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Official PSA Triax Thread - Page 39

post #1141 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

I wonder how the Triax compares to a Seaton SubMersive...

Here is my wild arse guess....

I don't know what the cu ft is with the Triax, but assuming it is close the Submersive I would think that the Triax would have around 3db's more output at most frequencies.

My thinking is that it has 1 more driver. If you double the amount of drivers AND double the amount of power you get an increase of 6 db's. Well, the triax has one more and also has more power otherwise that 3rd driver would be just a 1.5 db increase (Submersive has 2400 watt amp, Triax has 4000). But, are the Triax drivers better than the Submersive? Possibly I don't know.

So, I think 3 db's more is a safe estimation.

Now, the JTR Cap S1 has pretty much the same output as a Submersive, and the Cap S2 has 6db's more than the Cap 1S.


Throw all that together and you get:


Triax = Submersive + 3 db's
Cap S2 = Submersive + 6 db's

Still, no commercial sub compares to the Orbit Shifter:

Orbit Shifter = Cap S2 + 6 db's (20hz and above)

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #1142 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post


It's weird though, on some things I've played it almost feels like something is missing compared to my SVS cylinder. But on others I'm hearing more than the cylinder. My guess is what I'm hearing is the differences in response and distortion. Keep in mind I've done nothing but a quick level set on the Triax. I still need to take some measurements, tweak the crossover settings, and fine tune the level.

Saturn, I can't recommend enough that you get a Dayton Omnimic so you can see what is going on in your room, especially at your main LP. I put off buying one forever but finally pretty much had to when I did my DIY SI subs.

Now, that is a moot point if you do not have any other options for sub placement and main listening position seat. However if you can move one or both of those around some definitely get the omnimic!! It's so easy to use and is an incredible tool for figuring out the best place in the room for your sub and main seat.

I guarantee you what you are hearing dip(s) and peak(s) in the bass frequencies not any shortcoming on the sub itself.


Hold up.... I just saw that you said you need to take some measurements - looks like you already have REW or an Omnimic. Carry on. biggrin.gif
post #1143 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake18 View Post

My guess is this is the new gold standard sub to beat. How low can this thing hit? Single digits?

Other guys rooms may be different but in MY room I have found that from 14hz and below I could care less about the bass. I have 8 18" drivers so I don't think it's a lack of displacement (but I'm open to the idea that it could be).

What I tried was running a few 5 star bass movies and ran them using the low pass filter function on my minidsp. I started at 20hz - this means that I was getting basically NO bass ABOVE 20hz. I watched a scene - tons of couch shake/body feel/good times/etc. Next I lowered the low pass filter to 19 hz and reapeated the same scene. Still pretty good. I continued this process 1 hz at a time. Each time I got less couch shake/body feel until I got down to 14 hz.

At 14hz (meaning only frequencies from 14hz and below were playing) I felt nothing. All I heard was bad sounds from my house - creaking doors, ceiling, etc. I tried boosting up the sub volume some more and all I got was louder sounds of my house in pain but no feel from the bass and obviously no sound (other than the house saying ouch).

So, that's in my room. I'm on concrete so maybe guys on suspended floors have a different experience. A friend of mine on the forum has the same subs as me and has 16 of them compared to my 8 and he in a smaller room and he does feel and enjoy bass from 14hz and down, but I'm not positive if he has tried my same experiment or not.

It's possible that I just need more displacement, like I said earlier, but if that's the case then there is no way that a commercial sub or two (even if it's a Triax a Cap 2 sealed or whatever other heavy hitter) could do anything for me from 14hz and down either because I already have a lot more output than 1 or 2 of those subs.



