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DIY Sub Builders, Check Out This Video...

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 

Before this interview began Paul Hales, Scott Wilkinson, and I had a discussion about the DIY Speakers and Subs forum. Often there is heated debate about the performance and value offered by DIY. Take a gander at this video and let me know what you think...

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1493055/pro-audio-technology-at-cedia-2013


Edited by imagic - 10/2/13 at 11:08am
post #2 of 36
Seems cool.
Though I don't really understand his point in regards to driver FS.
Is he implying drivers with lower FS don't have enough restoring force to be reliable?
post #3 of 36
Well, the driver is likely PD24 or whatever, from Precision Devices.

If that's the driver, it's a ~30hz Fs, 6" VC beast, that's been around for at least 10 years. Turbo commissioned them for their legendary horn loaded 124 sub. You do encounter Turbo stuff in the US, especially install stuff. But I'd say touring systems from Turbo are more prevalent outside the US.

Superbly capable.


Mark, I'm unsure what you're after, .. the infra comments?
post #4 of 36
Didn't see your discussion and I watched the video here. I don't see a question or anything. Everything said in the video is accurate.

What's up?
post #5 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Well, the driver is likely PD24 or whatever, from Precision Devices.

If that's the driver, it's a ~30hz Fs, 6" VC beast, that's been around for at least 10 years. Turbo commissioned them for their legendary horn loaded 124 sub. You do encounter Turbo stuff in the US, especially install stuff. But I'd say touring systems from Turbo are more prevalent outside the US.

Superbly capable.


Mark, I'm unsure what you're after, .. the infra comments?

I believe it's this one?

http://www.precision-devices.com/Product-Details/PD2450

But yeah I'm not sure about the comments either.
post #6 of 36
It means out systems that can play 5hz at reference is equal to $20k retail! At least. That sub can play how loud? I wonder how the OS compares or even better the GH which is half as much.
post #7 of 36
Thread Starter 

I was curious about several points - the prevalence of infrasonic content, the durability of a driver playing well under the Fs, and of course whether this subwoofer is really worth $10,000, being that I felt inside it and the ports were at best a foot long—there's nothing sophisticated about it, not like the stuff I've seen in the DIY forum. 

 

I brought up the AVS master list of bass in movies but he didn't want to hear anything about it.

During the demo, I felt the "buzz" I feel at car audio demos. I never felt that ominous "bottomless bass" that I hear in better systems, including at that show. It never distorted, but that's about it in terms of wow factor, by my standards.

I did want to know which driver that was, so I could model it in some other enclosures.

 


Edited by imagic - 10/2/13 at 9:52am
post #8 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

It means out systems that can play 5hz at reference is equal to $20k retail! At least. That sub can play how loud? I wonder how the OS compares or even better the GH which is half as much.

 

That's what I'm ultimately getting at. The press "oohed and aahed" at the 110 Decibel demo. I was more than bored, I was wondering what those poor souls would do if they ever stepped into a DID GTG.

post #9 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Didn't see your discussion and I watched the video here. I don't see a question or anything. Everything said in the video is accurate.

What's up?

 

Sorry... I should have been more clear. Our discussion prior to taping this video led to Scott's line of questioning, which was about the value of infrasonic content. I mostly wanted impressions on that approach, versus the typical AVS approach towards flat extension, as deep as is practical.

 

I certainly thought what Paul said was technically accurate, except for the value of being able to play below 20Hz.
 


Edited by imagic - 10/2/13 at 10:02am
post #10 of 36
"infrasonic response wasn't a design objective"

yeah, this will send the usuals screaming.

Guy makes way too much sense and I'm certain it's an off the charts performer in most regards...albeit a pricey option.

I won't even get into the value of "infrasonic content" and the .0003% of movie and music content it represents. And this is coming from a guy with a system capable of producing plenty of it.

thanks for the video.

James
post #11 of 36
Thread Starter 

Scott is writing up the demo, which we both attended. Should be posted soon...

 

post #12 of 36
ah, he is just a salesman trying to sell his product, which is nothing more than ported cab with a decent driver.

$10k? well, if folks want to pay it, who is to stop them? he will retort, "everybody knows that you get what you pay for...real gear costs real money!" meh...

you can get a b&c 18sw115 for about $500 retail and two of them are probably in the ballpark with this 24" driver but maybe with higher power handling because of the larger effective size coil they would have.

