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New SVS Isolation feet - Page 3

post #61 of 122
Ed-

Thanks for your insight on all of this. Much appreciated.
post #62 of 122
Ed, Thanks for that well written explanation! Definitely helps me understand SVS approach and target with this product! smile.gif
post #63 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

SVS claim they have developed it "with extensive accelerometer and acoustic measurements", so then let them provide the data and prove it, or let them be the subject of ridicule. Then again SVS is selling a 2 m sub RCA cable for $30 with the pitch:
Quote:
SoundPath audio cables deliver a spacious soundstage, solid three-dimensional imaging, sparkling and airy highs, an uncolored and neutral midrange and tight articulate bass
so any serious data backing their claims might not be forthcoming.
I'm a big fan of data but in this particular case I think SVS would be doing themselves a financial disservice were they to disclose the hard data for the product they spent time and money developing. After all, they are a company that operates to make a profit, no?

The product though is based on sound scientific principles and they could, without financially shooting themselves in the foot, disclose a generic graph. By adding a mechanical compliance they have in effect introduced a second order filter no different in the general sense from an automotive shock absorber, vibration absorbers as you might find in chain saws, mattreses, or isolation type devices used to attenuate vibrations in fields such as electron microscopy.

If you were to plot a graph with vibration intensity on the Y-axis and durometer reading of the product on the X-axis, you would get a graph that somewhat resembled a 'U'. The understanding is simple. With low durometer values the sub fully compresses the product with neglible attenuation of the frequencies transmitted to the floor. As the product becomes harder/stiffer there is now some bounce to it which allows for some second order filtering where the vibrations are attenuated by being converted to heat within the product. Increase the hardness even more and it becomes a poorer second order filter.

As to the cable comment, I don't think you're reading it carefully enough. The cable is delivering though qualities because the signal is passing through it. The qualities themselves are a consequence of the speaker and how well it's placed in the room. Good speakers placed well and with good recordngs do convey a sense of spatial qualities such as localization in one's head. SVS is not saying the cables have some unique property peculiar to them that permits this. It's just ad/marketing copy. Kal Rubinson, I believe, once wrote that when using a particular cable in his system he found that there was no cable he had ever used that was quieter. Some might read that think that cable was unique in this regard. However, the correct interpretation is that the cable being used was just like every other cable, they were all equally quiet.
post #64 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

OK – I waded through this thread and have a few comments. I’ll preface them by saying I’m not interested in changing anyone’s opinion over this product or its efficacy – nor do I want to come off as being defensive.

We’ve received literally hundreds of customer comments over the years all basically stating the same thing: “I moved my subwoofer from a wooden floor over an open space to a concrete floor in a similar size room - and the reduction in felt/tactile vibration was huge. The couch/chairs don’t vibrate nearly as much anymore”. This is a massive body of anecdotal evidence, and anyone who has experienced it first-hand knows it’s not a placebo effect.

I’ve also witnessed (standing in the basement staring up at the floor) a pair of PC13-Ultra create obvious flexing of a well-constructed wooden floor with standard construction joists. The word ‘trampoline’ came to mind…..

To flatly state a subwoofer’s only potential medium of vibration transmission is acoustic air pressure - is simply not true. Transmission of tactile vibration is often significant in many subwoofer applications – some people love this effect, and some hate it and attempt to reduce it. The huge popularity of isolation platforms and the attendant reduction in tactile vibration transmission they provide is more than sufficient evidence there is a real need for these types of products. I will unequivocally state this product will not alter/reduce any objectionable artifacts which are exclusively attributable to acoustic air pressure from the subwoofer, and naturally neither will an isolation platform.

We started this project with the basic premise of offering a discreet alternative to visually obtrusive and unattractive (albeit effective) isolation platforms. As a member of the design team, my only requirement was that this product needed to provide a significant reduction in the transmission of tactile vibration – or it wasn’t getting to market.

Using an accelerometer mounted to the flooring near the subwoofer, and test frequencies within the typical subwoofer pass band - we measured the levels of vibration transmitted through a standard wooden floor over an open space – which is basically the target application for isolation products like this. This is not a COTS hard rubber foot. We varied the rubber durometer (i.e., Shore Hardness scale) and the foot OD, ID, height and even the shape/curvature of the foot bottom. All of these variables had a pronounced effect on the level of transmitted vibration, and the final design ultimately proved much more effective than our standard small, high-durometer screw-in foot.

