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Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 63

post #1861 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by e11271 View Post

Does anybody have any pixelation / motion issues with the 600ES? I was watching the super bowl today and got quite a bit of pixelation / blurring off and on. My set up is:

Dish Hopper (2m Straightwire SDMI HDMI cable) -> Krell S1200 U processor --> Sony VW600ES (Straight Wire 16M SMDI HDMI cable.


While the Sony Streamer (connected to HDMI 2 using the same 16m Straightwire Cable) and Oppo 105 (going through the Krell unit) look great, I am still not happy with my dish network results. I know they won't be the same quality, but my old Runco VX-1000c (720p) seemed to have better results with Dish Network than this unit. Any ideas what I could have done wrong in setting it up which could cause this? Should I change out the short HDMI going from Dish to the processor? Do cables cause pixelation? I currently have my dish box sitting on top of a line conditioner... could that cause this?

Please advise. Thanks!

It's hard to be certain w/o seeing it first-hand, but what you're describing could easily be signal quality issues: compression artifacts, dropped packets, etc. It could also be "Reality Creation" being turned up too high and/or the extra resolution exacerbating existing artifacts that you didn't notice with the 720p display.

Cables are very unlikely to be causing pixelation, and it's even more doubtful that the proximity of the dish box to the line conditioner is causing issues. Generally, if the cable is bad enough to cause issues, they are constant and quite perceptible. Given that your Oppo+Krell look great, I'm inclined to think that the higher resolution of the new display is bringing existing source material flaws into view... Last time I saw satellite content, compression artifacts were common enough to be distracting.
post #1862 of 2819

I just set up my 600ES with Firehawk G4 110" diagonal (96" width) 16:9 this week and have been very happy with the images on bluray (Oppo 93).  Have not had any issues with sparkles on screen and have found similar to your observation that even 2:35 images look good with Firehawk providing pseudo-masking.  Watched the SB with 15 guests last night with low lamp, TV mode and had a very bright image even with lights on in background (Dark blue-black ceiling, no other ambient light).  Projector lens 146" to screen.  Have jsut viewed a few free 4k shorts from Sony media player and look great.  DVD's played on Oppo look OK bu soft with much less detail then Bluray or even HDTV from Fios.

post #1863 of 2819
After my wife said many times that she doesn't see any difference in between 95ES and 600ES, I decided to put the two together to see the difference. I couldn't blow up the image to full screen and had to zoom all the way in to fit them on screen. Comparing the two together, the most obvious difference was how bright and alive 600ES image looked. One point to keep in mind is that 95ES has around 800 hours. So I put it on high lamp to justify the comparison a bit more. Still there was no comparison. 600ES looked much brighter in low lamp and could clearly see the distinction of colors. Comparing 95es with 600es all the way zoomed in, 95es looked pale IMO.

Then I decided to compare them on full screen of 145" 2.3.5 to see how 600ES handles image noise. I picked a scene from Oblivion (just before swimming pool scene) where I could see decent image noise. I switched back and forth in between two projectors to see how 600Es handles image noise as compared to 95es. 95ES showed a lot of noise in that scene and 600ES was able to cut it into like half. 600Es took care of image noise to the point where it wasn't obvious unless you pay attention to it. Again brightness wise, there was no comparison.

Before I bought 600Es, I was thinking over and over again if it would be worth it to go fro 600ES from 95ES since the image on 95ES looked very nice. After comparing the two, woooow. What a difference. I could very well be the brightness if we ignore the image noise but the image looks so much better. I hope those who are using 95ES and deciding to go with 600ES will find this post useful.

Then I watched District 9 on 600es. The movie is in 16:9 ratio. Throughout the movie, I couldn't find one scene where I could see any image noise.
I wish if we could somehow get rid of all image noise in all Blue Ray movies. The best image quality so far is still 4K movies. Total Recall and clip from In the Rings of Saturn are jaw dropping.
Edited by SherazNJ - 2/3/14 at 6:35am
post #1864 of 2819

And was your wife happy with the improvement the 600es brought after this comparison ? ^^

post #1865 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaal View Post

And was your wife happy with the improvement the 600es brought after this comparison ? ^^

Honestly, she doesn't care that much of how nice an image looks or how our theater sounds as long as movie has a good story. She is not picky about sound or image. But she could clearly see the difference when I put them together and before she wasn't sure of the difference. She also noticed the image noise reduction.

