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Official PSA Triax Thread - Page 5

post #121 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

Remember, the 117.8dB is an average of 20,25,31hz..

Sure enough, but there's not much room for anything drastically different there. Why shouldn't the 20-31.5Hz average track very closely to the actual 25Hz number? Looking at 22 sealed systems on Data-Bass, they fall on average +/-0.5dB. At the extremes one system is 1.1dB higher at 25Hz than the average of the three, and the least is 0.5dB lower.

Our 117.8dB 20-31.5Hz average means we fall between 117.3-118.3dB at 25Hz.

With an Sd of 800cm^2, the three 15's will have to move between 37.6-42.2mm to make those numbers at 2m.

To check our work, we've got a rating of 107.6dB for 20-31.5Hz for the XS30. Give us the same window and we should be looking at 107.1-108.1dB at 25Hz. Same 800cm^2 Sd, the two 15's in the XS30 will have to move 17.4-19.6mm. With a 2" peak to peak spec on that driver (or 25mm one way) it's right on to expect 18-19mm of clean throw.

--

For what it's worth, I'm saying this Triax is a monster. Three high throw 15's with appropriate power and signal shaping in a nice small box. This is doing subwoofers right. cool.gif

From all of the information given, it looks pretty safe to say that we're looking at LMS Ultra level excursion, or double that of the Power X series 15's. Approaching a different way, the +7.2dB per driver advantage of your Triax's numbers vs your XS30's numbers also confirms this.

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #122 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

117.8dB at 20-31Hz (2m) requires 3 x 800cm^2 Sd (15") drivers to each move 40mm one way (cleanly, of course). So we're in the ballpark with what physics says is possible, but it's probably a bit overstated comparable to Data-Bass numbers (just like the XV-15 was).

I'd knock that number down ~2dB, expecting somewhere around 30mm of clean throw one way.

How was the XV15 over stated? If you take data-bass averages and compare them with PSA's they are really close...oh and lets not forget that nobody ever wants to factor in the compensation of 1-1.5db for the mic placement in relation to the driver when Josh tested the XV15.
post #123 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarretc View Post

When did you order the Triax? I ordered my first in August so it looks like I won't be seeing a shipping notice until mid-late next week.

I ordered mine on the 12th of august, man i guess i still wont get it even by next weekend, sucks for me
post #124 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

If you don't convert to pascal (per CEA) before doing all of this you will end up with a completely different data set. Our current data set averages to about 125dB from 20-63hz which is within 0.4(?) of my last posting.

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

I see a 2db difference from your last posting, but maybe I am not doing something right and its no big deal either way....the sub is a beast, what is a 1-2db difference anyway? I was simply trying to put a rough data set together for your patiently waiting Triax customers...perhaps I should not waste my time. smile.gif
post #125 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

How was the XV15 over stated? If you take data-bass averages and compare them with PSA's they are really close...oh and lets not forget that nobody ever wants to factor in the compensation of 1-1.5db for the mic placement in relation to the driver when Josh tested the XV15.

I haven't been following PSA, and so I didn't realize Tom and Josh measured the XV15's with different orientations. So the 2dB difference becomes more a 0.5dB difference if you add compensation for that. My fault.

I, too am confused about the pascal conversion with CEA averages.
post #126 of 3312
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

I ordered mine on the 12th of august, man i guess i still wont get it even by next weekend, sucks for me

The man is going be getting a Triax delivered in a week or two and it sucks to be him. tongue.gif...biggrin.gif
post #127 of 3312
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

I see a 2db difference from your last posting, but maybe I am not doing something right and its no big deal either way....the sub is a beast, what is a 1-2db difference anyway?

Inquiring minds want to know, who's going volunteer to take their Triax to the next local GTG?
post #128 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Inquiring minds want to know, who's going volunteer to take their Triax to the next local GTG?

That would be awesome. Especially , if the Submersive and a JTR sub 2 would be there. It would be one hell of a comparison.
post #129 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Inquiring minds want to know, who's going volunteer to take their Triax to the next local GTG?