Also, anyone who suspects SVS is making a big profit off these isolation feet is wrong. The anodized steel shell, custom-tooled low durometer foot, and all the included hardware (the 6 foot system ships with 30 (!) machine screws) add up - and frankly our margins are super slim. We brought this product to market as an affordable and cool way to engage our customer base, and offer a viable solution to clunky low-WAF isolation platforms – and I think we succeeded.

Much appreciated for this.
post #65 of 122
So these isolation products, and perhaps the Auralex lineup, do help on bouncy wood floors? Any other situation?
post #66 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm a big fan of data but in this particular case I think SVS would be doing themselves a financial disservice were they to disclose the hard data for the product they spent time and money developing. After all, they are a company that operates to make a profit, no?

The product though is based on sound scientific principles and they could, without financially shooting themselves in the foot, disclose a generic graph. By adding a mechanical compliance they have in effect introduced a second order filter no different in the general sense from an automotive shock absorber, vibration absorbers as you might find in chain saws, mattreses, or isolation type devices used to attenuate vibrations in fields such as electron microscopy.

If you were to plot a graph with vibration intensity on the Y-axis and durometer reading of the product on the X-axis, you would get a graph that somewhat resembled a 'U'. The understanding is simple. With low durometer values the sub fully compresses the product with neglible attenuation of the frequencies transmitted to the floor. As the product becomes harder/stiffer there is now some bounce to it which allows for some second order filtering where the vibrations are attenuated by being converted to heat within the product. Increase the hardness even more and it becomes a poorer second order filter.

As to the cable comment, I don't think you're reading it carefully enough. The cable is delivering though qualities because the signal is passing through it. The qualities themselves are a consequence of the speaker and how well it's placed in the room. Good speakers placed well and with good recordngs do convey a sense of spatial qualities such as localization in one's head. SVS is not saying the cables have some unique property peculiar to them that permits this. It's just ad/marketing copy. Kal Rubinson, I believe, once wrote that when using a particular cable in his system he found that there was no cable he had ever used that was quieter. Some might read that think that cable was unique in this regard. However, the correct interpretation is that the cable being used was just like every other cable, they were all equally quiet.

Wow Chu, you are usually so hawkish in policing these audio companies' integrity, but you are giving SVS a free pass? If the product is based on sound scientific principles, that should be easy to demonstrate. Why wouldn't they post any data to back up their claims? So we should accept these companies claims at face value only when we happen like these companies? And your defense of the cable sales pitch is pretty thin. They could simply say it works, but no, they launch into a bunch of audiophile rubbish buzzwords. But now audiophile rubbish is OK, because under a certain interpretation it is not incorrect? What did you do with the real Chu, imposter!
post #67 of 122
12.50 per foot is not bad.
post #68 of 122
I suspect most have their minds made up regardless of "Audiophile"words or data to back it up ! which means you won't buy the product ! and that's ok but keep in mind there are some willing to try it and if it works to their liking that's ok to. Not like its a no return policy.So why are you guys asking for more info that wont satisfy your personal disposistions on things you have no intrest in?
post #69 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I suspect most have their minds made up regardless of "Audiophile"words or data to back it up ! which means you won't buy the product ! and that's ok but keep in mind there are some willing to try it and if it works to their liking that's ok to. Not like its a no return policy.So why are you guys asking for more info that wont satisfy your personal disposistions on things you have no intrest in?

You do realize you're on the internet right? biggrin.gif
post #70 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

So why are you guys asking for more info that wont satisfy your personal disposistions on things you have no intrest in?
I'm not asking for anything personally. My comments are merely a counterpoint to unsubstantiated advertising claims. Let the consumer decide who to believe. And, no offense to Ed, but they still are unsubstantiated claims. It's one thing to say 'we did this and that' and it's another entirely to show the measured results.
post #71 of 122
Who knows? Maybe someday I'll have such a floor. I don't have any issues where my subs need isolation currently. I do wonder about any actual science and measurements to support the isolation thing (and I suppose some specs on the environments it is likely to be more effective in). Doubt I'll ever want to buy a cable from them but if I were buying a sub from them and I needed a cable I might find easier to simply have them ship it with the sub. The price is 12.50/ft at the short length but does improve to about 1.25 on the long length fwiw....
post #72 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I'm not asking for anything personally. My comments are merely a counterpoint to unsubstantiated advertising claims. Let the consumer decide who to believe. And, no offense to Ed, but they still are unsubstantiated claims. It's one thing to say 'we did this and that' and it's another entirely to show the measured results.

