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Audio Demos at CEDIA 2013 - Page 2

post #31 of 54
There has always been (and probably always will be) a legitimate debate in audio about whether small and possibly imperceptible incremental improvements in an audio system are worth a 10X or more increase in price. The fact that the so-called "High End" market even exists is evidence that some audio fans think it is (worth it). Fortunately we are each free to decide for ourselves how much of our money is better spent elsewhere rather than on a small improvement in audio. I do think, however, that most experts would say that beyond a certain minimum level of capability in speakers and electronics, most buyers are better served putting their money into improving acoustics, which for all practical purposes will never be out of date.
post #32 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by oOOBillO0o View Post

Good rundown, can you change the text to a different color?

black text on blue background? Can't read the review..good point from above poster
post #33 of 54
That's why we all "usually" make our purchase in AV gear coincide with our wallets. As for me if I had the extra coin I would have a room full of Mac or Krell amps all Revel Salon2 to make a 7.x setup with Revel heights and wides in a dedicated HT room treated to the max. It wouldn't be for anyone but me and my family. I don't need to impress anyone and I suspect most people feel the same way. Right now it is what it is and I'm very happy with what I have. Would I like more? Duh! biggrin.gif
post #34 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

At the demo, they claimed that the clip was in 11.1, and it sure sounded like it. I'll try to verify...you're right; if it was, in fact, native 11.1, it had to be a remix.

The content supplied by DTS (the Minus the Bear music video and the Prometheus clip) were in fact optimized for Neo:X 11.1 - so yes, they did a remix in 11.1 before laying down to 7.1 on the Blu Ray. Neo:X is fundamentally an upmix technology, so even though the content is mixed in 11.1, it is still mastered and laid down on the Blu Ray as 5.1 or 7.1.

The Auro format, which Datasat will also be supporting in the near future, is, by contrast a native 11.1 format - mixed in 11.1, encoded using the Auro tools to a 5.1 master, and then decoded and played back in 11.1.
post #35 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View PostThat's why we all "usually" make our purchase in AV gear coincide with our wallets. As for me if I had the extra coin I would have a room full of Mac or Krell amps all Revel Salon2 to make a 7.x setup with Revel heights and wides in a dedicated HT room treated to the max. It wouldn't be for anyone but me and my family. I don't need to impress anyone and I suspect most people feel the same way. Right now it is what it is and I'm very happy with what I have. Would I like more? Duh! biggrin.gif

Yes we all have limits to what we can buy, once I move I want a dedicated room that will be my first priority after the kitchen of course :)

 

Like you I also don't need to impress any one, my car is 16 years old and our cinema is where I spend the cash!

post #36 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Yes we all have limits to what we can buy, once I move I want a dedicated room that will be my first priority after the kitchen of course smile.gif

Like you I also don't need to impress any one, my car is 16 years old and our cinema is where I spend the cash!



Yes sir I hear that and no vehicle payments for me either. I spend too much on blu rays biggrin.gif
post #37 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimeran View Post

it all boils down to priorities.

I hate how people judge what someone else spends their money on because they personally dont find it worth while or cant afford it and automatically label them as "more money than brains"

Do people like that exist? SURE.

However, it seems like in the audio world people that are spending that most on a room and equipment seem to know more about what they are looking for and have dedicated rooms.

Now if you had someone that put something like Wilson Maxx 3 or higher priced model in a room the size of my office(shoe box) and it was tiled floor to ceiling, then yes, I would have more money than brains.

Seriously though, we all want to spend our money on different areas and things in our life. I live in a small house so I have smaller bills and lower mortgage so I can afford to travel....someone else would rather have a large house and a nice car....


I think the main issue lies within the fact that its so hard to justify these products by brands such as Magico and Wilson being so incredibly expensive. Especially when you can spend about 90% less and get speakers doing 90% of the job. Its the law of diminishing return, as someone mentioned, which has a very strong influence here. Whether someone thinks that spending 90% or so more on a product to get that little bit of extra performance is up to them and their financial situation.

The placebo effect is very powerful too rolleyes.gif
post #38 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post

I think the main issue lies within the fact that its so hard to justify these products by brands such as Magico and Wilson being so incredibly expensive. Especially when you can spend about 90% less and get speakers doing 90% of the job. Its the law of diminishing return, as someone mentioned, which has a very strong influence here. Whether someone thinks that spending 90% or so more on a product to get that little bit of extra performance is up to them and their financial situation.

The placebo effect is very powerful too rolleyes.gif

Haha, I'm also the one that also made the comment of marginal rate of return.

