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Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 62

post #1831 of 2814
The chips can't handle anything close to what would be needed. The decision to leave it out as well as many other features left out with 4K in because of the cost of the processing hardware. Motion processing is basically frame interpolation. At UHD, generating a new 8 million plus pixel frame from two adjacent 8 million plus pixel frame takes time and tremendous chip capacity. And I am simplifying things. Buffering.


You want to bitch into the wind? smile.gif You have a better chance of winning the power ball lottery even if you don't buy a ticket,

I have a 4k processor that will output 4K only up to 30 and that sucks considering most everything I watch is 60 frames in and the processor if I use it for 60 in, which I don't, would drop every other frame out. talk about no motion flow, that is like anti motion flow, I just let the processor feed everything 1080p 60 and below out to the Sony at 1080p 60 except for movies at 24 fps..
post #1832 of 2814
How do I get 4096 x 2160@60 from a PC to the projector?

The current video cards only seem to support 24 frames per second through HDMI 1.4. Some do the resolution over display port, but the display port to HDMI adapters seem to be limited to 1080p.
post #1833 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

The chips can't handle anything close to what would be needed. The decision to leave it out as well as many other features left out with 4K in because of the cost of the processing hardware. Motion processing is basically frame interpolation. At UHD, generating a new 8 million plus pixel frame from two adjacent 8 million plus pixel frame takes time and tremendous chip capacity. And I am simplifying things. Buffering.


You want to bitch into the wind? smile.gif You have a better chance of winning the power ball lottery even if you don't buy a ticket,

I have a 4k processor that will output 4K only up to 30 and that sucks considering most everything I watch is 60 frames in and the processor if I use it for 60 in, which I don't, would drop every other frame out. talk about no motion flow, that is like anti motion flow, I just let the processor feed everything 1080p 60 and below out to the Sony at 1080p 60 except for movies at 24 fps..

Well standard HD motion flow is 240hz , right? So at 8 times the resolution you should have up to 30 extra frames. And  the RC turned off would resolve in a couple of more frames maybe... Just playing around...

post #1834 of 2814
Motion is more than just flashing the same frames faster. You have 60 source frames. Motion flow means creating additional frames to insert between the source frames. These frames are created by interpolation between the source frames.
post #1835 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Why would one need a hide button? I'm just curious - I've never had a need for one.

A hide button is an absolute must if one has a curtain with footlights, especially if you are into a professional style of presentation.

I cue up my movie and pause it. The HIDE is in place so it doesn't show on the curtain. When everyone is seated I dim the ceiling lights, then the wall lights. As I hit "start show" on my ipad simultaneously the curtain opens, the curtain lights dim and the HIDE opens up. No different to what I once did as a cinema projectionist manually.

All 35MM projectors have a HIDE, it is called the douser. wink.gif

Look at my HT below my signature, you will see the cinema and understand why I need a HIDE button on all my projectors. Without it I cant do the same type of presentations I did for more than 35+ years in the cinemas I worked in.
post #1836 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by wagnerc View Post

How do I get 4096 x 2160@60 from a PC to the projector?

The current video cards only seem to support 24 frames per second through HDMI 1.4. Some do the resolution over display port, but the display port to HDMI adapters seem to be limited to 1080p.

2160p at 60hz is only handled at YCC 420. You need HDMI 2.0 for this, as HDMI 1.4 only handles YCC 422.

Unfortunately there is no graphics adaptor with HDMI 2.0 yet. Should arrive Q2 or Q3, when the HDMI 2.0 chipsets become available in quantity.
post #1837 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Motion is more than just flashing the same frames faster. You have 60 source frames. Motion flow means creating additional frames to insert between the source frames. These frames are created by interpolation between the source frames.

I am very aware of th motion flow concept. If you can have high motion flow with 1080/60 sources why cant we have any motion flow at 2160? Whats the processor doing? Again, why use RC?! Smooth motion flow would be better than dark frames via impulse motion flow.
Lets do the math!!!! its a firmware upgrade away maybe!!
post #1838 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by espny View Post

I am very aware of th motion flow concept. If you can have high motion flow with 1080/60 sources why cant we have any motion flow at 2160? Whats the processor doing? Again, why use RC?! Smooth motion flow would be better than dark frames via impulse motion flow.
Lets do the math!!!! its a firmware upgrade away maybe!!