Well I think it's time to prove the claims Ed objective data ... No doubt your word, but a professional palabrade doubt the other, show me some degree of resentment (in some way).

Nothing SVS does not need to prove anything, because everything he says is fully met.
post #73 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Who knows? Maybe someday I'll have such a floor. I don't have any issues where my subs need isolation currently. I do wonder about any actual science and measurements to support the isolation thing (and I suppose some specs on the environments it is likely to be more effective in). Doubt I'll ever want to buy a cable from them but if I were buying a sub from them and I needed a cable I might find easier to simply have them ship it with the sub. The price is 12.50/ft at the short length but does improve to about 1.25 on the long length fwiw....

I'll keep my seven dollar 10' cable that does the same thing.biggrin.gif
post #74 of 122
Quote:
Wow Chu, you are usually so hawkish in policing these audio companies' integrity, but you are giving SVS a free pass? If the product is based on sound scientific principles, that should be easy to demonstrate. Why wouldn't they post any data to back up their claims? So we should accept these companies claims at face value only when we happen like these companies? And your defense of the cable sales pitch is pretty thin. They could simply say it works, but no, they launch into a bunch of audiophile rubbish buzzwords. But now audiophile rubbish is OK, because under a certain interpretation it is not incorrect? What did you do with the real Chu, imposter!
I knew that was coming, shadyj! Having worked in the past with mitigating the effects of floor born vibrations on fairly sensitive scientific instruments including the deleterious effects that can occur when a building is in close proximity to underground subway trains in NYC, I didn't find it difficult to imagine the reverse scenario. I understand that you'd like to see some data so tell me just what data you'd like to see SVS present? How detailed should it be? Is it reasonable to expect such disclosure as might be present in a published research paper? If you can outline just what you're looking for maybe they or others will be able to present something. BTW, I don't think everyone would benefit from the product just as I don't think every woman will benefit from a thong.
post #75 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Mullen View Post

OK – I waded through this thread and have a few comments. I’ll preface them by saying I’m not interested in changing anyone’s opinion over this product or its efficacy – nor do I want to come off as being defensive.

We’ve received literally hundreds of customer comments over the years all basically stating the same thing: “I moved my subwoofer from a wooden floor over an open space to a concrete floor in a similar size room - and the reduction in felt/tactile vibration was huge. The couch/chairs don’t vibrate nearly as much anymore”. This is a massive body of anecdotal evidence, and anyone who has experienced it first-hand knows it’s not a placebo effect.

I’ve also witnessed (standing in the basement staring up at the floor) a pair of PC13-Ultra create obvious flexing of a well-constructed wooden floor with standard construction joists. The word ‘trampoline’ came to mind…..

To flatly state a subwoofer’s only potential medium of vibration transmission is acoustic air pressure - is simply not true. Transmission of tactile vibration is often significant in many subwoofer applications – some people love this effect, and some hate it and attempt to reduce it. The huge popularity of isolation platforms and the attendant reduction in tactile vibration transmission they provide is more than sufficient evidence there is a real need for these types of products. I will unequivocally state this product will not alter/reduce any objectionable artifacts which are exclusively attributable to acoustic air pressure from the subwoofer, and naturally neither will an isolation platform.

We started this project with the basic premise of offering a discreet alternative to visually obtrusive and unattractive (albeit effective) isolation platforms. As a member of the design team, my only requirement was that this product needed to provide a significant reduction in the transmission of tactile vibration – or it wasn’t getting to market.

Using an accelerometer mounted to the flooring near the subwoofer, and test frequencies within the typical subwoofer pass band - we measured the levels of vibration transmitted through a standard wooden floor over an open space – which is basically the target application for isolation products like this. This is not a COTS hard rubber foot. We varied the rubber durometer (i.e., Shore Hardness scale) and the foot OD, ID, height and even the shape/curvature of the foot bottom. All of these variables had a pronounced effect on the level of transmitted vibration, and the final design ultimately proved much more effective than our standard small, high-durometer screw-in foot.

Also, anyone who suspects SVS is making a big profit off these isolation feet is wrong. The anodized steel shell, custom-tooled low durometer foot, and all the included hardware (the 6 foot system ships with 30 (!) machine screws) add up - and frankly our margins are super slim. We brought this product to market as an affordable and cool way to engage our customer base, and offer a viable solution to clunky low-WAF isolation platforms – and I think we succeeded.

