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Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 58

post #1711 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

I agree 100%. When I'm watching good material 4K, I don't worry at all about any setting because the image looks so good that I don't bother.
When I watch 4K material, Info in menu shows the resolution in pixels but when I watch Blue Ray, in info it only says 1080P/24 ( ofcourse it do , because most bluray films is 1920x1080P 24 and that is what the BRmaschine sends to the projector) I'm worried about it not being up scaled because I know that everything this projector shows has to be up scaled. I believe Info in Menu shows original material resolution and not up converted resolution.


Agree , the projctors info menu shows the input signal resolution into the projector ( whether it is scaled - up / down or not - before it arrive into the projector )


when you see "4K" ( UHD ) materiel from the server, dosnt it then show 3840x2160P in the projector info menu ?


dj
post #1712 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Well , Seegs108 - here, I dont agree with you smile.gif

( personally Im not that impressed with the old the "24 frame per second" look, limited by the nearly 100-year-old technique wink.gif )

I personally cant stand to look at especially pans that "picks/ jumps / moves" and definitely does not look like movements in the real world (yes, I know that this is how it - mostly - is filmed and the original "film look"), but for me, it often moves me more "out of the film", mostly over the very rare picture calculation errors which these projectore doing in their "low" setting - so of course it is a personal matter of taste, what is preferred!

( and yes I like HFR - just not the movies,who is made in it for now biggrin.gif )

If we keep on sticking to the old technics - why do we then want other Things to get "better" then in the movie theater?

Like REC2020 ( bigger colorspace then DCI )
higher color resolution ( 12-16 bit )
Higher contrast then movietheater projectors confused.gifwink.gif
higher framerates ( like 48, 60, 72 or even 120 )

IMO the goal is to get it to look so realistic as posible, so I forget it is a movie I look at - and being fooled to believe that I am in the film


dj

Then why calibrate to Rec 709? If you don't want the motion to match what the director/DP intended you to see then why calibrate the color to get as close as possible to the master as the BD spec allows?
post #1713 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Agree , the projctors info menu shows the input signal resolution into the projector ( whether it is scaled - up / down or not - before it arrive into the projector )


when you see "4K" ( UHD ) materiel from the server, dosnt it then show 3840x2160P in the projector info menu ?


dj

Yes it does.
post #1714 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

More impressions on projector upscale quality: I recently watched The Dark Knight. I have seen this movie many many times because I used it for sound testing (It is good for testing low bass). I am very familiar with how this movie looked on 95ES. On 600ES, it looks like 20 times better. I can't put a number to it bit it was awesome. This projector does a lot of noise out of image. Watching on 95ES, there are scenes that shows a lot of image noise. 600ES does a hell of a job to reduce it. Also image quality is very very nice. Dark night scenes looked great.

One thing I noticed is that using Aspect of 2.35 Zoom vs Normal and zooming to fit on 2.35 screen has different results in image quality. Using Normal aspect has much better results. I noticed image noise reducing significantly.

This is such great news and I am super psyched that you are enjoying this wonderful machine..

Thank you

Craig
post #1715 of 2799
Today I sold my previous screen. The buyer came to pick up and wanted to see 4K projector as well. He currently owns Epson 5030 and when I showed him LORT and some clips of 4K server, he was blown away. When I showed him Inside Saturn Ring without saying anything, first thing he said after WOW was about how great black looked. Showing Total Recall and showing off how amazing the image looked, he was like ready to go and buy one :-)

His comments: The image is nice and bright but this brightness didn't hinder the colors and everything look that natural and real.
post #1716 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post


Then why calibrate to Rec 709? If you don't want the motion to match what the director/DP intended you to see then why calibrate the color to get as close as possible to the master as the BD spec allows?

 

That's the question you have to ask yourself... Do you prefer the Director's version (for the sake of fidelity even if you don't like it), or would you prefer to make adjustments to it ?

 

As for calibration, it's always best to start there... but then again if for some reason you don't like something perfectly calibrated for whatever reason (maybe your eyes don't perceive light and colors the same way, some people are more motion sensitive than others) by all means, adjust it so the result is best for your taste and don't be mind locked as doing everything as per theoretical best standards...

