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Dolby Digital Plus and Netflix on Various AVRs - Page 3

post #61 of 288
Thread Starter 
It's discouraging to think that this slipped through the cracks. Netflix is about the only place that still uses DD+ though, other than HD-DVD back when so it doesn't surprise me that it was overlooked. Anyone have an HD-DVD to test with? Then we could rule out Netflix?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #62 of 288
I still have a Universal player around (plays both HD DVD and BD) but I don't have any Denon receiver. I never have any problem with DD+ on either HD DVD or Netflix with my Pioneer AVR though smile.gif
post #63 of 288
I have this same issue with my E300. Some Netflix DD+ movies have the issues, the OP described. Some movie DD+ movies do and some don't. Some are worse than others.

This doesn't happen with DD+ on Vudu, just Netflix.

Notably, Jack Reacher. This issue is all over this movie... and in some parts (when jack goes to the motel before the care chase scene) there is static in the center channel - like it's so hot it's clipping.

Again, some titles do it and some don't.

I'm streaming over my Roku 2 XS.

What are your guys' source devices? I know Netflix has different encodes (or maybe just muxes) for different devices.

I'll test it with another device soon.
post #64 of 288

All: Has anyone tried removing the center channel only? IE: 'Phantom' mode? I do not use a center speaker, just no use for one. Using a Denon 4311CI along with VERY revealing MartinLogan speakers in a 4.2 configuration, being fed from a ROKU2 XS, using a high tier, high speed line, hardwired thru a gigabit switch here. Use Netflix...ALOT. TV series, movies, originals. All in DD+ (when available). Sound is outstanding IMHO. Certainly nothing horrible as described in this thread. On the contrary, the audio has been exemplary. 

 

I haven't seen 'Jack Reacher' yet, tho it is in my queue. I will have to make time to watch it and listen for the issue(s) described in this thread.

post #65 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denon4311CI View Post

All: Has anyone tried removing the center channel only? IE: 'Phantom' mode? I do not use a center speaker, just no use for one. Using a Denon 4311CI along with VERY revealing MartinLogan speakers in a 4.2 configuration, being fed from a ROKU2 XS, using a high tier, high speed line, hardwired thru a gigabit switch here. Use Netflix...ALOT. TV series, movies, originals. All in DD+ (when available). Sound is outstanding IMHO. Certainly nothing horrible as described in this thread. On the contrary, the audio has been exemplary. 

I haven't seen 'Jack Reacher' yet, tho it is in my queue. I will have to make time to watch it and listen for the issue(s) described in this thread.

Yes, I actually set the mode to stereo, and the problem still happens (verified only the L and R speakers were in use with the "info" button)... so it's a decoding error

Watch Jack Reacher. It happens all over that movie... It's only in some movies though.

Who "fault" is it? I would guess Netflix because it's the only common denominator... or a common chip used in these receivers.

Netflix uses some odd or hardly used DD+ option that some chip maker overlooked when they designed their chips or Denon didn't bother to test when writing firmware... who knows...

Maybe this is the behavior of DD+ with packet loss - like video macro blocking, but is it happening from the stream or in the decoder.

But...

If you could just tell Netflix to do DD+ like xyz other service, the problem would go away. Why they just don't use 640 kbps DD for everyone is beyond me... some sort of half-assed DRM...

Now that I think about it, it might have to do with the Dialog normalization... which can't be turned off by turning off Dynamic Range Compression. Every time I fire up a NF DD+ track, the Denon shows the db normalization being applied...
Edited by umeng2002 - 1/5/14 at 3:25am
post #66 of 288
Quote:
 Every time I fire up a NF DD+ track, the Denon shows the db normalization being applied...

Should be shown anytime an input is changed or a new signal is introduced. And it is non-adjustable. 

Quote:
 Anyone have an HD-DVD to test with? Then we could rule out Netflix?

Yes. I have and still use a HD DVD A35 unit and about 300+ movies. Most recently for Christmas movies in DD+. Quite a few 'S' in Merry Christmas, and 'F' in fa la la la la....Clear, clean and crisp as a bell. 

post #67 of 288
Didn't this issue only rear it's head after Netflix started using their new encoding process? that is supposed to further compress the bitstream to supposedly yield identical results as the old encodes at a higher bitrates?

I had run across the issue a few months ago with the letter s and such. But it was on my Sony speaker bar and Denon 3808. Although I have not run across it in a while now. I checked out the nightmare before Christmas that someone said had an issue, and I'm not hearing any problems.
Edited by aaronwt - 1/5/14 at 7:11pm
post #68 of 288

I'm glad I found this thread.