Ok, so long answer but my point is - IMO what really matters is the output from 15hz and above.
post #1144 of 3312
Definitely mostly true, carp. What feels most impressive is usually the stuff around 20Hz, as that's roughly the frequency where our furniture resonates. Anywhere from 15-35Hz seems to be where users feel the bass is most impressive from an "OMG my house is imploding" perspective. smile.gif

I say mostly true because something is definitely missing when you A/B demo with and without the content below 15Hz. But it only feels this way if you can really reproduce that content. If not, ignorance is bliss! wink.gif I'm sure you've already tried this, but if others (who can actually reproduce that stuff at high levels) haven't demoed with and without the content, or the opposite of what you did, they definitely should. It adds a ton of tension when used as such, and gives weight to effects that otherwise wouldn't have it.
post #1145 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by nube View Post

Definitely mostly true, carp. What feels most impressive is usually the stuff around 20Hz, as that's roughly the frequency where our furniture resonates. Anywhere from 15-35Hz seems to be where users feel the bass is most impressive from an "OMG my house is imploding" perspective. smile.gif

I say mostly true because something is definitely missing when you A/B demo with and without the content below 15Hz. But it only feels this way if you can really reproduce that content. If not, ignorance is bliss! wink.gif I'm sure you've already tried this, but if others haven't demoed with and without the content, or the opposite of what you did, they definitely should.


Ha, well good point Nube. With all my preaching lately about not caring about bass from 14hz and below I have not turned on a high pass filter at 14hz so that says a lot right there. redface.gif
post #1146 of 3312
Amen! Sealed sub owners unite! wink.gif
post #1147 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Saturn, I can't recommend enough that you get a Dayton Omnimic so you can see what is going on in your room, especially at your main LP. I put off buying one forever but finally pretty much had to when I did my DIY SI subs.

Now, that is a moot point if you do not have any other options for sub placement and main listening position seat. However if you can move one or both of those around some definitely get the omnimic!! It's so easy to use and is an incredible tool for figuring out the best place in the room for your sub and main seat.

I guarantee you what you are hearing dip(s) and peak(s) in the bass frequencies not any shortcoming on the sub itself.


Hold up.... I just saw that you said you need to take some measurements - looks like you already have REW or an Omnimic. Carry on. biggrin.gif

I see you caught it at the end there wink.gif .... yes, I have a UMIK 1 and REW, just not enough time..lol.

Given the size of this beast, the corner it's in is pretty much the only spot it will fit. Also, the LP is fixed as well........the downside of not having a dedicated AV room. frown.gif

On the plus side I got a very good response even without EQ (I don't have an EQ unit or Audyssey) from my SVS in that same corner; Tom said I could expect a similar response from the Triax in the same location. I'll find out for sure when I get a chance to take some measurements (hopefully later this week). When I finally got my mic and REW earlier this year, I measured my SVS in 7 different locations even though I couldn't leave it in most of those places and the best spot turned out to be the front left corner where I had it to begin with, and where the Triax currently resides. I'll certainly post my graphs when I get a chance. smile.gif

I agree with you; I don't think I'm hear any shortcoming of the Triax. I'm not sure the words "shortcoming" and "Triax" belong in the same sentence!

I suspect what I'm hearing as "missing" is the Triax's lower distortion and ringing/overhang. wink.gif
post #1148 of 3312
Saturn94,

(Apologies if this is preaching to the choir or pedantic - I haven't been keeping up with the thread.)

It's been my experience that, when dealing with the plethora of really good (SVS pc) to world class (PSA triax) subs, carp is 100% right. Your old sub likely didn't create a lot of distortion during normal playback unless you were severely overdriving it and, even then, SVS makes some pretty bulletproof stuff, so that wouldn't be my first inclination.

Rather, I'd think you're hearing peaky frequency responses. Loud peaks make a much larger impression on us than the levels of distortion you could likely see from that old SVS sub. We train ourselves to like peaky frequency response over time, as our ear-->brain connection is wired such that louder almost always sounds "better," "fuller," or "more," especially when it comes to bass frequencies.

I suspect that a lot of people experience this, simply because they have taught themselves to think of it in this way by upgrading, not EQ'ing flat, and automatically equating the new higher dollar sound with better sound - which may not always be the case. We always want our upgrades to be upgrades, right? Once you get used to a particular response, that becomes your expectation.

If you EQ flat and level/gain matched to your other speakers, it will sound weird (and probably not good) for a while. It takes a fair amount of time to retrain the brain to hear the nuances of a flat frequency response. However, I guarantee it's worth it!