 

This is how I see it, perfect calibration is and director's choice are the reference. You might not like it, then it's up to you to make few tweaks, and todays's tech allows you to do so.

Some people will add more or less salt on their steak and even add sauce to it. Do you question how the cook wanted you to eat your steak ?

post #1717 of 2799
Just ordered the vw600es from someone here on the forum. I need a new Blu-ray player though. Any recommendations to pair with this projector?
post #1718 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Those refresh numbers don't really matter for motion resolution performance. Those numbers simply state the pulldown method being used. What really matters is the inherent native refresh rate of the panels. For instance, single chip DLP's only frame double 24p material and display it at 48hz and yet motion on DLP is still the best among digital front projectors. The reasoning behind this has to do with how fast the panel can "reset" itself to display something new. DLPs are roughly 3000 times faster at doing this than current LCD and LCoS chips.

Motionflow should be turned off for 2D content so that the proper film cadence, the "24 frame per second" look, can be achieved. For 3D that's debatable. I personally leave all motion enhancing features turned off but some like it on for 3D and sports. There is no optimal setting. It's really a matter of taste and what you like best.

So you mean the refreshrate of the DLP panel is 3000 times faster than LCOS?? I dont think so, I know DLP has better motionresolution than LCOS, but your numbers are wrong.
post #1719 of 2799
No, that is not what I mean. The ability for each mirror to go from full on to full off ( I believe the term is grey to grey response time) is on orders of magnitude faster than LCD or LCoS. Sony says their current generation LCoS chips are 2 milliseconds grey to grey. DLP is 16 microseconds. DLPs faster response time is what accounts for it's exceptional motion handling ability. I did read 3000 somewhere but that was probably comparing it to a very old LCD panel. Either way its still hundreds of times faster (125 to be exact) than Sony's LCoS which is touted to be the best for motion of the non-DLP projectors.

Many current budget LCD monitors are something like 12+ milliseconds which would make DLP 750+ times faster. With low fps material like bluray we don't need crazy high response times to get motion to look proper so something like Sony's LCoS panels would be sufficient for all but the pickiest. As the content increases in frames per second the difference in response time of display types becomes more important and more obvious.

Also, this is why DLP does so well with 3D. It can reset it's mirrors so quickly in comparison to LCDs or LCoS panels that there are no ghosting artifacts created.
Edited by Seegs108 - 1/27/14 at 1:49am
post #1720 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by abominable1 View Post

Just ordered the vw600es from someone here on the forum. I need a new Blu-ray player though. Any recommendations to pair with this projector?
Oppo 103
post #1721 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soccerdude View Post

Oppo 103

I see the difference between the 105/103 may be negligible? The 103 is much less expensive so it does seem more attractive in terms of price as well. Thanks.
post #1722 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

No, that is not what I mean. The ability for each mirror to go from full on to full off ( I believe the term is grey to grey response time) is on orders of magnitude faster than LCD or LCoS. Sony says their current generation LCoS chips are 2 milliseconds grey to grey. DLP is 16 microseconds. DLPs faster response time is what accounts for it's exceptional motion handling ability. I did read 3000 somewhere but that was probably comparing it to a very old LCD panel. Either way its still hundreds of times faster (125 to be exact) than Sony's LCoS which is touted to be the best for motion of the non-DLP projectors.

Many current budget LCD monitors are something like 12+ milliseconds which would make DLP 750+ times faster. With low fps material like bluray we don't need crazy high response times to get motion to look proper so something like Sony's LCoS panels would be sufficient for all but the pickiest. As the content increases in frames per second the difference in response time of display types becomes more important and more obvious.

Also, this is why DLP does so well with 3D. It can reset it's mirrors so quickly in comparison to LCDs or LCoS panels that there are no ghosting artifacts created.

Ok, but still far from 3000 even compared with budget LCD monitors!smile.gif And I think this is called responsetime??