$1k in drivers + $300 enclosure = $1300. one markup = $2k, two markups = $3k. Seems that is about where the market should price this sub. Probably won't be flying off the shelf at $10k, but with that much profit per unit, don't have to sell many...i suppose.
post #13 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

ah, he is just a salesman trying to sell his product, which is nothing more than ported cab with a decent driver.

$10k? well, if folks want to pay it, who is to stop them? he will retort, "everybody knows that you get what you pay for...real gear costs real money!" meh...

you can get a b&c 18sw115 for about $500 retail and two of them are probably in the ballpark with this 24" driver but maybe with higher power handling because of the larger effective size coil they would have.

$1k in drivers + $300 enclosure = $1300. one markup = $2k, two markups = $3k. Seems that is about where the market should price this sub. Probably won't be flying off the shelf at $10k, but with that much profit per unit, don't have to sell many...i suppose.

He's not a salesman—Paul designed that sub, he is the chief speaker designer for Pro Audio Technology.

post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I certainly thought what Paul said was technically accurate, except for the value of being able to play below 20Hz.
It was accurate in that respect as well, where professional systems are concerned. Pro sound systems are designed to play loud in large spaces, and to do so without systems that are impractically large requiring impractical amounts of power going below 25Hz, let alone 20Hz, isn't a consideration. In HT, where spaces are small enough that high sensitivity isn't a requirement and cabin gain will fill in below 20Hz, the situation is totally different. As for the price, again, it's pro sound. With $500k being the price of a relatively modest pro-touring rig, for up to only 10,000 seats or so, $10k boxes aren't the exception, they're the rule.
post #15 of 36
"He's not a salesman"

lol. he's pitching a commodity driver in a simple ported cab and making it sound like it is something worth $10k? he's a salesman. :-)~
post #16 of 36
For those unaware, these aren't pro touring boxes. These are home cinema products, albeit nice ones.

At $10k, and the market they're serving, the perceived "wow" factor alone will sell these in that segment. Paying a team to build, market, and distribute an extremely robust "high end"* type cabinet, with a $1300 driver, with in house markups at least 100%, a layer of distributors/dealers with similar margins, it's easy to approach the $10k point real quick. That's all mere speculation, but I'm guessing not far off, ... and I have zero experience in any aspect of pro sales whatsoever, so YMMV.

*(Hales is known for his attn. to detail entirely inert build quality cabs, he retained that philosophy, but decided to switch to high SPL designs while listening to live band at Disney)

The image up in post #11, those mains are the coveted BMS coaxial, in a DSP optimized three way.

I've experienced those mains/DSP, mated to their other top end subs.
post #17 of 36
"For those unaware, these aren't pro touring boxes. These are home cinema products, albeit nice ones."

in all fairness though, he was talking about a client base that would pound on them constantly, such as in a pro cinema. that was when he mentioned that a driver with higher compliance would lead to failure.
post #18 of 36
No need to make this into an infrasonic war. It is a high spl 22hz ported sub for $9500? I guess this topic is in the wrong thread because here we have GH's which would have more output for $1500. Even ID subs like the OS would have more output or at least equal to it. It is just an upgrade over the usual JBL 18 inch ported subs for $1000-$1500. Nevermind the sub, I like the speaker next to it! Of course JBL's are much cheaper. These don't look like HT solutions but cinema solutions build course we would put these in the HT.
post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

For those unaware, these aren't pro touring boxes. These are home cinema products, albeit nice ones..
The way he was talking I got the impression they were for pro applications, which includes theatrical, because that's where a 99dB sensitive box with a 22Hz f3 and $10k price tag makes sense. If they are aimed at the HT market then between the price and the lack of below 20Hz capability for that price they may be barking up the wrong tree.
post #20 of 36
So I was just able to actually watch the video. I'm a "space head" as they like to call me? Or did he mean "Bass head" I guess I am not offended either way but I'd love Paul's input on the shadow project? My guess he would think Utterly useless to be a good term for it.... Well, to each his own right? I didn't travel this road with minimal expectations. Honestly he makes excellent points and even at 110dB on a track with low distortion, that is enough to impress 9/10 folks there even at that conference. You think 9/10 people think Bose are bee's knees, that 10% aim for more via other impressive and much higher quality systems. Out of that 10%, 9/10 don't go the lengths we do around here for distortion free, efficient systems, so now we are at a total of 1% of the overall population. Taking even a step further to those of us incorporating multi-sub optimized and in most cases aesthetically compromised setups, I would say that overall percentage dips even further, say respectively even 1/3 to 1/5th of that 1%. Gentlemen, I am grateful to be in such an elite class of "Space-Heads" I must say biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Now keep on keepin' on fellas!!!!!
post #21 of 36
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post


The way he was talking I got the impression they were for pro applications, which includes theatrical, because that's where a 99dB sensitive box with a 22Hz f3 and $10k price tag makes sense. If they are aimed at the HT market then between the price and the lack of below 20Hz capability for that price they may be barking up the wrong tree.