Good to see you jump in and clarify this Ed. Anyone who's dealt with powerful, front firing subwoofers in varying environments has observed the same effect. Some seem to be reading more into descriptions than are really there. Acoustic excitation of windows, walls and the like won't change, and occur even with naturally inert designs (opposed or geometric cancelling). Speakers and subwoofers alike will mechanically couple to a suspended wood floor, and occasionally even a suspended concrete slab at even lower frequencies. Sometimes the result is entirely tactile, sometimes the floor reacts like a huge drum with very little motion but very perceptible effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

So why are you guys asking for more info that wont satisfy your personal disposistions on things you have no intrest in?
I'm not asking for anything personally. My comments are merely a counterpoint to unsubstantiated advertising claims. Let the consumer decide who to believe. And, no offense to Ed, but they still are unsubstantiated claims. It's one thing to say 'we did this and that' and it's another entirely to show the measured results.

To entirely dismiss mechanical vibration as poor engineering is rather naive. I've built 200 lb subwoofers with large front mounted drivers sitting on carpet without feet which had enough fore-aft motion to audible rock on the floor. Sure, feet will eliminate the noise, but not the forces. We are not generally talking about vibration from wall flexing, but rather from reactive forces from 150-600g moving assemblies vibrating 1-3" back and forth.

Mechanical isolation is a well understood engineering task described rather clearly in Ed's response regarding selection of correct hardness. If someone has a case where they notice a clear difference with the feet installed or an isolation pad installed, a before/after measurement isn't hard to compare. Acoustic differences will be very subtle, but simply resting a microphone on a seat top or floor will usually pick up enough to show a difference. I often have enthusiasts use this simple test to set delays for seat shakers, and it's easy to see changes in level and time of excitation.
post #76 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

I've built 200 lb subwoofers with large front mounted drivers sitting on carpet without feet which had enough fore-aft motion to audible rock on the floor. Sure, feet will eliminate the noise, but not the forces. We are not generally talking about vibration from wall flexing, but rather from reactive forces from 150-600g moving assemblies vibrating 1-3" back and forth.
How does that jibe with this claim?
'fewer complaints from adjacent neighbors in apartments and townhouses. It’s the next best thing to sound-proofing!'
If it's capable of achieving this then SVS would have measured results showing the reduction in SPL in adjacent apartments/townhouses with these feet versus a plain old set of rubber feet. In fact, it would be such a miraculous result that I'd expect to see them present it at the next AES convention.
post #77 of 122
It's not so much a claim as it is ad copy. They didn't say it was soundproofing, merely that given certain types of floors, it's capable of attenuating mechanically coupled vibrations. People with sound systems will still find ways to piss off their neighbors. I think I'll shave withe Gillette, the best a man can get and later have a Snapple made from the best ingredients on earth.
post #78 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

It's not so much a claim as it is ad copy. They didn't say it was soundproofing, merely that given certain types of floors, it's capable of attenuating mechanically coupled vibrations. People with sound systems will still find ways to piss off their neighbors. I think I'll shave withe Gillette, the best a man can get and later have a Snapple made from the best ingredients on earth.

don't forget the Xanax prior to bedtime...biggrin.gif
post #79 of 122
OK Folks.....I took a break from this nonsense long enough to asses my pair of new SVS SoundPath Feet for our beloved SB-13's,

In our 14x23 room with a Music-only system over built-up/suspended flooring....the reduction in vibration transmitted to the room and it's noisy contents has
been quite substantial! My Wife & I are simply hearing MORE of our Music, and far less contribution from Cabinets and their Contents, Picture Frames, etc.

Anyone who's ever seen, or attempted to MOVE an SVS Subwoofer could attest to the Massiveness of their build, thus...my room seemed to be the wink link, NOT the Subs!

I dropped $100 on Two (2) Pairs of these "Shoes", and to be perfectly honest, and after seeing for myself that they really helped me out, and defeated some buzzes and rattles that I myself wasn't having a great deal of luck resolving....

I would buy them again tomorrow!

My Wife and I have been on a Crusade of sorts to get the LEAST contaminated sound we can reasonably get from the space in which we have to work. To that end, The Soundpaths were a welcome addition to our room, and I could recommend them to anyone.

Two Thumbs Up SVS! Thanks for the Assist!