Comparing a DLP and a SXRD with filmcontent I dont think the motionresolution difference is very obvious, but if you take a motionresolution testimage the difference is quite big. And to correct you on one more thing, the best for motionresolution testimages of the non DLP´s are not SXRD, but CRT and I think they are even vetter than DLP?
post #1723 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsplay99 View Post

Here is the link:

http://www.sony.com/SCA/company-news/press-releases/sony-electronics/2014/its-play-time-for-sony-at-ces-2014.shtml


Looks like it will have streaming support as well:

from the press release:

"Sony is also developing its next-generation 4K Media Player with expanded codec support (AVC, HEVC and XAVC-S) to support streaming of 4K content, as well as storage and playback of footage shot with Sony 4K Handycam® camcorders. "

I also spoke to the guys at the sony store and they confirmed this. I don't know if a simple software update to the current media player is going to make it streaming?? Wish I knew this and then would just buy the current one......but knowing sony who required owners of the VPL-1000 to spend an additional $2500 to get a new board to be compatible with the media player....I would not be surprised that the current player is outdated with the new one....

The press release said Sony is developing a new server. That should not be read as meaning its around the corner. That means probably it will be shown partially working at Cedia. They are still updating the current server trying to work bugs out. I am sure the coming server will be it and will last an eternity meriting an investment. You did hear about the trade in deal for owners of what will be the old sever in about a year? If you did, you will have to be silenced for at least a year becaquse the cost of the new one is unknown since it is little more than a block of wood model at this point. smile.gif
post #1724 of 2799
I have long maintained that the best results on the Sony's are obtained using the normal aspect for 16/9 source frrame material regardless of the aspect on that 16/9 source frame.

The Sony scaling leaves a lot to be desired. It works best when it just multiplies by two taking 1920 x 1080 to 3840 x 2160 and that's why I pounded on BCJ just to set up using normal aspect on the Sony and the 1.78 edge markers. Zoom for a 2.35 screen but do not go to the Sony abnormal 2.35 aspect. It scales to fill the full panel and it degrades the image by doing so. The Sony scaler just can't handle it.


I know, people will chime in (Hi Bill) and claim somehow they do it and the image is just as good or better but I suggest careful observation with a slow breathing rate might lead to a more scientific and reliable observation. I do believe the slightly larger or brighter image available for the higher Sony aspect (those extra pixels0 may swamp the otherwisw reliable picture quality neurons and Its not unwatcheable or even bad, but it is nowhere as good as what one can achieve using just normal aspect on the Sony.
post #1725 of 2799

Just finishing up theater and planning on hanging VPL600 this week.  I have a Chief mount and will be installed central to screen (from horizontal) and about 7" below the top of the screen (110" diagonal Firehawk G4).  Projector lens 12' 2" from screen.  When aligning the projector should it be directed to the center of the screen using the mount or should it be aligned parrallel to the screen and use lens shift to lower the center of the projected image to the center of the screen?  Will tilting the projector downward to align with the center of the screen using the mount distort the image?

post #1726 of 2799
Now when newbies talking about the Sony scaling and how great it is, they are talking about 2x scaling in each direction and how great blurays look upscaled to 3840 x 2160. Ditto for DVDs upscaled from 480i to 3840 x 2160. Nice even multipliers. Looks good. But these are not observations on the actually quality of the even order multiplier scaling. It still rings to help give the appearance of it being sharp. Etc Etc. Nice to watch. But it could be better.
Edited by mark haflich - 1/27/14 at 1:20pm
post #1727 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsound View Post

Just finishing up theater and planning on hanging VPL600 this week.  I have a Chief mount and will be installed central to screen (from horizontal) and about 7" below the top of the screen (110" diagonal Firehawk G4).  Projector lens 12' 2" from screen.  When aligning the projector should it be directed to the center of the screen using the mount or should it be aligned parrallel to the screen and use lens shift to lower the center of the projected image to the center of the screen?  Will tilting the projector downward to align with the center of the screen using the mount distort the image?