Also, on a related side note, I wouldn't trust any receiver's room correction software to actually get it right without unsmoothed REW graphs that verify it as such.
post #1149 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Other guys rooms may be different but in MY room I have found that from 14hz and below I could care less about the bass. I have 8 18" drivers so I don't think it's a lack of displacement (but I'm open to the idea that it could be).

What I tried was running a few 5 star bass movies and ran them using the low pass filter function on my minidsp. I started at 20hz - this means that I was getting basically NO bass ABOVE 20hz. I watched a scene - tons of couch shake/body feel/good times/etc. Next I lowered the low pass filter to 19 hz and reapeated the same scene. Still pretty good. I continued this process 1 hz at a time. Each time I got less couch shake/body feel until I got down to 14 hz.

At 14hz (meaning only frequencies from 14hz and below were playing) I felt nothing. All I heard was bad sounds from my house - creaking doors, ceiling, etc. I tried boosting up the sub volume some more and all I got was louder sounds of my house in pain but no feel from the bass and obviously no sound (other than the house saying ouch).

So, that's in my room. I'm on concrete so maybe guys on suspended floors have a different experience. A friend of mine on the forum has the same subs as me and has 16 of them compared to my 8 and he in a smaller room and he does feel and enjoy bass from 14hz and down, but I'm not positive if he has tried my same experiment or not.

It's possible that I just need more displacement, like I said earlier, but if that's the case then there is no way that a commercial sub or two (even if it's a Triax a Cap 2 sealed or whatever other heavy hitter) could do anything for me from 14hz and down either because I already have a lot more output than 1 or 2 of those subs.



Ok, so long answer but my point is - IMO what really matters is the output from 15hz and above.


Hey that's a cool way to do some testing! Your friend has 16? Holy cow, I'll bet he doesn't go to the movies!
post #1150 of 3312
Tom had always told me that he figured 1 Triax would equal 1.5 SubM HP.
post #1151 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Hey that's a cool way to do some testing! Your friend has 16? Holy cow, I'll bet he doesn't go to the movies!



He's around here as much as I am, check out this thread - nuts man!! smile.gif


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1484131/home-theater-of-the-month-popalocks-bassment-big-screen-bigger-subs#post_23585014
post #1152 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Tom had always told me that he figured 1 Triax would equal 1.5 SubM HP.


Whoa!! That means I nailed it right? 1.5 Submersives would be 3 more db's.


*carp pats himself on the back because he's rarely right* biggrin.gif

Oops, talking in the 3rd person means that pat on the back is no longer deserved. frown.gif
post #1153 of 3312
Quote:
*carp pats himself on the back because he's rarely right* biggrin.gif

biggrin.gif and I thought I was the jokester redface.gif I love it! cool.gif Carp was right then..
post #1154 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

Whoa!! That means I nailed it right? 1.5 Submersives would be 3 more db's.


*carp pats himself on the back because he's rarely right* biggrin.gif

Oops, talking in the 3rd person means that pat on the back is no longer deserved. frown.gif

*BlackMamba pats carp on the back instead* it's ok! I'm usually never rite! I'm a newbie! eek.gif
post #1155 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Seaton seems to not want to submit a sub for testing (not kicking over a fight as the owner is a great guy/promises over a year old) and PSA hasn't had time as they're too new.

I think the best test will be a GTG where the Triax is directly compared to the Seaton and Funk subwoofers. Based on what I've read on GTG postings, it's all about the smile factor and so far, all the owners of Triax subs are reporting big smile factors.

Actually I believe that Mark has stated he's in the works right now of sending a SubM HP to Josh Ricci to be tested.
post #1156 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

Actually I believe that Mark has stated he's in the works right now of sending a SubM HP to Josh Ricci to be tested.

Yeah that's what he said about a month ago, so I would presume it's in the works.
post #1157 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Hey that's a cool way to do some testing! Your friend has 16? Holy cow, I'll bet he doesn't go to the movies!

I believe Carp is talking about Papalock...he had the AVS Home Theatre of the month award.
post #1158 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I believe Carp is talking about Papalock...he had the AVS Home Theatre of the month award.

Woah, I'm going to check out his setup smile.gif
post #1159 of 3312
post #1160 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I believe Carp is talking about Papalock...he had the AVS Home Theatre of the month award.