Here is the perfect example. Before, I was using Definite Technology BP7006 speakers with no subs and then I switched to Klipsch RF 82 with two 15" XV15 Subs perfectly calibrated (using REW) and AT screen and she didn't notice any difference besides the fact that she was concerned about 2nd floor shaking smile.gif

So her saying that its brighter and could notice image noise reduction means there is a Biggg difference.
post #1866 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

After my wife said many times that she doesn't see any difference in between 95ES and 600ES, I decided to put the two together to see the difference. I couldn't blow up the image to full screen and had to zoom all the way in to fit them on screen. Comparing the two together, the most obvious difference was how bright and alive 600ES image looked. One point to keep in mind is that 95ES has around 800 hours. So I put it on high lamp to justify the comparison a bit more. Still there was no comparison. 600ES looked much brighter in low lamp and could clearly see the distinction of colors. Comparing 95es with 600es all the way zoomed in, 95es looked pale IMO.

Then I decided to compare them on full screen of 145" 2.3.5 to see how 600ES handles image noise. I picked a scene from Oblivion (just before swimming pool scene) where I could see decent image noise. I switched back and forth in between two projectors to see how 600Es handles image noise as compared to 95es. 95ES showed a lot of noise in that scene and 600ES was able to cut it into like half. 600Es took care of image noise to the point where it wasn't obvious unless you pay attention to it. Again brightness wise, there was no comparison.

Before I bought 600Es, I was thinking over and over again if it would be worth it to go fro 600ES from 95ES since the image on 95ES looked very nice. After comparing the two, woooow. What a difference. I could very well be the brightness if we ignore the image noise but the image looks so much better. I hope those who are using 95ES and deciding to go with 600ES will find this post useful.

Then I watched District 9 on 600es. The movie is in 16:9 ratio. Throughout the movie, I couldn't find one scene where I could see any image noise.
I wish if we could somehow get rid of all image noise in all Blue Ray movies. The best image quality so far is still 4K movies. Total Recall and clip from In the Rings of Saturn are jaw dropping.

I am very sorry, but if your wife does not see any difference she either needs new glasses or your settings are terrible .... Just kidding!!! :)

post #1867 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by espny View Post
 

I am very sorry, but if your wife does not see any difference she either needs new glasses or your settings are terrible .... Just kidding!!! :)

Actually I think he is somewhat lucky. I can tell you that the opposite is not always easy either. My wife will see every gamma, color and contrast adjustments in 5 mins. She does not really care about picture quality, it's not her hobby, but she has a dam good eye for someone not trained to see artefacts and picture defects. The problem is that sometimes she'll point out artefacts I did not see first, so I'm aware of even more PQ problems I wish I could have ignored... cause once you know it, chances are you'll focus on this much more while watching a movie...

post #1868 of 2819

My wife would point out every bit of crosstalk too but she is great help finding/creating a descent picture too. And she loves movies... ;)

post #1869 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by espny View Post

I am very sorry, but if your wife does not see any difference she either needs new glasses or your settings are terrible .... Just kidding!!! smile.gif

Nope. She just doesn't pay that much attention. She was able to point out that Focus was off though smile.gif
post #1870 of 2819
Changing topic. I'm a bit confused as to what Sharp image means and what does it have to do with Sharpness settings in projector? What does it mean when one says "a very sharp image"? Does it mean an image with no image noise or something else?
post #1871 of 2819
Did someone say there was an Iphone app or ipad app to control the Sony 600ES?

if so what is the name of the app on the APP store.
post #1872 of 2819
SOWK: Did you get your 600ES that you are satisfied with? Very much looking forward to read your review.
post #1873 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post

Thanks D.J. for that piece of information. I do not have an old Sony remote with the "pic mute" button so could someone give me a model number of a projector with a remote that does please. Since I do not have a remote I will just add this projector to a tablet or harmony remote and then transfer to a second remote with
the current projector and then assign to a button. I could easily add this to my remote automation process for scene control.