You're missing the point. It's not as simple as a firmware upgrade. The hardware itself is not capable of processing that much information in a real time manner. Even high end PCs using SVP Smooth Motion to do the frame interpolation cannot handle the load and these are multi-thousand dollar overclocked liquid cooled PCs. Even something like my high end nvidia GTX 690 cannot handle it. That video card alone is $1000. Sony would need to create VERY efficient software along with a VERY beefy workload specific processing unit for this to work. You need to understand that what's in the 600ES cannot handle that type of workload. It would have driven the cost of this projector way up and it's honestly as simple as that. Real time 4K frame interpolation is still a few years away for it to be economically feasible, aka cheap enough to incorporate into projectors or higher end UHD flat panels.
Edited by Seegs108 - 2/1/14 at 5:26pm
post #1839 of 2814
When thinking about it, Sony could possibly downscale UHD/4K content to 1080p and then do the frame interpolation and then scale the content back to UHD/4K. That MIGHT be plausible depending on how much headroom the processors have and how much lag you're willing to deal with but I think it would kill the entire point of feeding the projector 4K content. You would most likely lose quite a bit of resolution doing something like that.
post #1840 of 2814
Motion flow aids are needed for certain video content such as many sports. The server 4K content is mostly film at 24 fps. dark frame insertion is available for motion handling of films.
Edited by mark haflich - 2/2/14 at 6:10am
post #1841 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

2160p at 60hz is only handled at YCC 420. You need HDMI 2.0 for this, as HDMI 1.4 only handles YCC 422.

Unfortunately there is no graphics adaptor with HDMI 2.0 yet. Should arrive Q2 or Q3, when the HDMI 2.0 chipsets become available in quantity.

What do you use now?
post #1842 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by wagnerc View Post

What do you use now?

I'm mostly interested in 2D/3D movies at 24p, so 60p not really an issue for me, especially from an HTPC. At the moment I'm using an AMD 7870 to test non protected 4K video content when I test a display, but that's limited to 24/30p in 4K.
post #1843 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by d.j. View Post

Okay, RapalloAV ( and your other guy´s ) , here is some bonus info wink.gifbiggrin.gif

( Im not 100% sure ( only 99% tongue.gif ) about the 500/600ES, but I think its the same, because thats how it Works on the 1000ES, 95ES etc. )
The remote control included with Projector nowadays, dosnt have any button for "HIDE Picture", BUT the projector DO have the function smile.gif, ( Sony calls it "pic mute" ) and if you have and old Sony projector remote control, you can find the button on it, and it do Work on the new ones too.

Or if you have an tablet etc. you can download the remote control app for Sony projectores, which has the "pic mute" button as standard.


dj

Thanks D.J. for that piece of information. I do not have an old Sony remote with the "pic mute" button so could someone give me a model number of a projector with a remote that does please. Since I do not have a remote I will just add this projector to a tablet or harmony remote and then transfer to a second remote with
the current projector and then assign to a button. I could easily add this to my remote automation process for scene control.

One problem I see with this feature on the 500/600 though is that if off too long in the middle of a movie you may have to wait for the convergence to settle down and the lamp warm up before resuming a movie. If I recall the convergence will go south really quickly once the PJ is turned off. Not 100% on the time frame but
worth keeping in mind for sure.
post #1844 of 2814
I seriously doubt that from normal viewing distances one would be able to detect misconvergence or its attenuation caused by warmup during most movies.

I have a GREAT idea. Roxiedog, why don't you keep busy today by identifying torture test movies that show misconvergence at normal viewing distances (after warmup correction) during the first twenty minutes of warmup.
Edited by mark haflich - 2/2/14 at 1:04pm
post #1845 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post


One problem I see with this feature on the 500/600 though is that if off too long in the middle of a movie you may have to wait for the convergence to settle down and the lamp warm up before resuming a movie. If I recall the convergence will go south really quickly once the PJ is turned off. Not 100% on the time frame but
worth keeping in mind for sure.

It doesn't work like that. The lamp is not turned off. Hide (or pic mute) just has the projector display "black".
post #1846 of 2814
You mean gray. smile.gif The only turn off for complete black would be an LED lit projector. You can't willy nilly turn a lamp off, shortens the light and if the lamp was turned off, it would trigger the cool off cycle and then require a warm up on restriking.
post #1847 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

A hide button is an absolute must if one has a curtain with footlights, especially if you are into a professional style of presentation.

I cue up my movie and pause it. The HIDE is in place so it doesn't show on the curtain. When everyone is seated I dim the ceiling lights, then the wall lights. As I hit "start show" on my ipad simultaneously the curtain opens, the curtain lights dim and the HIDE opens up. No different to what I once did as a cinema projectionist manually.

All 35MM projectors have a HIDE, it is called the douser. wink.gif

Look at my HT below my signature, you will see the cinema and understand why I need a HIDE button on all my projectors. Without it I cant do the same type of presentations I did for more than 35+ years in the cinemas I worked in.

Thanks. For you it sounds like a must have feature. I don't have the same style theater set up as you do, so I've never had a need for a hide feature myself.
post #1848 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Thanks. For you it sounds like a must have feature. I don't have the same style theater set up as you do, so I've never had a need for a hide feature myself.