I have to say, just saw Popalocks setup and that is def an out of this world design! A row of monstrous subs at the front, a row of subs behind all the seats, a giant screen, and JTR 212s with Klipsch RFs all over the place! Wow that's amazing, I'm afraid of the price on that dream setup!
post #1161 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I have to say, just saw Popalocks setup and that is def an out of this world design! A row of monstrous subs at the front, a row of subs behind all the seats, a giant screen, and JTR 212s with Klipsch RFs all over the place! Wow that's amazing, I'm afraid of the price on that dream setup!

It's always fun to look! I'll never do it, but you could take it on. One thing over in DIY though> I can't think of a sub like the Triax with all that output in one smallish enclosure.
post #1162 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

It's always fun to look! I'll never do it, but you could take it on. One thing over in DIY though> I can't think of a sub like the Triax with all that output in one smallish enclosure.

itd be pricey but I wonder if anyone would do a build like that with a row of Triaxs in the front and a row behind the seats, that would be awesome! Its kind of scary how powerful a room like that would sound in person, but very interesting at the same time eek.gif
post #1163 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

itd be pricey but I wonder if anyone would do a build like that with a row of Triaxs in the front and a row behind the seats, that would be awesome! Its kind of scary how powerful a room like that would sound in person, but very interesting at the same time eek.gif

Oh yeah! Seems like someone bought three no?
post #1164 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Oh yeah! Seems like someone bought three no?

I think Ray has a 3rd one coming! That's a lot of weight to carry!
Edited by Blackmambakila - 10/27/13 at 2:12pm
post #1165 of 3312
I wonder what 4 Triaxs would sound like biggrin.gif
Edited by Blackmambakila - 10/27/13 at 2:11pm
post #1166 of 3312
It's been quiet around these parts
Edited by Blackmambakila - 10/27/13 at 2:10pm
post #1167 of 3312
eek.gif I can't wait for my Triax!
Edited by Blackmambakila - 10/27/13 at 2:10pm
post #1168 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

It's always fun to look! I'll never do it, but you could take it on. One thing over in DIY though> I can't think of a sub like the Triax with all that output in one smallish enclosure.


A single DIY sub with a LMS 5400 would do the job.


As far as Popalock's subs go (and mine too) 2 of them has more output than a Submersive, probably right around equal to a Triax. So to match Pop you would need 8 Triax subs!! That's what finally pushed me over to DIY, ridiculous bang for the buck. I paid for all 8 subs and the amp to power them by selling 2 Submersives.

Well, that and having a local friend that took the leap first (he build dual 18" Dayton HO subs and I heard one in my room directly compared to my submersives) and helped me through the process along with these flatpacks that make sub enclosures so easy:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/4-sub-flat-pack.html




Don't get me wrong though, I still love ID subs. I really like the looks of the Triax and from what I've read about it:

post #1169 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I have to say, just saw Popalocks setup and that is def an out of this world design! A row of monstrous subs at the front, a row of subs behind all the seats, a giant screen, and JTR 212s with Klipsch RFs all over the place! Wow that's amazing, I'm afraid of the price on that dream setup!

He plans on getting 212's but doesn't have them yet.... ha, unless I missed it! Last I knew he was trying to figure out a way to sneak it past the wife.
post #1170 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

A single DIY sub with a LMS 5400 would do the job.


As far as Popalock's subs go (and mine too) 2 of them has more output than a Submersive, probably right around equal to a Triax. So to match Pop you would need 8 Triax subs!! That's what finally pushed me over to DIY, ridiculous bang for the buck. I paid for all 8 subs and the amp to power them by selling 2 Submersives.

Well, that and having a local friend that took the leap first (he build dual 18" Dayton HO subs and I heard one in my room directly compared to my submersives) and helped me through the process along with these flatpacks that make sub enclosures so easy:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/subwoofer-flatpacks-2/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/4-sub-flat-pack.html




Don't get me wrong though, I still love ID subs. I really like the looks of the Triax and from what I've read about it:


Sounds like if someone was coming to the extreme then DIY would work out, but if someone just wanted to give their setup a good boost in the bass department them 1-4 powered subs do the trick.
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