One problem I see with this feature on the 500/600 though is that if off too long in the middle of a movie you may have to wait for the convergence to settle down and the lamp warm up before resuming a movie. If I recall the convergence will go south really quickly once the PJ is turned off. Not 100% on the time frame but
worth keeping in mind for sure.



Sure, you can ordrer the remote from the VPL-HW10 ( remote : RM-PJAW15 ) , it has the Pic Mute button.


dj
post #1874 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post

Precisely, 99% of people would never need a HIDE button.
But when projector manufacturers do add the feature the model will appeal to people like myself.
I would never buy a projector without the feature...... looks like the 500/600 has it even though it is a bit hidden in the menu.


No, it not even in the menu ( or manual ), but the function is still inside the Electronic ( it seems that they just drop the button for the function - but still leave it in there rolleyes.gif ), so it can be used with the "correct" remote or tablet with the the Sony remote app. which to have the function button as standard.


dj
post #1875 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Coupe View Post

It's hard to be certain w/o seeing it first-hand, but what you're describing could easily be signal quality issues: compression artifacts, dropped packets, etc. It could also be "Reality Creation" being turned up too high and/or the extra resolution exacerbating existing artifacts that you didn't notice with the 720p display.

Cables are very unlikely to be causing pixelation, and it's even more doubtful that the proximity of the dish box to the line conditioner is causing issues. Generally, if the cable is bad enough to cause issues, they are constant and quite perceptible. Given that your Oppo+Krell look great, I'm inclined to think that the higher resolution of the new display is bringing existing source material flaws into view... Last time I saw satellite content, compression artifacts were common enough to be distracting.

Thank you for responding! Did anyone else see issues during the super bowl on this projector who may have dish network?
post #1876 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlsound View Post

I just set up my 600ES with Firehawk G4 110" diagonal (96" width) 16:9 this week and have been very happy with the images on bluray (Oppo 93).  Have not had any issues with sparkles on screen and have found similar to your observation that even 2:35 images look good with Firehawk providing pseudo-masking.  Watched the SB with 15 guests last night with low lamp, TV mode and had a very bright image even with lights on in background (Dark blue-black ceiling, no other ambient light).  Projector lens 146" to screen.  Have jsut viewed a few free 4k shorts from Sony media player and look great.  DVD's played on Oppo look OK bu soft with much less detail then Bluray or even HDTV from Fios.

Fascinating. Thanks for that. We have a similar setup. I can't imagine that the extra 10" of screen with 14' between screen and lens would make any difference. What settings are you using, and low lamp?! With the lights on?!
Edited by hwoarang - 2/3/14 at 11:47am
post #1877 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

SOWK: Did you get your 600ES that you are satisfied with? Very much looking forward to read your review.

Not sure yet...

The one I have now is losing brightness at an alarming rate...


Started at 180 Lux at 0 Hours
Now at 152 Lux at 16 Hours...

If it stays at 152 for a while now I am ok. but if it keeps dropping I will be making a call to Sony.

That just doesn't seem right...

AKA not the same level as the JVC bulbs now.
post #1878 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Not sure yet...

The one I have now is losing brightness at an alarming rate...


Started at 180 Lux at 0 Hours
Now at 152 Lux at 16 Hours...

If it stays at 152 for a while now I am ok. but if it keeps dropping I will be making a call to Sony.

That just doesn't seem right...

AKA not the same level as the JVC bulbs now.

The first hours are usually like that and evens out on every projector i have ever seen.

Mark - Any input on this ?

Craig
post #1879 of 2819
I've seen projectors drop quick too, but not 15% in 15 hours....
post #1880 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by e11271 View Post

Does anybody have any pixelation / motion issues with the 600ES? I was watching the super bowl today and got quite a bit of pixelation / blurring off and on. My set up is:

Dish Hopper (2m Straightwire SDMI HDMI cable) -> Krell S1200 U processor --> Sony VW600ES (Straight Wire 16M SMDI HDMI cable.
...

Please advise. Thanks!
Don't blame any other part of your image chain - it was the source.