Precisely, 99% of people would never need a HIDE button.
But when projector manufacturers do add the feature the model will appeal to people like myself.
I would never buy a projector without the feature...... looks like the 500/600 has it even though it is a bit hidden in the menu.
post #1849 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I seriously doubt that from normal viewing distances one would be able to detect misconvergence or its attenuation caused by warmup during most movies.

I have a GREAT idea. Roxiedod, why don't you keep busy today by identifying torture test movies that show misconvergence at normal viewing distances (after warmup correction) during the first twenty minutes of warmup.

Well, if you say so I will agree, you have more experience that I besides, you won't catch me sitting around on a weekend watching movies. I cleaned out the garage , skied 25 kilometers cross country and after supper I will play 2 hours of hockey.
Went I get home I'll fire up a movie and once warmed up I'll shut down the beast for 5 minutes, that should be enough of a "torture" test for me anyway. BTW not sure there is a "normal" viewing distance but will try my best to see what I can from 10-14 feet
from a 120" diagonal 2.35:1. tongue.gif
Edited by roxiedog13 - 2/2/14 at 12:01pm
post #1850 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post

It doesn't work like that. The lamp is not turned off. Hide (or pic mute) just has the projector display "black".

Well then, enough said that is what I needed to hear. No need to perform my off torture testing later as planned, instead just watch a movie and enjoy. All I need now is the model number of a projector that has a pic mute feature.
post #1851 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

A hide button is an absolute must if one has a curtain with footlights, especially if you are into a professional style of presentation.

I cue up my movie and pause it. The HIDE is in place so it doesn't show on the curtain. When everyone is seated I dim the ceiling lights, then the wall lights. As I hit "start show" on my ipad simultaneously the curtain opens, the curtain lights dim and the HIDE opens up. No different to what I once did as a cinema projectionist manually.

All 35MM projectors have a HIDE, it is called the douser. wink.gif

Look at my HT below my signature, you will see the cinema and understand why I need a HIDE button on all my projectors. Without it I cant do the same type of presentations I did for more than 35+ years in the cinemas I worked in.

Very nice theater, well done, I can certainly see why you would want the hide feature, very professional indeed. I'm doing something very similar as well, so the hide ( pic mute ) will be part of my automation system when I get around to it.
post #1852 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Precisely, 99% of people would never need a HIDE button.
But when projector manufacturers do add the feature the model will appeal to people like myself.
I would never buy a projector without the feature...... looks like the 500/600 has it even though it is a bit hidden in the menu.

If you believe the feature is there already I will have to take a look, certainly would be easier than importing the code and adding to the automation menu.
post #1853 of 2814
By normal, I mean at least say 5 ft from the screen. I doubt anyone sits closer to a 90 inch D or larger screen.
post #1854 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

If you believe the feature is there already I will have to take a look, certainly would be easier than importing the code and adding to the automation menu.

Somebody else here said the feature is in the 500/600, think its called picture mute, if you can find it please let me know?
post #1855 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I seriously doubt that from normal viewing distances one would be able to detect misconvergence or its attenuation caused by warmup during most movies.

Even 1/2 pixel is noticeable enough to be distracting to some eyes. Mark - you may recall that I was fairly disappointed with the much-praised "Ruby" not long after my purchase for two reasons: the flicker that plagued many units, but went unnoticed by most people (including your demo unit, on which I noticed the flicker after less than a minute of viewing) and the mis-convergence (for which I sent it back to Laredo only to have them return it as being within spec... they didn't fix the flicker either; just popped a new lamp in there).

I can absolutely see the difference between my VW600 when it first powers on and after 20+ minutes to warm up, on a variety of content at around 8.5' from a 116" diagonal screen. That's why I was curious about who else in the thread was observing this trait. Obviously, it's most apparent on non-movie content (e.g the menus, or anything with deliberate pixel structure [web browser on HTPC]), but I'd put money on being able to call it out from normal viewing distances on any high-detail, high-contrast source material. It's noticeable as a softness and slight shifting of color that's quite similar to CA. I'm not bragging about visual accuity here... I have regular 20:20 vision, I'm pretty sure. I think it's more that some people are able to subconsciously "tune out" certain artifacts and some aren't. I wish I didn't notice this stuff... It would save me a ton of money!

Fortunately, once the VW600 IS warm it's heaven... it's genuinely the first projector I've owned on which I don't find at least one or two nagging faults that distract me from enjoying the content. I couldn't be happier with the picture it throws! OK... actually the iris action is disappointingly obvious when a dark scene fades fully to black (even on 'limited' mode), but that's the only nit I've spotted to pick so far! tongue.gif
post #1856 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Coupe View Post

Even 1/2 pixel is noticeable enough to be distracting to some eyes. Mark - you may recall that I was fairly disappointed with the much-praised "Ruby" not long after my purchase for two reasons: the flicker that plagued many units, but went unnoticed by most people (including your demo unit, on which I noticed the flicker after less than a minute of viewing) and the mis-convergence (for which I sent it back to Laredo only to have them return it as being within spec... they didn't fix the flicker either; just popped a new lamp in there).