I 100% agree with you, heck, having an aluminum speaker with automotive paint may be worth it to some simply for making it more child proof, who knows. Each their own...
post #39 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashi777 View Post


I think the main issue lies within the fact that its so hard to justify these products by brands such as Magico and Wilson being so incredibly expensive. Especially when you can spend about 90% less and get speakers doing 90% of the job. Its the law of diminishing return, as someone mentioned, which has a very strong influence here. Whether someone thinks that spending 90% or so more on a product to get that little bit of extra performance is up to them and their financial situation.

The placebo effect is very powerful too rolleyes.gif

If the product sells, then there is a market for that level of performance—the category is known as "cost is no object." Is it worth buying these ultra-elite brands if you can't also afford the mansion to put them in? Probably not.

 

I'd even argue that some cheaper speaker systems outperform the Wilsons and Magicos of this world, that the situation is more complex than can be accounted for by the law of diminishing returns. These brands are seen as status symbols and command a premium—that's the beginning and end of the story as far as I am concerned.
 

post #40 of 54
Agreed Mark. Right now I'm going to try and tame my room a bit with some acoustic panels. It's something I've avoided for years, but I'm about done with the upgrade thing for awhile. I'm adding one more sub in a couple of weeks, then the panels and I'm going to enjoy what I have.
post #41 of 54
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Agreed Mark. Right now I'm going to try and tame my room a bit with some acoustic panels. It's something I've avoided for years, but I'm about done with the upgrade thing for awhile. I'm adding one more sub in a couple of weeks, then the panels and I'm going to enjoy what I have.

Be sure to check out my interview with Anthony Grimani about acoustic treatments!

post #42 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

If the product sells, then there is a market for that level of performance—the category is known as "cost is no object." Is it worth buying these ultra-elite brands if you can't also afford the mansion to put them in? Probably not.

I'd even argue that some cheaper speaker systems outperform the Wilsons and Magicos of this world, that the situation is more complex than can be accounted for by the law of diminishing returns. These brands are seen as status symbols and command a premium—that's the beginning and end of the story as far as I am concerned.

 

I agree. Only thing I would argue is that you cant really argue that the Magico build quality is not top notch with the all aluminum construction.

That said, I dont think there is much, if any, audible improvement from such a structure in the audio quality.
post #43 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post

Be sure to check out my interview with Anthony Grimani about acoustic treatments!



Thanks Scott I will, all the info I can get will be a big help smile.gif
post #44 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View PostIf the product sells, then there is a market for that level of performance—the category is known as "cost is no object." Is it worth buying these ultra-elite brands if you can't also afford the mansion to put them in? Probably not.

 

I'd even argue that some cheaper speaker systems outperform the Wilsons and Magicos of this world, that the situation is more complex than can be accounted for by the law of diminishing returns. These brands are seen as status symbols and command a premium—that's the beginning and end of the story as far as I am concerned.
 

Yes just like Ferrari, Bentley, Rolls.... If you can afford them then have fun for the rest of mortals our Camry takes us from point A to point B in the same amount of time especially in traffic :)

 

Audio Jewlery

- Goldmund

- Soluution

- Levinson

- Pass Labs

- Sim Audio

- Focal Utopia Grand

- Devialet..........

 

http://most-expensive.com/speakers

 

and connect them with these :) http://most-expensive.com/audio-cables

 

But if I had the cash I would go for this in my home http://www.imaxprivatetheatre.com/

post #45 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post


Like you I also don't need to impress any one, my car is 16 years old and our cinema is where I spend the cash!

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Yes sir I hear that and no vehicle payments for me either. I spend too much on blu rays biggrin.gif

I'm the same smile.gif
post #46 of 54
The photo of the 150A AC power hookup made me laugh. That's the sort of thing that I used to see at rock concerts! Do I need that at home, of course not!

Do I want that at home?..........

tongue.gif
post #47 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Thanks Scott I will, all the info I can get will be a big help smile.gif

Anthony really knows his stuff - and his views are science based, not placebo, voodoo and magic smile.gif

I think the best - and least intimidating - primer I know of on room acoustic treatments and where to place them is here:

http://www.hometoys.com/emagazine/2012/02/what-are-the-characteristics-of-a-good-sounding-room/1511

I use RealTraps in my studio and they work wonders. Anthony's treatments are excellent too. I believe the RealTraps site also has information on how to build your own.
post #48 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post

Anthony really knows his stuff - and his views are science based, not placebo, voodoo and magic smile.gif

I think the best - and least intimidating - primer I know of on room acoustic treatments and where to place them is here:

http://www.hometoys.com/emagazine/2012/02/what-are-the-characteristics-of-a-good-sounding-room/1511

I use RealTraps in my studio and they work wonders. Anthony's treatments are excellent too. I believe the RealTraps site also has information on how to build your own.