I have not seen such a poor picture from Dish for the Superbowl before - totally sucked - first time I've seen it with a Hopper. (Previous versions were with a 921 and VIPs to my (JVC RS1) Had me thinking of ChannelMaster and OTA again but I'm too far from SF for an easy solution. It was crushed - some rapid movement scenes looked like low-bandwidth internet streams. Perhaps it was Fox (It was even worse on the Joey frown.gif ) but perhaps someone who had a good OTA signal can tell us if they had problems. (Maybe there's a specific thread elsewhere on that?)
post #1881 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

The first hours are usually like that and evens out on every projector i have ever seen.

Mark - Any input on this ?

Craig

I would try running on high lamp for a few hours every 10 hrs during bulb break. I would not worry too much unless I experience further large drops in the first 100 hours of use. For most bulbs, I would expect a 30% or so drop within the first 200 hours.
post #1882 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by e11271 View Post

Does anybody have any pixelation / motion issues with the 600ES? I was watching the super bowl today and got quite a bit of pixelation / blurring off and on. My set up is:

Dish Hopper (2m Straightwire SDMI HDMI cable) -> Krell S1200 U processor --> Sony VW600ES (Straight Wire 16M SMDI HDMI cable.


While the Sony Streamer (connected to HDMI 2 using the same 16m Straightwire Cable) and Oppo 105 (going through the Krell unit) look great, I am still not happy with my dish network results. I know they won't be the same quality, but my old Runco VX-1000c (720p) seemed to have better results with Dish Network than this unit. Any ideas what I could have done wrong in setting it up which could cause this? Should I change out the short HDMI going from Dish to the processor? Do cables cause pixelation? I currently have my dish box sitting on top of a line conditioner... could that cause this?

Please advise. Thanks!

I suspect you were watching a 720p source but outputting 1080i from your box. This would explain the motion problems forcing an interlacing by the cheap chip in your set to box and then having the Sony deinterlace it and then scaling up to UHD. Try setting your box to native out. You might have to go into the box service menu to do this.
post #1883 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

Honestly, she doesn't care that much of how nice an image looks or how our theater sounds as long as movie has a good story. She is not picky about sound or image. But she could clearly see the difference when I put them together and before she wasn't sure of the difference. She also noticed the image noise reduction.

Here is the perfect example. Before, I was using Definite Technology BP7006 speakers with no subs and then I switched to Klipsch RF 82 with two 15" XV15 Subs perfectly calibrated (using REW) and AT screen and she didn't notice any difference besides the fact that she was concerned about 2nd floor shaking smile.gif

So her saying that its brighter and could notice image noise reduction means there is a Biggg difference.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that the VPL-VW95ES adds noise to the image or are you saying that the 600ES is just superior at reduction in noise that's inherent in the source? Because if it's the latter there are several things you can do to reduce noise when using the VW95ES. I'm not quite sure why you're so keen at getting rid of noise. Using filters to de-noise an image, to reduce film grain, can actually reduce the resolution of the movie you're watching.
post #1884 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJSJones View Post

Don't blame any other part of your image chain - it was the source.

I have not seen such a poor picture from Dish for the Superbowl before - totally sucked - first time I've seen it with a Hopper. (Previous versions were with a 921 and VIPs to my (JVC RS1) Had me thinking of ChannelMaster and OTA again but I'm too far from SF for an easy solution. It was crushed - some rapid movement scenes looked like low-bandwidth internet streams. Perhaps it was Fox (It was even worse on the Joey frown.gif ) but perhaps someone who had a good OTA signal can tell us if they had problems. (Maybe there's a specific thread elsewhere on that?)

Thanks. I was getting dejected after having spent so much money on my equipment and such crap quality! Someone else also mentioned to check my setting as I do have it to output 1080i/1080/p on the hopper. I will check to see if that makes a difference (though I thought fox transmits in 1080i). Thanks guys.
post #1885 of 2819
It may have been Fox. It did not look as good as it should have. using our cable box. I viewed it on a DPI Cine 1000 LED and it looked like crap. I also viewed it on my VW600ES using the tuner in my HTPC and it did not look great. It looked better than the DPI, but still not great. I also viewed it on a JVC using the cable box. It was bad enough, that considered just watching it on TV. frown.gif Since I had already turned off the Sony, we watched it on the JVC.
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post #1886 of 2819
Quote:
Don't blame any other part of your image chain - it was the source.