Welcome. This question has been discovered over and over and over on the forum and using the reasearch function will find long discussions and answers. Rather than filling up this thread with severly repetitive discussions. I will be very brief. Please just give me a call and I woud be happy to help you here. It is not easy of intuitive the first time you try it. smile.gif

You never EVER tilt. You must make the lens parallel to the screen both up and down and left to right You can use lens shift to center up and down and left to right. The idea is to get a perfect rectangle using say the zoom test screen. Just zoom a little smaller than your screen and go at it. Top and bottom edges should MEASURE equal in length and the side edges likewise with no tilt, they should parallel the screeb side edges and MEASURE the same duistance from the sides top and bottom. Recenter using lens shift but get every a perfect rectangle mimicking the scren edges.
post #1728 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsound View Post

Just finishing up theater and planning on hanging VPL600 this week.  I have a Chief mount and will be installed central to screen (from horizontal) and about 7" below the top of the screen (110" diagonal Firehawk G4).  Projector lens 12' 2" from screen.  When aligning the projector should it be directed to the center of the screen using the mount or should it be aligned parrallel to the screen and use lens shift to lower the center of the projected image to the center of the screen?  Will tilting the projector downward to align with the center of the screen using the mount distort the image?

You mount the projector so that the lens is parallel with the screen. In other words mount the projector horizontally level if the screen is vertically level. Use lens shift to lower the image onto the screen. What size and aspect ratio screen do you have?
Reply
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post #1729 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Today I sold my previous screen. The buyer came to pick up and wanted to see 4K projector as well. He currently owns Epson 5030 and when I showed him LORT and some clips of 4K server, he was blown away. When I showed him Inside Saturn Ring without saying anything, first thing he said after WOW was about how great black looked. Showing Total Recall and showing off how amazing the image looked, he was like ready to go and buy one :-)

His comments: The image is nice and bright but this brightness didn't hinder the colors and everything look that natural and real.

Well I sure hope a $15,000 projector would look better than a $2,500 one! wink.gif
post #1730 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Then why calibrate to Rec 709? If you don't want the motion to match what the director/DP intended you to see then why calibrate the color to get as close as possible to the master as the BD spec allows?


Because thats ( hopfully/ probely) the closest you can come to "correct" / natural / real life color within blurays color boundaries.

If there was a more natural, real life looking colorspace available - I sure would calibrate to that ( for example REC2020, - if that was posible, but is not - , because it is a lot closere to what we can and do see in real life )


dfj
post #1731 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by abominable1 View Post

Just ordered the vw600es from someone here on the forum. I need a new Blu-ray player though. Any recommendations to pair with this projector?



If you can afford it and willing to spend that amount smile.gif - I would buy the Oppo 103D and if you are a audiophil too, go for the coming (?) 105D


dj


BTW. the difference between 103 and 105 is the audio quality ( better converters etc. ) , the video part is AFAIK at the same level, so if you not a ekstrem audiophil, save the Money. And the D in 103D is the version with a Darbee in the player ( if you dont have one in advance, or dont want one at all ofcourse ).
Edited by d.j. - 1/27/14 at 8:55am
post #1732 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

No, that is not what I mean. The ability for each mirror to go from full on to full off ( I believe the term is grey to grey response time) is on orders of magnitude faster than LCD or LCoS. Sony says their current generation LCoS chips are 2 milliseconds grey to grey. DLP is 16 microseconds. DLPs faster response time is what accounts for it's exceptional motion handling ability. I did read 3000 somewhere but that was probably comparing it to a very old LCD panel. Either way its still hundreds of times faster (125 to be exact) than Sony's LCoS which is touted to be the best for motion of the non-DLP projectors.

Many current budget LCD monitors are something like 12+ milliseconds which would make DLP 750+ times faster. With low fps material like bluray we don't need crazy high response times to get motion to look proper so something like Sony's LCoS panels would be sufficient for all but the pickiest. As the content increases in frames per second the difference in response time of display types becomes more important and more obvious.

Also, this is why DLP does so well with 3D. It can reset it's mirrors so quickly in comparison to LCDs or LCoS panels that there are no ghosting artifacts created.