CV
Edited by CV580DRVR - 10/14/13 at 4:52pm
post #80 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by xx View Post

I understand the idea between "airborne" energy in the form of soundwaves, but what about the raw mechanical energy of a powerful sub being transmitted through the structure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

With a well designed and constructed sub for all intents and purposes there isn't any.

Pure 100% bullsh**. You are either lying through your teeth or you are really that ignorant to reality. Go take a physics class; you might learn something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I'm not asking for anything personally. My comments are merely a counterpoint to unsubstantiated advertising claims. Let the consumer decide who to believe. And, no offense to Ed, but they still are unsubstantiated claims. It's one thing to say 'we did this and that' and it's another entirely to show the measured results.
Then why don't you provide proof that they have no effect on floating wood floors, o wise one? You can't. You're one to talk about 'unsubstantiated claims'. rolleyes.gif
Edited by gts007 - 10/17/13 at 10:47am
post #81 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post


Pure 100% bullsh**. You are either lying through your teeth or you are really that ignorant to reality. Go take a physics class; you might learn something.

How does that sound Pure 100% bullsh**?

I think you've never tried DIY route or run any simulations in WinISD/Unibox programs. You completely missed the keywords "well designed and constructed" from Bill's statement. A well designed + well constructed box doesn't resonate. If it does; then either it is not well designed or not well constructed.
Edited by braveheart123 - 10/17/13 at 12:10pm
post #82 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post


Pure 100% bullsh**. You are either lying through your teeth or you are really that ignorant to reality. Go take a physics class; you might learn something.

How does that sound Pure 100% bullsh**?

I think you've never tried DIY route or run any simulations in WinISD/Unibox programs. You completely missed the keywords "well designed and constructed" from Bill's statement. A well designed + well constructed box doesn't resonate. If it does; then it is not well constructed, though designed well.

I'd like to see gts007's physics credentials first smile.gif

So Mark Seaton's boxes weren't well constructed in his example? Is that one reason why Mark went to the dual opposed design? Or is it really dependent on poorly constructed homes/apartments?
post #83 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gts007 View Post


I think you've never tried DIY route or run any simulations in WinISD/Unibox programs. You completely missed the keywords "well designed and constructed" from Bill's statement. A well designed + well constructed box doesn't resonate. If it does; then either it is not well designed or not well constructed.

You can certainly create a box with no perceptible cabinet vibration at low frequencies, but enough moving mass and driver Xmax to create fore-aft rocking with front mounted drivers. A front driver w/ rear PR such as some of the Sunfire and Earthquake designs create even more violent fore-aft motion, regardless of the rigidity of the cabinet. When on a concrete slab you won't notice this as an issue so long as there are some feet to keep it from actually rocking back and forth creating a tapping on the floor (I've witnessed this more than a few times). When that same subwoofer is put on a wood floor over joists it *can* pick up the fore-aft mechanical forces and cause vibrations in the structure which can easily transmit or be noticed in connected spaces. Acoustic energy pumped into the room and leaking through walls and floor will NOT be affected by such isolation devices, and as Chu said, the add copy is a little weak on such clarification, but I doubt Ed is writing the add copy. wink.gif
Edited by Mark Seaton - 10/17/13 at 3:11pm
post #84 of 122
Time to have some Chock Full O'Nuts, better coffee a billionaire's money can't buy.
post #85 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Time to have some Chock Full O'Nuts, better coffee a billionaire's money can't buy.

I fondly remember Chock Full O'Nuts this way:


I don't remember it being very good coffee....did that change in the last 30 years?
post #86 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Time to have some Chock Full O'Nuts, better coffee a billionaire's money can't buy.

Of course some just need their Kopi Luwak:
post #87 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Time to have some Chock Full O'Nuts, better coffee a billionaire's money can't buy.

That jingle has been in my head since my earliest memories, and all my life I've wondered what the lyrics actually said (I only ever understood the bit about the Heaaavenly Coffee) Thank you so much.
post #88 of 122
Years ago the jingle said millionaire but what with inflation and all... The coffee still sucks but now there are more crappy variants to choose from.
post #89 of 122
Ha!
post #90 of 122
Folks!

Several weeks, and many, many hours of listening into the whole situation...with my young Son "Conducting" Cello at the Dinner Table.....I profess that the SVS Soundpath Isolation feet have been a Wonderful Success in our home. Built up, Suspended flooring, and a House FULL of rattley bits.....

SVS pulled the plug on my "Wack-a-Rattle" game, and I can pay attention to the music, and NOT some rattling object.

Success!!!!

CV
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