I have not seen such a poor picture from Dish for the Superbowl before - totally sucked - first time I've seen it with a Hopper. (Previous versions were with a 921 and VIPs to my (JVC RS1) Had me thinking of ChannelMaster and OTA again but I'm too far from SF for an easy solution. It was crushed - some rapid movement scenes looked like low-bandwidth internet streams. Perhaps it was Fox (It was even worse on the Joey frown.gif ) but perhaps someone who had a good OTA signal can tell us if they had problems. (Maybe there's a specific thread elsewhere on that?)

I did not watch the Super Bowl ( I was wine tasting ) but in my experience Fox has more compression and artifacts in the picture than NBC, ABC or CBS. At least on evening shows in HD that I've watched.
post #1887 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by e11271 View Post

Thanks. I was getting dejected after having spent so much money on my equipment and such crap quality! Someone else also mentioned to check my setting as I do have it to output 1080i/1080/p on the hopper. I will check to see if that makes a difference (though I thought fox transmits in 1080i). Thanks guys.

ABC, Fox, and ESPN all are 720p. Your set top box most likely can be set to native out in the user or service menu. Be sure to watch something with lots of horizontal motion like a foot ball game.
post #1888 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that the VPL-VW95ES adds noise to the image or are you saying that the 600ES is just superior at reduction in noise that's inherent in the source? Because if it's the latter there are several things you can do to reduce noise when using the VW95ES. I'm not quite sure why you're so keen at getting rid of noise. Using filters to de-noise an image, to reduce film grain, can actually reduce the resolution of the movie you're watching.

I think its the source causing noise in image. 600Es is reducing it noticeably well when watching on it as compared to 95ES. I don't think there is much to reduce noise on 95ES. Sharpness is set to 13 on it and all extra features are off (including IRIS). That's how the calibrator set it up.
Quote:
I'm not quite sure why you're so keen at getting rid of noise
Because I'm a big fan of crystal clear image. The picture quality I saw in Total Recall (4K) was absolutely crsytal clear. I"m not saying that I'm trying to make 1080P look exactly like 4K cause its not possible but I'm trying to reduce image noise by finding the middle ground of reducing it and keeping a quality image.
post #1889 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I did not watch the Super Bowl ( I was wine tasting ) but in my experience Fox has more compression and artifacts in the picture than NBC, ABC or CBS. At least on evening shows in HD that I've watched.

This is and was the problem.
post #1890 of 2819
Quote:
Originally Posted by SherazNJ View Post

I think its the source causing noise in image. 600Es is reducing it noticeably well when watching on it as compared to 95ES. I don't think there is much to reduce noise on 95ES. Sharpness is set to 13 on it and all extra features are off (including IRIS). That's how the calibrator set it up.


Because I'm a big fan of crystal clear image. The picture quality I saw in Total Recall (4K) was absolutely crsytal clear. I"m not saying that I'm trying to make 1080P look exactly like 4K cause its not possible but I'm trying to reduce image noise by finding the middle ground of reducing it and keeping a quality image.

There are tons of video processing features out there at your disposal to reduce noise. I don't have the Sony but I would be surprised if if didn't have at least a simple noise reduction feature. There are plenty of newer movies, typically those shot digitally, that are crystal clear, but like I said on older films if you're reducing "noise" within the image you are taking away inherent resolution that's within the source. You can see this quite a bit when comparing blu-ray sources from different production houses. As an example there are several versions of The Fifth Element out on blu-ray and it's typically thought that the US blu-ray has the most resolution because it retains the most amount of the films natural grain. The other encodes from Japan, Nordic, ect look cleaner but do lose a bit of detail within the image because they put the master source through a filtering process. The same thing is happening within your 600ES. With these noise reduction filters applied you're almost always doing detrimental damage to your source, especially if you're watching blu-ray. Most people prefer to leave noise filters off so they don't lose resolution on such movies/content.

What I find interesting is that if it's reducing noise, maybe that's why people are claiming better (or less aggressive) RC enhancement. From what I saw on the HW50ES, RC worked great on clean material but on material with film grain it looked awful and gave the image an overcooked appearance. Maybe Sony decided to enable an undefeatable noise filter to give better, more natural looking, RC on the 600ES.
Edited by Seegs108 - 2/3/14 at 4:16pm
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