 

Paul was talking home theater, and that was the context of the demo... not commercial theater or concerts. We listened to two of those units in a room designed to seat about twenty people. I agree it would make total sense for commercial applications.

post #22 of 36
With comments such as "infrasonic response was not a design object", "our customers don't know about the specs, wouldn't worry about the specs" and "wouldn't care about sub 20Hz bass" I'm a bit uncertain how that thing could be classified for HT usage. Music yes, but it seems rather disingenuous for Scott to state that only going down to 22Hz is "perfectly fine". Pro Audio Technology's market may be for folks who want extraordinarily loud music capability -- and that's perfectly fine -- but this doesn't strike me as a true HT sub. A theater sub perhaps, but not a home theater sub.

I'd love to see that driver though. It must look like a manhole cover with a magnet attached... eek.gif
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

The way he was talking I got the impression they were for pro applications, which includes theatrical, because that's where a 99dB sensitive box with a 22Hz f3 and $10k price tag makes sense. If they are aimed at the HT market then between the price and the lack of below 20Hz capability for that price they may be barking up the wrong tree.

I got the same vibe the way he was talking. Subs are built in and have no access at times........keep amps in racks ect ect.

Either way when it comes down to 10K I would lean towards the DSL 221. BUT I would prefer to DIY.
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I got the same vibe the way he was talking. Subs are built in and have no access at times........keep amps in racks ect ect.

Either way when it comes down to 10K I would lean towards the DSL 221. BUT I would prefer to DIY.


Yes a dual 21 inch tapped horn would certainly have the spl advantage, not sure about size though.
post #25 of 36
"At $10k, and the market they're serving, the perceived "wow" factor alone will sell these in that segment."

yeah...but it would be more "wow factor" to have a hundred of these little guys, i think:

http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-1262w-1200-Watt-High-Performance/dp/B0028AYIXK

with a single watt per driver, full reference would be achieved. :-)

imagine how funny it would be two guys each spend $10k on subs. one guy pulls back curtain to reveal his pro audio technology sub. has big grin on face. second guys pulls back his curtain and reveals wall of 100 subs. first guy facepalms so hard knocks himself out.
post #26 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"At $10k, and the market they're serving, the perceived "wow" factor alone will sell these in that segment."

yeah...but it would be more "wow factor" to have a hundred of these little guys, i think:

http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Reference-1262w-1200-Watt-High-Performance/dp/B0028AYIXK

with a single watt per driver, full reference would be achieved. :-)

imagine how funny it would be two guys each spend $10k on subs. one guy pulls back curtain to reveal his pro audio technology sub. has big grin on face. second guys pulls back his curtain and reveals wall of 100 subs. first guy facepalms so hard knocks himself out.

50 of my 18's as well.
post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

imagine how funny it would be two guys each spend $10k on subs. one guy pulls back curtain to reveal his pro audio technology sub. has big grin on face. second guys pulls back his curtain and reveals wall of 100 subs. first guy facepalms so hard knocks himself out.

yep, too funny!

Something akin to the Matterhorn, or merely a grid of 10x10 drivers in a sealed box, or big "V", with two sides of 50 drivers each
post #28 of 36
To me, the big difference between a "pre-built" and "DIY" is your requirements. If you don't go through the process of properly defining your requirements, you will potentially miss opportunities. In case like the Hobbit theater, I would absolutely be looking at a pro sub to maximize SPL vs cabinet volume.
post #29 of 36
the -3db @ 22hz is a joke to begin with.

In all but the largest rooms, I'm certain it would play well lower than that at absurd spls.

James
post #30 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

the -3db @ 22hz is a joke to begin with.

In all but the largest rooms, I'm certain it would play well lower than that at absurd spls.

James

I've spent some time discussing their line and their installs with them. Although their products are HT, and some screening rooms, I'd suggest the typical rooms their gear gets spec'd for are larger than normal.

Also, they shared with me that their capabilities and reputation is spreading among Hollywood celebrities, for über turn key, screening room style home systems.

Remember, such subs roll off at twice the rate of sealed subs, .. plus they're likely HP protected via DSP. So big room = not much below -3dB point.
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