More good info, thanks smile.gif
post #49 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

More good info, thanks smile.gif

Yes great read the only problem I have is when comments like " you need to put as many Real Bass traps as possible" to me this is very self serving!
post #50 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post

Scott,

I have to say that the Wisdom Audio demo was the most impressive thing I heard at the show. The music clips were beautiful and the WallE clip had amazing channel panning and immersion - probably the best I've ever heard. The explosions in Skyfall were incredibly powerful.

Apparently they didn't play Tron when you were there? That clip was too loud. Actually Skyfall was too loud as well and I left the room with numb ears. But it was clean and huge in scope. I guess that's what a large room and all the headroom you could need will do for you. Very impressive.

I don't get the point of having "too loud" demos. Seems like they're missing the point of such expensive gear. You don't pay that sort of money just to get to "11" on the dial as IMHO, loud is not the same as quality. This is one of the main reasons I hate the movie theater experience these days. Overly-loud sound. It's a MUCH better audio experience at home.....
post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddy999 View Post

I don't get the point of having "too loud" demos. Seems like they're missing the point of such expensive gear. You don't pay that sort of money just to get to "11" on the dial as IMHO, loud is not the same as quality. This is one of the main reasons I hate the movie theater experience these days. Overly-loud sound. It's a MUCH better audio experience at home.....



I want both loudness and quality sound! And why not? I do see your point but extra headroom is a big plus to me smile.gif
Not that I'll ever spend that kind of money but if I could I would.
post #52 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddy999 View Post


I don't get the point of having "too loud" demos. Seems like they're missing the point of such expensive gear. You don't pay that sort of money just to get to "11" on the dial as IMHO, loud is not the same as quality. This is one of the main reasons I hate the movie theater experience these days. Overly-loud sound. It's a MUCH better audio experience at home.....

When it comes to defining too loud, I think there are two ways to look at it. There is too loud—as in distorted—and there is too loud as in "the levels are so high as to make listening uncomfortable."

 

Too often, when I've gone to movie theaters I have heard distorted audio. The typical movie theater experience—and this includes IMAX as well as "premium" amphitheaters—is totally unappealing to me.

 

The Wisdom Audio demo had nothing in common with the movie theater experience. The wisdom audio system was impeccable, it was the one audio demo at the show that I felt demonstrated what I consider ideal sound. It really was that good, and the only other system that I've heard resolve that kind of detail was a Krell based system at the New York audio show.

 

Was it too loud? In the context of the brief demo at a show where everybody's system was being play too loud, not really. On the other hand, it was too loud relative to my ideal reference listening levels.

post #53 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

When it comes to defining too loud, I think there are two ways to look at it. There is too loud—as in distorted—and there is too loud as in "the levels are so high as to make listening uncomfortable."

Too often, when I've gone to movie theaters I have heard distorted audio. The typical movie theater experience—and this includes IMAX as well as "premium" amphitheaters—is totally unappealing to me.

The Wisdom Audio demo had nothing in common with the movie theater experience. The wisdom audio system was impeccable, it was the one audio demo at the show that I felt demonstrated what I consider ideal sound. It really was that good, and the only other system that I've heard resolve that kind of detail was a Krell based system at the New York audio show.

Was it too loud? In the context of the brief demo at a show where everybody's system was being play too loud, not really. On the other hand, it was too loud relative to my ideal reference listening levels.



Here I thought you were going to say if it's too loud your too old biggrin.gif I've seen pics of at least some of your setup Mark and you don't have all that gear to play at all nicey nice volumes all the time. It is a luxury IMO to have the ability to play at reference levels or slightly above and not clip your amp(s) or bottom your speakers out. I'm not saying I have the caliber gear you heard at CEDIA or would I ever spend that kind of money, if I had it, which I don't. But I've chosen pretty carefully because I do on occasions play a song or two at +4 or slightly higher. It all depends on the recording and you know as well as I we are at the mercy of the source.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/14/13 at 8:31am
post #54 of 54
Quote:

Originally Posted by imagic View PostWhen it comes to defining too loud, I think there are two ways to look at it. There is too loud—as in distorted—and there is too loud as in "the levels are so high as to make listening uncomfortable."

 

YES It can give you a headache

 

Too often, when I've gone to movie theaters I have heard distorted audio. The typical movie theater experience—and this includes IMAX as well as "premium" amphitheaters—is totally unappealing to me.

 

I agree most theater sound is distorted and ruin the sound

 

The Wisdom Audio demo had nothing in common with the movie theater experience. The wisdom audio system was impeccable, it was the one audio demo at the show that I felt demonstrated what I consider ideal sound. It really was that good, and the only other system that I've heard resolve that kind of detail was a Krell based system at the New York audio show.

 

I wish I could have heard it

 

Was it too loud? In the context of the brief demo at a show where everybody's system was being play too loud, not really. On the other hand, it was too loud relative to my ideal reference listening levels.

I like to listen to loud movies at home but it is never distorted with B&W 800Diamonds and Classé CA-M600s :)

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