Good Question.
post #130 of 3312
Oh I just thought something else I would like to see. Someone compare the Triax to the JL audio Gathom, and the Sub2 (paradigm). Or be down right evil and compare the JL audio F113 to the Triax....biggrin.gif
post #131 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vodhanel View Post

I think we'll get through most of the pre-orders (120 volt) for May and June today. 208-240v orders will take up much of next week. I'm hoping all orders through end of July will be taken care of in this production run(by mid next week). Second production run is scheduled in about 10-12 days. That will be a much larger "run" and should fulfill all current orders.

As much as we would love it----we just can't assemble and test 25 Triax a day. I am estimating 8-12 a day when we can completely focus on them(like today).

If you ordered in May or June you should see tracking info in your inbox late this afternoon. A few toward the end of June may slide until early next week though. We'll do our best!

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

Thanks for the official update. smile.gif

I ordered near the end of July, so I hope it makes it in this production run. wink.gif


PS - I guess I can stop checking my email 50 times a day for now. biggrin.gif
Edited by Saturn94 - 10/11/13 at 1:39pm
post #132 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The man is going be getting a Triax delivered in a week or two and it sucks to be him. tongue.gif...biggrin.gif

Im going to cry, you dont know what its like to need your medicine and not get it mad.gif
Hehe well no watching movies for a while smile.gif
post #133 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Im going to cry, you dont know what its like to need your medicine and not get it mad.gif
Hehe well no watching movies for a while smile.gif

I'm sorry I have a hard time feeling bad for you. Seeing as your getting a sub that might well be the last sub you ever need... cool.gif
post #134 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I haven't been following PSA, and so I didn't realize Tom and Josh measured the XV15's with different orientations. So the 2dB difference becomes more a 0.5dB difference if you add compensation for that. My fault.

I, too am confused about the pascal conversion with CEA averages.

Here's some information taken from an audioholics article:
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size 
Annex A of the CEA 2010 standard recommends adding SPL data in dB to average over the critical bands they refer to as "Ultra Low" (20Hz to 31.5Hz) and "Low" (40 to 63Hz). It is mathematically incorrect to average logarithmic based numbers (such as decibels) as it will bias the outcome to the lowest number in the data set. The correct way to average dB's is to first convert them to Pascals (a linear, not logarithmic, measure of pressure) to properly average the data before converting back to dB's. There is a problem averaging like this, however, since our ears don't hear loudness equally for different frequencies. Averaging in Pascals will bias the average to the highest measurement in the data set. Properly averaging in Pascals (Pa) will make a sub with just one good SPL # still have a good average score. Averaging in dB’s (instead of Pascals) will make a sub with just one bad SPL # look bad. This can be seen in the examples tabulated below.

Averaging across a bandwidth using discrete 1/3 octave wide data sets is just not a good idea any way you slice it. The speaker which is flat is going to achieve approximately the same score as one which is mistuned. If you tune too high, you get a bump followed by a quick rolloff. So if you average over too wide a frequency range, this information is obscured. 1/3 octave measurement is already a crude approximation for a sub. If you average that 1/3rd octave data over an even wider range, it just makes it harder to determine the quality of the product or measured data.
Conversions & Formulas for comparing dB to Pa
1 Pa = 94dB
Pa = [10^(dB/20)]*.00002
dB = 20*log[Pa/.00002]

BhtZom3.jpg
post #135 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by its phillip View Post

Here's some information taken from an audioholics article:

Yeah, I came across the same. This makes you wonder why you'd want to average that way. Also, it looks like their argument is that you don't want to average at all because both ways are flawed.

Regardless, Josh averages dBs and it looks like Tom averages the Pa conversion. So in the 20-31.5Hz example, you are either biased towards the 20Hz number (Josh) or you're biased towards the 31.5Hz number (Tom).

So if we take a bunch of sealed systems on Data-Bass and convert the 20, 25 and 31.5Hz measurements to Pa before averaging, this is what we come up with (far right columns showing Pa average and the difference between the two):



The Pa averaged 20-31.5 is always higher when you do it that way (obviously), so to directly compare Tom's numbers to Josh's, you always have to subtract something. What exactly? We don't know since the numbers the average is comprised of are not shared.