 

I am having the same problem with some movies on Netflix.  I can re-create the issue on both my Roku 3 and PS3 (slim, the 2nd model) running on a Pioneer VSX-1019AH receiver.

 

When I switch the Netflix stream to stereo, I am not having any problems.  But with all or most of the 5.1/DD+ content I am getting very raspy 's' and 'th' and 'f' sounds, especially female voices.  It is very distorted or compressed sounding.  I haven't had this issue on any non-DD+ content, but I can't think of any DD+ content I've run outside of Netflix.  I haven't noticed any issues on other streaming services (Amazon) that use regular DD.

 

 

Here is a small audio clip from the movie Haywire (at around 58:10 into the movie) to demonstrate the effect I am hearing.  Sorry audio quality and additional compression (recorded with iPhone and uploaded to this vocaroo service I have never used before), but this is very close to what I am hearing from my center speaker.

 

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1ar18mtR2sX


Edited by ejfriis - 1/5/14 at 4:22pm
post #69 of 288
I'm still baffled why we are speculating on the cause when Denon admitted it was a bug, on their backlog, to be fixed with a future firmware update. I'm sure it's related to some change made on Netflix's end, but obviously it is an issue for the DD+ decoder on Denon gear, and they've acknowledged it as such and stated a future update would fix it.

[Edit: perhaps some players share the decoder. If Denon has outright admitted it is confirmed and an issue, and will be resolved in a future update, I suspect they have investigated the source streams and know what is being fed, and why it is as artifact filled as it is. It might be a common decoder chip/software leading to this.]
Edited by ormandj - 1/5/14 at 4:56pm
post #70 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by ormandj View Post

I'm still baffled why we are speculating on the cause when Denon admitted it was a bug, on their backlog, to be fixed with a future firmware update. I'm sure it's related to some change made on Netflix's end, but obviously it is an issue for the DD+ decoder on Denon gear, and they've acknowledged it as such and stated a future update would fix it.

[Edit: perhaps some players share the decoder. If Denon has outright admitted it is confirmed and an issue, and will be resolved in a future update, I suspect they have investigated the source streams and know what is being fed, and why it is as artifact filled as it is. It might be a common decoder chip/software leading to this.]
Where have they indicated the problem is on their end, and have they indicated which Denon models are affected?
Edited by keenan - 1/13/14 at 10:13am
post #71 of 288
The Denon AVRs use a different brand audio DSP chip made by Analog Devices called a Sharc..
I have no such Netflix decoding issues with my Yamaha or HK AVRs which use a TI DSP & Cirrus Logic DSPs.
The AVR brand gets the specific audio Dolby decoding algorithm directly from the DSP silcon maker, and then the entire AVR must be certified by Dolby. However the algorithim is supported by other software for compatibility with its bass manager and Audyssey Room EQ operation, and here the AVR brand is responsible for its software programming and final product certification by Dolby...
Though often simplified from a user's prospective, the software DSP programming is quite complex and it is very possible they have an incorrect/incompatible level which is causing a DSP clipping overload.. This should have been caught during the normal product validation process and could mean Denon will need a product firmware update to correct, since there are > 40 million Netflix users.. A very costly event, also considering all Denon AVRs in existing stock/inventories will need upgrading as well..

1 possible way to isolate the problem would be if one has a Smart TV that can process Netflix streams, set the TVs' audio decoder to output PCM and switch to Netflix. Next connect the TV's audio optical out to your Denon AVR..
What happens?
a. If the audio is kleen, points to an AVR's audio decoder issue
b. If the audio is still distorted, points to a Netflix audio encoding issue not an AVR problem

Just my $0.05... 👍😉
post #72 of 288
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The Denon AVRs use a different brand audio DSP chip made by Analog Devices called a Sharc..
I have no such Netflix decoding issues with my Yamaha or HK AVRs which use a TI DSP & Cirrus Logic DSPs.
The AVR brand gets the specific audio Dolby decoding algorithm directly from the DSP silcon maker, and then the entire AVR must be certified by Dolby. However the algorithim is supported by other software for compatibility with its bass manager and Audyssey Room EQ operation, and here the AVR brand is responsible for its software programming and final product certification by Dolby...
Though often simplified from a user's prospective, the software DSP programming is quite complex and it is very possible they have an incorrect/incompatible level which is causing a DSP clipping overload.. This should have been caught during the normal product validation process and could mean Denon will need a product firmware update to correct, since there are > 40 million Netflix users.. A very costly event, also considering all Denon AVRs in existing stock/inventories will need upgrading as well..
👍😉

The clipping makes a lot of sense. That could definitely be it. Analog Devices usually makes good stuff...this is bad news.