I can absolutely see the difference between my VW600 when it first powers on and after 20+ minutes to warm up, on a variety of content at around 8.5' from a 116" diagonal screen. That's why I was curious about who else in the thread was observing this trait. Obviously, it's most apparent on non-movie content (e.g the menus, or anything with deliberate pixel structure [web browser on HTPC]), but I'd put money on being able to call it out from normal viewing distances on any high-detail, high-contrast source material. It's noticeable as a softness and slight shifting of color that's quite similar to CA. I'm not bragging about visual accuity here... I have regular 20:20 vision, I'm pretty sure. I think it's more that some people are able to subconsciously "tune out" certain artifacts and some aren't. I wish I didn't notice this stuff... It would save me a ton of money!

Fortunately, once the VW600 IS warm it's heaven... it's genuinely the first projector I've owned on which I don't find at least one or two nagging faults that distract me from enjoying the content. I couldn't be happier with the picture it throws! OK... actually the iris action is disappointingly obvious when a dark scene fades fully to black (even on 'limited' mode), but that's the only nit I've spotted to pick so far! tongue.gif

You describe exactly what I experience. I can clearly see the blue convergence off from the very beginning. After 20-30 minutes all convergence is almost dead on and the PQ is just so much sharper and brighter..... if that is possible. I normally turn on the PJ 10 minutes early so by the time I fiddle with this
and that , once everyone is seated and comfy cozy the PJ has settled in .
post #1857 of 2814
Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

You describe exactly what I experience. I can clearly see the blue convergence off from the very beginning. After 20-30 minutes all convergence is almost dead on and the PQ is just so much sharper and brighter..... if that is possible. I normally turn on the PJ 10 minutes early so by the time I fiddle with this
and that , once everyone is seated and comfy cozy the PJ has settled in .


I'm not sure if it really seems brighter to me after the first minute or two, but that sounds plausible given the UHP lamp. It definitely sharpens up over the first 20 minutes or so. Having a "warm up" period isn't really a major inconvenience for a picture this good... Like you said, it just becomes a process/habit thing. Step 1 = turn on projector; I can turn it on before I pop the popcorn and such smile.gif The important thing is that it doesn't drift at all after said warm-up period, and those who responded seem to agree that it settles in and sticks once its warm. Furthermore, it's not as if it looks BAD when its cold - it's still a stunning image!
post #1858 of 2814
If the blue is off and you watch white edges such as on a white letter crawl or a white football helmit, you will see the misconvergence but on most stuff you won't. As to brighter, your eyes are very insensitive to blue and for white blue contributes only about 8% of the light. Red and green convergence is much more important. Now if you put up grid linein white you will see misconvergence of green and red from normal viewing distances but probably one won't be able to discern the blue without moving closer to the screen.
post #1859 of 2814
Does anybody have any pixelation / motion issues with the 600ES? I was watching the super bowl today and got quite a bit of pixelation / blurring off and on. My set up is:

Dish Hopper (2m Straightwire SDMI HDMI cable) -> Krell S1200 U processor --> Sony VW600ES (Straight Wire 16M SMDI HDMI cable.


While the Sony Streamer (connected to HDMI 2 using the same 16m Straightwire Cable) and Oppo 105 (going through the Krell unit) look great, I am still not happy with my dish network results. I know they won't be the same quality, but my old Runco VX-1000c (720p) seemed to have better results with Dish Network than this unit. Any ideas what I could have done wrong in setting it up which could cause this? Should I change out the short HDMI going from Dish to the processor? Do cables cause pixelation? I currently have my dish box sitting on top of a line conditioner... could that cause this?

Please advise. Thanks!
post #1860 of 2814
The detail on the 4k movies is pretty incredible. However, I have not being able to get Blu rays to look anywhere close to that. There are a few exceptions such as Oblivion. Most Blu rays look softer, dimmer, and lack detail. I would agree that the 4k images vary, but I think thats more to do with the source. The image quality is consistently excellent, bright,and detailed.

I would be very interested to know what Blu ray players and screens people with non dedicated theaters are using. I'm using a ps3 and a Firehawk G4, 120 inch, 2:35. I'm not enjoying the Firehawk at all and similarly realise that 2:35 is redundant with the Firehawk Grey material. It acts as a masking system, so you may as well figure out your maximum, width and go with a 16:9 screen, no? I'm going to finally open the Ps4 tomorrow and see if the HDMI 2.0 makes a difference. Anyone else using a Firehawk G4 too? I'm running this sucker on high lamp and all the settings on max to get a bright picture at night with no ambient or extraneous light!
Edited by hwoarang - 2/2/14 at 11:46pm
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