Just for info, its two different ways to measure switch time/ response time :

- the full on to full off is measuring the time it takes the mirror from off ( Black) to on ( White ) and back ( a full cyklus ) and is a measuring way to get faster / smaller responstime number ( smile.gif ) , because its easyer to just give the mirror a high peak voltage and control this kind off the movement - full off/full on.

Where the " grey to grey response time" measuring way is when measure the mirror from grey state ( not in the extreme / easy position ) and back again to grey, again a full cyklus, which is a lot harder to control / takes longere time - so that number will typical be higher number / slower response time ( but IMO a more " real" way to measure the response time ).

dj
Edited by d.j. - 1/31/14 at 10:27am
post #1733 of 2799
Alright.....is the Darbee worth it guys?

I have to admit, I first thought it was "rubish" when it was first released and nothing more than anothe component to waste money on (along the lines of power conditioners and high-end speaker wire). But I keep seeing more and more users putting it in their setup and almost no backlash associated with using a Darbee like one would get for using other gimicky add-ons.

Would it really add to the overall picture quality of the 600ES? How?

Thanks
post #1734 of 2799
Quote:
If you can afford it and willing to spend that amount smile.gif - I would buy the Oppo 103D and if you are a audiophil too, go for the coming (?) 105D


dj


BTW. the difference between 103 and 105 is the audio quality ( better converters etc. ) , the video part is AFAIK at the same level, so if you not a ekstrem audiophil,

Can you please explain how 105 is better in sound? I use PS3 to play blue ray. How 105 is better than PS3 when it comes to sound quality?
post #1735 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Alright.....is the Darbee worth it guys?

I have to admit, I first thought it was "rubish" when it was first released and nothing more than anothe component to waste money on (along the lines of power conditioners and high-end speaker wire). But I keep seeing more and more users putting it in their setup and almost no backlash associated with using a Darbee like one would get for using other gimicky add-ons.

Would it really add to the overall picture quality of the 600ES? How?

Thanks

Oh yes. It has this great feature of On/Off smile.gif that let's you see the difference right away. It does bring a difference. Its not a day and night but there is difference. You get to see more details. I also think that it doesn't add image noise but I"m still playing with it to notice if it does. But it can make existing image noise more obvious (IMO).
Edited by SherazNJ - 1/27/14 at 11:00am
post #1736 of 2799
The better sound of the 105 vs the 103 is for the ANALOG outputs only. It has nothing to do with the HDMI output (which is what you use with a PS3). The 105 is designed for those that want the best possible analog audio outputs. Use the 103 if you only connect via HDMI.
post #1737 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View PostCan you please explain how 105 is better in sound? I use PS3 to play blue ray. How 105 is better than PS3 when it comes to sound quality?

Unless you use analog, stick to the 103D

post #1738 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Unless you use analog, stick to the 103D
I don't have 103D. I have ps3. I had a discussion with some members here and the conclusion was that its not necessary to go to 103 from PS3 as far as video quality is concern. Would it make a NOTICEABLE difference if one goes from ps3 to 103D?
post #1739 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

I don't have 103D. I have ps3. I had a discussion with some members here and the conclusion was that its not necessary to go to 103 from PS3 as far as video quality is concern. Would it make a NOTICEABLE difference if one goes from ps3 to 103D?

I have the Oppo 103D and ps4. I think my Oppo is the best piece of equipment I have. I'm allowed to have blu ray quality with two extra inputs. My hdtv is 1080p and I can use my blu ray settings to further enhance the quality. The Oppo takes PQ to another level than going straight through my avr. Going straight to the source is always better

Also, with the 4K Sonys, you can upscale everything to 4K
Edited by blee0120 - 1/27/14 at 11:35am
post #1740 of 2799
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View PostI don't have 103D. I have ps3. I had a discussion with some members here and the conclusion was that its not necessary to go to 103 from PS3 as far as video quality is concern. Would it make a NOTICEABLE difference if one goes from ps3 to 103D?

Yes the 103D is spectacular!

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