Anyone have a Smart TV that does Netflix to test this out?
post #73 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The Denon AVRs use a different brand audio DSP chip made by Analog Devices called a Sharc..
I have no such Netflix decoding issues with my Yamaha or HK AVRs which use a TI DSP & Cirrus Logic DSPs.
The AVR brand gets the specific audio Dolby decoding algorithm directly from the DSP silcon maker, and then the entire AVR must be certified by Dolby. However the algorithim is supported by other software for compatibility with its bass manager and Audyssey Room EQ operation, and here the AVR brand is responsible for its software programming and final product certification by Dolby...
Though often simplified from a user's prospective, the software DSP programming is quite complex and it is very possible they have an incorrect/incompatible level which is causing a DSP clipping overload.. This should have been caught during the normal product validation process and could mean Denon will need a product firmware update to correct, since there are > 40 million Netflix users.. A very costly event, also considering all Denon AVRs in existing stock/inventories will need upgrading as well..

1 possible way to isolate the problem would be if one has a Smart TV that can process Netflix streams, set the TVs' audio decoder to output PCM and switch to Netflix. Next connect the TV's audio optical out to your Denon AVR..
What happens?
a. If the audio is kleen, points to an AVR's audio decoder issue
b. If the audio is still distorted, points to a Netflix audio encoding issue not an AVR problem

Just my $0.05... 👍😉

Great explanation, that pretty much sums up theory on it.
post #74 of 288
But it isn't just denon. The S and F issue showed up on both my Sony and Denon receivers. I did run into again last night while I was watching Jack Reacher. It popped up streaming netflix with DD+ audio going through my Denon 3808 and also DD+ going through my Sony speaker bar.
post #75 of 288
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

But it isn't just denon. The S and F issue showed up on both my Sony and Denon receivers. I did run into again last night while I was watching Jack Reacher. It popped up streaming netflix with DD+ audio going through my Denon 3808 and also DD+ going through my Sony speaker bar.

Now that's interesting...maybe we are dealing with a Netflix encoding issue that's just overloading certain DSPs?
post #76 of 288
The sibilance with DD+ on Netflix has been driving me nuts. I have Pioneer VSX-9040TXH and can report this happens beyond Denon. I first noticed it watching Orange Is the New Black but have since heard it on other DD+ encoded streams. I get the same audio distortions at the high end streaming Netflix from Roku 3 and TiVo Premiere. The sibilance I'm hearing is just like the Vocaroo posted above.
post #77 of 288
I've been saying all along that it is a Netflix problem but people insist that it is a Denon problem. Obviously with it happening to Sony and Pioneer receivers too the problem is not with Denon.
post #78 of 288
Thread Starter 
@afrogt

There were *lots* of Denon users complaining about it though, but clearly it's an issue of whether or not you notice it more than likely!
post #79 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I've been saying all along that it is a Netflix problem but people insist that it is a Denon problem. Obviously with it happening to Sony and Pioneer receivers too the problem is not with Denon.

Not necessarily.. 😳
No such problem with my Yamaha & HK AVRs..
As I posted previously, when one uses all of the post-processing modes such as Multi-EQ, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ these use DSP resources (MIPs) which leaves less headroom for the native source stream...
And the siblience issue is exactly what digital clipping can sound like..
Also note that some Sony AVRs use the same Analog Devices DSP as does Denon...
Another suggestion would be for a couple Denon AVRs to turn OFF the mentioned Audyssey post-processing features and then try NetFlix...

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉
post #80 of 288
No problem with my Pioneer SC-1522 either.
post #81 of 288
I've got exactly the same issue with my Demon 1912. Just tried on the Xbox (which converts NF DD+ to DD) and don't have the same issue at all.

If Demon have found a fix I'm just hoping they release it on all amps, even the 2012 models and not just current ones.

I think its partly a bandwidth issue as pausing for a few seconds helps. Shame the Chromecast can't push out PCM.
post #82 of 288
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Not necessarily.. 😳
No such problem with my Yamaha & HK AVRs..
As I posted previously, when one uses all of the post-processing modes such as Multi-EQ, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ these use DSP resources (MIPs) which leaves less headroom for the native source stream...
And the siblience issue is exactly what digital clipping can sound like..
Also note that some Sony AVRs use the same Analog Devices DSP as does Denon...
Another suggestion would be for a couple Denon AVRs to turn OFF the mentioned Audyssey post-processing features and then try NetFlix...

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉

I always have these features turned on and don't experience issues with any other sound, including TrueHD and DTS HD...so why would this happen only on Dolby Digital +?