It seems like it would make things more comparable if numbers were published by frequency and just left the averages out of it.
post #136 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Yeah, I came across the same. This makes you wonder why you'd want to average that way. Also, it looks like their argument is that you don't want to average at all because both ways are flawed.

Regardless, Josh averages dBs and it looks like Tom averages the Pa conversion. So in the 20-31.5Hz example, you are either biased towards the 20Hz number (Josh) or you're biased towards the 31.5Hz number (Tom).

So if we take a bunch of sealed systems on Data-Bass and convert the 20, 25 and 31.5Hz measurements to Pa before averaging, this is what we come up with (far right columns showing Pa average and the difference between the two):



The Pa averaged 20-31.5 is always higher when you do it that way (obviously), so to directly compare Tom's numbers to Josh's, you always have to subtract something. What exactly? We don't know since the numbers the average is comprised of are not shared.

It seems like it would make things more comparable if numbers were published by frequency and just left the averages out of it.

The differences you are seeing are like to due to variations, in equipment, environment , measuring orientation, differences in individual sub woofers, and a myriad of other small differences that tend to happen with measuring sub woofers in various places on various days. Even with averages there is a chance you will see differences. For most any difference of 0.5-3 db is possible as fair as measurement discrepancies go. If the differences are less than 1db that is about is good as we can expect. I wouldn't worry about such small differences.
post #137 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I'm sorry I have a hard time feeling bad for you. Seeing as your getting a sub that might well be the last sub you ever need... cool.gif

Its not bad waiting, its just that I got all these new movies waiting and my bros and my sister ask me all the time when will the setup be ready and i always tell them every week something different. They think im crazy for always making improvements and upgrading because it seems that my system is always down due to waiting for a particular piece of equipment. Now its like im down to the last thing and everything else is running real good. Even when i got my denon blueray 3313udci, $1000 player, it was defective and everyone was waiting to watch movies so it was another let down. I just got a replacement sent so it works great. I love the PSA company, it just seems like a long year getting a setup going in my room, then the more i learn, the more i find more mistakes. So far though ive got it all running great! Just have to get the triax in the mix and ill finally be able to enjoy everything smile.gif
post #138 of 3312
Imagine for example the Othorn-5100 and GJALLARHORN were commercial offerings with CEA average specs listed on their respective websites:

Othorn-5100
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 125.6dB

GJALLARHORN
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 124.4dB

Now, these were posted using the Pa conversion method. Customers draw conclusions as you would expect. For "Ultra-low bass" the Othorn has a slight advantage, but they are roughly identical.

Now wait a minute, the Gjallarhorn has a whopping +17dB advantage over the Othorn at 20Hz! No one would ever know.

It's not going to amount to this enormous disparity with sealed vs sealed systems, but you can see where the system is somewhat flawed. Averages are a poor way of comparing systems I think.
post #139 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Imagine for example the Othorn-5100 and GJALLARHORN were commercial offerings with CEA average specs listed on their respective websites:

Othorn-5100
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 125.6dB

GJALLARHORN
Ultra-low bass (20-31.5 Hz): 124.4dB

Now, these were posted using the Pa conversion method. Customers draw conclusions as you would expect. For "Ultra-low bass" the Othorn has a slight advantage, but they are roughly identical.

Now wait a minute, the Gjallarhorn has a whopping +17dB advantage over the Othorn at 20Hz! No one would ever know.

It's not going to amount to this enormous disparity with sealed vs sealed systems, but you can see where the system is somewhat flawed. Averages are a poor way of comparing systems I think.

I suggest if you want to keep discussing this issue. Make a new thread to debate the CEA-2010 bass standard While its interesting its not really PSA's issue. The CEA-2010 standard is not perfect but it gives customers at least some sense of a base line. Also Tom has mentioned they may send a Triax to Josh, eventually. But that's up to PSA.

