 1 meter (3 feet ) interval, after adjustment , there is no reason to spend more time on it ( especially if it's the blue one) IMO, it will never be a visible degradation of image sharpness / quality at all " normal " sit / look distances.

This does not mean that you should not adjust the best possible way, clearly you have to , but once that is done, then forget it and move on , and no, it's not a bug that convergence is not necessarily perfect at startup and this applies of 500,600 and 1000 / 1100.

The same goes much along the way also for focus adjustment , they are rarely perfect (even on 1000/1100es model - IMO) , as they always will have some tolerances and temperature variations / screen angles / distances and for so long that they are not visible to the naked eye at one meter , it will never be a problem IMO Again
.
So if we use our ( "normal" ) vision and common sense , it should not be that difficult to adjust both for a good level in 5-10 min after the projector has been running a 1/2 - 1 hour (of course under the assumption that the nothing wrong with the projector wink.gif )

Personally I use the 1080P one pixel on/off test pattern in the AVSHD disc and the internal @ pattern in the projector ( UHD resolution ? ) to adjust focus.

My to cent tongue.gif


dj
post #1358 of 2815
mark you asked me the other day how I thought the 600 and 1000 compared to one an other. With both projectors at screen center, the lenses look remarkably similar when observing the high density PC 3840x2160 PC desktop which I believe is an excellent test of lens performance. it's not easy to sharply render 8 point fonts to the corners of a 142" 16:9 which this 600 did just as well as the 1000. There may have been a bit more CA vs. the 1000 but I had to look for it in a number of UHD patterns I purchased from Burosh.

I'm sure this is going to be different with a large offset but I don't have enough room above the screen for this kind of test. so what I would say is, I doubt anyone here would be able to see a noticeable difference in lens performance if both projectors were at screen center sitting 1.25 sw from the 142". before you say it's a restriction of the HP screen, I have several neutral gain screen samples I used for this test as well. This lens, at least with my particular setup, exceeded my expectations considering how much more expensive the 1000 lens must cost in comparison.

SOWK - I don't trust this rack to hold the 1000, specifically the board. it's cheap and thin. I'm going to take it depot or lowes and get a solid piece of wood cut with the exact dimensions. even the JVC's cause it to bow a bit in the center.

sony-sony-2.jpg
post #1359 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

mark you asked me the other day how I thought the 600 and 1000 compared to one an other. With both projectors at screen center, the lenses look remarkably similar when observing the high density PC 3840x2160 PC desktop which I believe is an excellent test of lens performance. it's not easy to sharply render 8 point fonts to the corners of a 142" 16:9 which this 600 did just as well as the 1000. There may have been a bit more CA vs. the 1000 but I had to look for it in a number of UHD patterns I purchased from Burosh.

I'm sure this is going to be different with a large offset but I don't have enough room above the screen for this kind of test. so what I would say is, I doubt anyone here would be able to see a noticeable difference in lens performance if both projectors were at screen center sitting 1.25 sw from the 142". before you say it's a restriction of the HP screen, I have several neutral gain screen samples I used for this test as well. This lens, at least with my particular setup, exceeded my expectations considering how much more expensive the 1000 lens must cost in comparison.

SOWK - I don't trust this rack to hold the 1000, specifically the board. it's cheap and thin. I'm going to take it depot or lowes and get a solid piece of wood cut with the exact dimensions. even the JVC's cause it to bow a bit in the center.




Thanks Z10K rolleyes.gif I can now Wonder why I did spend all that Money biggrin.gifwink.gif

I am sure the CA is there a lot more on the 500/600 then on the 1000 ( wich have none, I can see ) - it HAS to have more smile.gif

What about the contrast, Black level and the intra contrast - can you see at difference there ? ( if you cant - then lie and say you can, for my sake please biggrin.gif )

And for all you cheap (wink.gif) Lucky projector owners - congratulation with your very fine 500/600 projector - at least I have the bragging rights redface.gif


dj
post #1360 of 2815
Well......I just finished selling my soul guys. Largest check I have ever written. Now the wait begins for my projector to arrive biggrin.gif

zombie, when you have time would you be able to give me some input on the best out of box settings for both 2D and 3D? Also, what is your opinion on Film Mode On vs. Off?
Any of your tips are MUCH appreciated. You rock!

Thanks guys!
post #1361 of 2815
Yes zombie, I'd really be interested in the general differences in pq between the 600 and 1000. Besides sharpness, how are brightness, contrast, and general pq? Like mark asked, if the vw1000 is 100, what would the 600 score?
post #1362 of 2815
i'll post some info soon in the shootout thread.
post #1363 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

After 100 hours on the 600 I had here for testing, gamma shifted a bit and it wasn't possible to get it accurate with the built in controls. Also, 5-25 IRE had a strong red push with double digit dE's, it wasn't too noticeable unless you know what to look for but the mini 3D + CP can easily fix this.

I don't see the real value in the built in calibration tools. these errors weren't enough to do anything about it so i'm not sure 'how bad' it has to be before these built in tools will do anything noticeable.

On previous year's models there was a PC software package called "Image Director" that allowed creation of custom gamma ramps. You would upload them to the projector via serial port.

It would allow you to correct the issues you mentioned without using an external video processor.
post #1364 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post

On previous year's models there was a PC software package called "Image Director" that allowed creation of custom gamma ramps. You would upload them to the projector via serial port.