So odd.
post #83 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I've been saying all along that it is a Netflix problem but people insist that it is a Denon problem. Obviously with it happening to Sony and Pioneer receivers too the problem is not with Denon.

Not necessarily.. 😳
No such problem with my Yamaha & HK AVRs..
As I posted previously, when one uses all of the post-processing modes such as Multi-EQ, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ these use DSP resources (MIPs) which leaves less headroom for the native source stream...
And the siblience issue is exactly what digital clipping can sound like..
Also note that some Sony AVRs use the same Analog Devices DSP as does Denon...
Another suggestion would be for a couple Denon AVRs to turn OFF the mentioned Audyssey post-processing features and then try NetFlix...

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉

my onkyo has those same audyssey features and no problems. same goes for my denon 1611. i really think this is either a netflix issue or a shared faulty dsp chip in use across multiple brands, denon and sony at least.
post #84 of 288
Hello, I just want to add that I have been hearing these exact compression artifacts on high frequencies for months and its been driving me nuts. I am using a Denon AVR-989.
I definitely think it is something to do with how the Denon AVR decodes DD+. Anyways I disabled DD+ in the PS3 settings. And now it is just using Dolby Digital 5.1, and it sounds pretty great I think.
Whats the issue with just using DD 5.1 over DD+ ? nasty compression artifacts are gone and everything else seems to be the same. My surrounds and sub are working the same.

Something I'm overlooking ?
post #85 of 288
DD+ can be slightly higher quality than DD 5.1. These are not compression artifacts but decompression faults of the Denon.
post #86 of 288
There is alot of debate for this issue..
Denon is well aware of the situation and this thread..
It would be positive if their technical management staff would provide their response and solution...

I am in Las Vegas @ the CES and have a technical meeting scheduled with Dolby, knowing their engineers quite well I will raise this issue.
And I will advise back their response...

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉
post #87 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

There is alot of debate for this issue..
Denon is well aware of the situation and this thread..
It would be positive if their technical management staff would provide their response and solution...

I am in Las Vegas @ the CES and have a technical meeting scheduled with Dolby, knowing their engineers quite well I will raise this issue.
And I will advise back their response...

Just my $0.05.... 👍😉
Excellent, thank you.
post #88 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post


As I posted previously, when one uses all of the post-processing modes such as Multi-EQ, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ these use DSP resources (MIPs) which leaves less headroom for the native source stream...
And the siblience issue is exactly what digital clipping can sound like..
Also note that some Sony AVRs use the same Analog Devices DSP as does Denon...
Another suggestion would be for a couple Denon AVRs to turn OFF the mentioned Audyssey post-processing features and then try NetFlix...

 

I tried it in every mode yesterday; including Direct, matrix, stereo and disabling all processing; the issue always sounds the same (actually in Pure it sounds worse) turning "Compressed Audio Restorer" to high sounds best; but as far as I can tell this "blurs" the sound slightly to remove compression artifacts.

 

Weird thing was that the Nightmare before Xmas intro still didn't sound great in stereo, when that's the normal fix for it. So that intro might be a bit of a red herring. Although I tried it with Parks & Recreation which often has issues and I know it's an issue.


For anybody who says "People with good kit might notice it more" not quite right as it is that bad. My OH notices it...and she hates me pointing out anything like that normally.

post #89 of 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

As I posted previously, when one uses all of the post-processing modes such as Multi-EQ, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ these use DSP resources (MIPs) which leaves less headroom for the native source stream...

That might be intuitively clear to you but its not how digital signal processing generally works.

When a digital signal processing system runs out of processing cycles, you get clicks and pops and perhaps even long signal drop outs.

Everybody who has tried to listen to audio on a PC or Mac system that has internal queue blockages or runs out of cycles or memory, or has a balky hard drive has OJT in this matter.

Digital clipping and timbre changes are guaranteed to not be the consequences of a digital audio signal processing system running out of resources. It generally doesn't take any more CPU power to process digital black than digital FS.

This is why knowledgeable grant little credibility to posts by people who ascribe timbre changes, or changes in dynamics, or changes in clarity or sound staging to some unintended change in the digital domain. It can't happen.

Furthermore the load associated with digital signal processing strongly tends to be consistent. If it is broken at all, it tends to be broken all the time. You need something complex such as communications link over a large shared link or a whole operational PC to get things that come and go. The load on a DSP in an AVR isn't that way. Many of the digital processes in an AVR run on dedicated hardware.
Edited by arnyk - 1/7/14 at 6:41am
post #90 of 288

good . I just turned off Dolby Digital Plus support on my PS3 and this forces it to Dolby Digital 5.1 instead. I'll be going Yamaha or Onkyo next receiver I think.

GBRzLi

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