But again the CEA-2010 standard is not within any individual companies control.
post #140 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Its not bad waiting, its just that I got all these new movies waiting and my bros and my sister ask me all the time when will the setup be ready and i always tell them every week something different. They think im crazy for always making improvements and upgrading because it seems that my system is always down due to waiting for a particular piece of equipment. Now its like im down to the last thing and everything else is running real good. Even when i got my denon blueray 3313udci, $1000 player, it was defective and everyone was waiting to watch movies so it was another let down. I just got a replacement sent so it works great. I love the PSA company, it just seems like a long year getting a setup going in my room, then the more i learn, the more i find more mistakes. So far though ive got it all running great! Just have to get the triax in the mix and ill finally be able to enjoy everything smile.gif

I know the feeling. But you also have one hell a system their. I bet that TV just rocks.....

Don't worry you'll be able to blow your friends and family away..... and then they will turn around and think your crazy for spending so much money.... even having seen how nice your system is.ROFL
post #141 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I know the feeling. But you also have one hell a system their. I bet that TV just rocks.....

Don't worry you'll be able to blow your friends and family away..... and then they will turn around and think your crazy for spending so much money.... even having seen how nice your system is.ROFL


Thanks, ive noticed my family has been way more interested in what ive been doing because they even completely stopped going to the movies just to wait for me to finish. We did watch world war z and star trek so far since ive been done and they loved it. I like having something cool where we can all sit down together since we work so much and my lil sister can enjoy since im raising her. Now im just going to wait for the triax and spend a day on sub placement, then its pacific rim! We all are so anxious to watch it!
post #142 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

I suggest if you want to keep discussing this issue. Make a new thread to debate the CEA-2010 bass standard While its interesting its not really PSA's issue. The CEA-2010 standard is not perfect but it gives customers at least some sense of a base line. Also Tom has mentioned they may send a Triax to Josh, eventually. But that's up to PSA.

But again the CEA-2010 standard is not within any individual companies control.

Half this thread has been discussing CEA-2010 and PSA's posted averages since page one.
post #143 of 3312
Its so funny because just like i was, they think you buy speakers and what not, then just hook em up and press play! They have no idea about speaker sensitivity, bass smoothing, nulls, speaker placement, wave cancelations, room resonance, ect. Its so funny!!!
post #144 of 3312
Received my Triax shipping number. Can't wait for it to arrive.
post #145 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcuron View Post

Received my Triax shipping number. Can't wait for it to arrive.

Lucky!!! I was hoping theyd get the numbers mixed up and that i would have yours. I should call them and be like " yes this is norcuron, i need to make a change of shipping address for my Triax please " biggrin.gif
post #146 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmambakila View Post

Lucky!!! I was hoping theyd get the numbers mixed up and that i would have yours. I should call them and be like " yes this is norcuron, i need to make a change of shipping address for my Triax please " biggrin.gif

LMAO....This has been a long wait..I am in Oregon so it will still take a while for that truck to drive across America....Go Ducks!!
post #147 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Half this thread has been discussing CEA-2010 and PSA's posted averages since page one.

Unfortunately yes, you all should go somewhere else and discuss numbers smile.gif
post #148 of 3312
Why, the thread is on page 5 and nobody has a triax. The numbers have been and are being discussed.

I agree with nfraso and it is obvious that more info is better than less. If you have the cea program and the averages, you have them by frequency. Its psa's choice whether to post them by frequency or not, and it would be better for the end user to have as much info as possible. I don't see the big deal in him saying this is a nice sub with 30mm+ drivers, and more detailed information would be beneficial.
post #149 of 3312
Right, and it should just be left at what PSA says until things can get measured and not compared to some other site and how they measure and then argue/debate how something should measure when that product isn't even available to measure.
post #150 of 3312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norcuron View Post

LMAO....This has been a long wait..I am in Oregon so it will still take a while for that truck to drive across America....Go Ducks!!

Man i live in wyoming so it looks like were off the map. Where are you wanting to place the triax in your setup and are you planning on using any other subs?
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