It would allow you to correct the issues you mentioned without using an external video processor.

when I said built in controls, I meant what is available in the menu system via the remote control. it would be nice if they had something similar to what JVC had in the previous models, a quick method to adjust individual gamma points.
post #1365 of 2815
Not sure where the best place to ask this but thought I would start here.

Had anyone successfully added an external USB hard drive to the Sony Puck for more storage. I have downloaded a bunch of movies and I'm right at using up the full 2tb.

Not sure what happens if I go over the available amount. Not sure if it will ask me what I want removed or if it's more a first in/ first out system.
post #1366 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitetrash66 View Post

Yes zombie, I'd really be interested in the general differences in pq between the 600 and 1000. Besides sharpness, how are brightness, contrast, and general pq? Like mark asked, if the vw1000 is 100, what would the 600 score?

I have a score picked and it's **% .wink.gif Wouldn't want to influence Zombie in any way, will reveal what I think after he makes his remarks first . biggrin.gif
post #1367 of 2815
Zombie is pretty much influence proof. I haven't seen a 500/600 yet but I am going to guess about 88.27. The problem with assigning a value, is we do not all agree on what weighting factors to assign to various qualities and parameters and since the rating is otherwise subjective if one owns one machine over the other this could skew the delta in the direction of the one chosen.
post #1368 of 2815
My VW600ES/X is out for delivery. I will get to see it in my room soon. smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #1369 of 2815
Time for a cheap shot. Yuk yuk. No. I just cant do it. I'll send you a PM.
post #1370 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

My VW600ES/X is out for delivery. I will get to see it in my room soon. smile.gif

X= the unknown factor confused.gif me thinks it = calibrated. Now if that were XX or XXX I would be thinking something else, probably what Mark is holding out on maybe?
post #1371 of 2815
No. Not at all. Don't read anything into my private Yuk Yuk cheap shot with Mike. His unit is the same as everyone elses.
post #1372 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

X= the unknown factor confused.gif me thinks it = calibrated. Now if that were XX or XXX I would be thinking something else, probably what Mark is holding out on maybe?

X is the bundle with the 4k server and tablet
post #1373 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

My VW600ES/X is out for delivery. I will get to see it in my room soon. smile.gif

I am waiting near my phone for my dealer to call and tell me ETA of delivery. Hopefully his distributor has it in stock to ship out right away!

Also, huge apology I wasn't able to order from you, Mike. You guys have excellent service and the best prices, but unfortunately for this purchase I needed to use some existing financing through Sony to front the money for the time being. Patience is NOT my strong suit.
post #1374 of 2815
When I purchased mine, my dealer said that short of having the 1000 and 600 side by side, in the same room on the same screen, it would be very difficult to articulate the differences. I saw the 1000 a month ago in the dealer showroom on a much larger but slightly higher gain screen than what I have and I'll take the image I have with no complaints. NONE. I still think it's a ridiculous amount of money to spend for a big TV but then again, the original 42 inch flat screen was $20,000 !!! And easily, improvement per dollar (outside of my last speaker upgrade), the best improvement for the dollar I have had since I did my original theater.

Thank you Sony !!!
post #1375 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post

X is the bundle with the 4k server and tablet

Oh well, X is now known the fun is over. Canadians and Europeans do not have the X factor biggrin.gif
post #1376 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

My preferred way to check this is with a PC that can output UHD and 4K resolutions. A 3840x2160 PC desktop is very unforgiving if there is an issue with either focus or convergence.

Z, do you (or anyone else) have or ever tried DispalyMate on a 4K capable computer?

I have an old version, 1.2, ©1990-1999, that does 1920 x 1080. Never tried using the gray scale and color patterns on the video projector because I never spent the time learning how to get the computer to output 16-235, 4:2:0.
post #1377 of 2815
A heads up... I was testing with my Spears and Munsil BD last night and my VW500ES failed the Chroma multiburst pattern when sent a 4:2:2 signal. 4:4:4 works fine however.
post #1378 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canary_Jules View Post

A heads up... I was testing with my Spears and Munsil BD last night and my VW500ES failed the Chroma multiburst pattern when sent a 4:2:2 signal. 4:4:4 works fine however.

For the non technical persons in the group and I know there are some, please advise what this means?
post #1379 of 2815
Connected up the server this morning and watched a little bit of Spiderman. Image is very good. Tablet is easy to use. Once downloaded, just select and play. Now I am playing musical chairs with projectors. Trying to decide what to put where. The 600 is in dedicated room. The JVC went to the family room. Trying to decide if I want to keep the Planar also in dedicated room or put the Marantz in there.
Reply
Reply
post #1380 of 2815
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Connected up the server this morning and watched a little bit of Spiderman. Image is very good. Tablet is easy to use. Once downloaded, just select and play.

I did the same. Could not figure out how to stop the tablet from going to sleep so quickly. Any ideas?

What I have decided is that upscaled well done Blu Rays (using anamorphic lens) look almost as good as native 4K. Spiderman does exceed upscale as do some of the nature videos. Coming from a JVC RS55, the improvements of an upscaled Upscaled Blu ray far exceeds the improvement of native 4K over upscaled Blu ray. What an awesome projector.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP › Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread