I have been told that CD player is just that - a CD player. No matter how much you pay for a player (well let say starting at $100 and up) the sound will remain the same. The manufacturers will claim redefining laws of physics and all that nonsense. But still, there will be no AUDIBLE difference between a garden variety $100 Sony CD player and the likes of these $12,000 beauties below.
Is this true? Provided we are sampling the same CD/SACD and audio system is of an elite level to pickup the difference, if there is any.
Basically. It's possible to screw up anything, and of course defects happen, but even the least expensive DACs have such low distortion that they can't be distinguished from the original source—and therefore, from each other—in a good listening test.
Of course, there are lots of naive audiophiles who want to believe in the perfection of their ears. That's why those $12,000 items exist.
They all do. No manufacturer that I know of (except perhaps for Sony) make their own laser mechanisms. I say that because I once had a high end CD player that had a Sony mechanism inside. They all buy them from an OEM supplier. These units won't even play DVD's or Blu-Rays.
Even if win the next Powerball or Jackpot of lottery, I cant imagine paying twelve grand for something that does the same job as any other player.
Then again, what is twelve grand if you happened to win a few hundred million? Would you guys buy that Accuphase CD player if that sort of fortune befalls on you?
No adequate person should buy any CD player whatsoever in 21st century, given the fact that for $12k (or a lot less) you can get a 0dB PC (fanless) with a very big SSD drive(s) and fill it with all the CD's you would ever listen to.
1. you'll have immediate access to all your music
2. the quality will be 1:1 with the original, if you've ripped your CD's correctly
3. you won't hear any noise that you may hear from a CD player (since there are no rotating parts anywhere)
4. you can use the PC for many other things, and not only to play some obsolete optical media format
I think you are right. Speakers are the most important factor in the process of listening. Upgrading other components (amplifier, wiring, CD transport, etc.) will not result in a dramatic improvement. Next to the speakers I would mention the quality of original master recording, but this is beyond our control.
12,000$ is way too much. CD players do have their differences but this was in the 90's and 80's when DAC technology was still improving. Today DACS have a very good SNR and extremely low THD that there is really no point of spending more than 100$ on a CD player. Now there might be a difference between different CD players because you have an analog output stage that outputs the signal although most CD players sound the same. Back in the 90's and more so in the 80's these output stages affected the sound quit a bit and the DACS sounded different too. I have two Sony players my one cheaper player sounds muddier same DAC but different output stage.
Today's players output stages and DACS are pretty much all the same, I actually think the older players sound better especially the ones from Denon.
Not to make this thread even more convoluted than it already is, what about the difference between PC CD/DVD/BD drives? Are there better ones and worse ones?
Again , I am taking about an audible difference while listening to music . Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23807088
Not to make this thread even more convoluted than it already is, what about the difference between PC CD/DVD/BD drives? Are there better ones and worse ones?
Again , I am taking about an audible difference while listening to music . Thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23806024
Even if win the next Powerball or Jackpot of lottery, I cant imagine paying twelve grand for something that does the same job as any other player.
Then again, what is twelve grand if you happened to win a few hundred million? Would you guys buy that Accuphase CD player if that sort of fortune befalls on you?
The dwindling supporters of "high end" cd players have, by and large, been forced to concede the point on DACs or at least have become more willing to de-emphasize the importance of the DAC chips. But they've collectively retrenched their position to emphasize the "analog stage". This is where they claim the magic happens, where one player audibly distinguishes itself from the next. And being a relatively vague term, they can use it to maintain their positional cover (i.e., a belief in audible differences between $100 and $1000 and $10,000 players) whereas a DAC is relatively too straightforward by comparison.
So is the analog stage. Unless you tried really hard to make it otherwise, the analog stages are free of audible distortion. There is simply no point whatsoever in buying an expensive CD player unless you enjoy having bouts with your hearing bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23807802
So is the analog stage. Unless you tried really hard to make it otherwise, the analog stages are free of audible distortion. There is simply no point whatsoever in buying an expensive CD player unless you enjoy having bouts with your hearing bias.
Correct. They can if manufactures want it to have a certain sound characteristic. I remember some manufacture used tubes in the output stage, it was also very expensive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23806160
I think you are right. Speakers are the most important factor in the process of listening. Upgrading other components (amplifier, wiring, CD transport, etc.) will not result in a dramatic improvement. Next to the speakers I would mention the quality of original master recording, but this is beyond our control.
I have to disagree with you on this one. I just replaced a 2-year old, $400 Yamaha integrated amplifier with a Creek Evolution 50a and it's the only part of my system that I upgraded. The improvement in sound quality is really remarkable. I've been listening to a Django Reinhardt record I've had for over 30 years (and listened to hundreds, if not thousands of times). The new amp reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before. It's a pretty dramatic improvement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbros /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809114
I have to disagree with you on this one. I just replaced a 2-year old, $400 Yamaha integrated amplifier with a Creek Evolution 50a and it's the only part of my system that I upgraded. The improvement in sound quality is really remarkable. I've been listening to a Django Reinhardt record I've had for over 30 years (and listened to hundreds, if not thousands of times). The new amp reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before. It's a pretty dramatic improvement.
Take a new CD of some rock group that plays so loud that your ears bleed. But when it comes to hearing all the subtle details your power amp is sure to enhance and bring forward, they are not even recorded. So, it does not matter if you have a super power amp. The source (the master tape) was created for mass market that mostly uses iPhones or PC speakers, not your McIntosh MC2KW power amp. The only possible complain of this target market listener group is that "it isnt loud enough when I work out in the gym".
But then again, if you have an excellent master recording - then it is another story. Then you are right. Power amp is the next important upgrade to the speakers. But still, I enjoy a good recording even without my power amp, directly from the receiver.
Let me give you an example. Michael Franks (smooth jazz) released a CD "Barefoot on the Beach". In 1987, if I am not mistaken. It sounds very detailed. Every background sax, cymbal crashes, background solos, every whisper is very vivid and distinct. You can enjoy it on almost any source, with or without a power amp (good speakers notwithstanding). Then he releases some kind of a retrospection 5 CD collection for a hundred bucks a year or two ago. Some of the old 1987 songs included as well. You would have thought the sound is going to be better, but hell no. It sounds louder, yes. But quality wise - not so much. Its like you are listening with pillows over your ears. It does not matter what sort of power amp you add into the mix. If source has no details for the power amp to accentuate, to bring forward, it will still sound dull. Listening to the older version without a power amp beats the new version with one by a mile! You dont need a spectroscope to pickup the difference. You can catch it from another room, that is how dramatic it is.
That is why I am listing good master audio recording after the speaker upgrade and before the power amp.
Quote:
I have to disagree with you on this one. I just replaced a 2-year old, $400 Yamaha integrated amplifier with a Creek Evolution 50a and it's the only part of my system that I upgraded. The improvement in sound quality is really remarkable. I've been listening to a Django Reinhardt record I've had for over 30 years (and listened to hundreds, if not thousands of times). The new amp reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before. It's a pretty dramatic improvement.
Hate to burst your bubble, but this is unlikely, unless there was something really wrong with the Yamaha. You're not hearing anything different. The change in amps has convinced you you're hearing something different. If we had you switch back and forth between the old and new amps, you'd never be able to tell which is which.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809255
Hate to burst your bubble, but this is unlikely, unless there was something really wrong with the Yamaha. You're not hearing anything different. The change in amps has convinced you you're hearing something different. If we had you switch back and forth between the old and new amps, you'd never be able to tell which is which.
Better yet: double blind study method. Place each setup behind a curtain and ask which is which 10-20 times. I realize this is not gonna happen, but if it did I think mcnarus is 100% on the money here! No difference will be heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23807292
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23807088
Not to make this thread even more convoluted than it already is, what about the difference between PC CD/DVD/BD drives? Are there better ones and worse ones?
Again , I am taking about an audible difference while listening to music . Thanks.
There lots of differences between many of the various drives in PCs, but they don't relate to sound quality. They are all read digitally and the error rates for playback are generally very low and correctable.
Old thread, new comment....Just tested out my HTPC that has LG branded BD/DVD drives...Going through a Marantz MM9000 (5ch x 150wrms amp and using a quality soundcard setup, this thing sounds as good as any high end, high priced CD unit i have heard in the past...(with quality electronics hooked up behind it)
Afore mentioned Marantz amp
Asus Xonar HDAV1.3 Deluxe soundcard(going direct to power amp)
Infinity Reference 2000.1 and Mission 702e speakers.(latest test iteration has Mirage Omni350 front towers, Omni150 rear pair and Omnisat v2 CC, Paradigm PW-2200 v2 sub*)
Test recordings-Bill Meyers "images', Swing Out Sister 'Better To Travel' and Mark Isham 'Vapor Drawings' (tested in 2 channel and in surround stereo as selectable with sound card)
*mainly used with video sources but sometimes with the music..
Not to make this thread even more convoluted than it already is, what about the difference between PC CD/DVD/BD drives? Are there better ones and worse ones?
Again , I am taking about an audible difference while listening to music . Thanks.
No difference.
There lots of differences between many of the various drives in PCs, but they don't relate to sound quality. They are all read digitally and the error rates for playback are generally very low and correctable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullbros /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809114
I have to disagree with you on this one. I just replaced a 2-year old, $400 Yamaha integrated amplifier with a Creek Evolution 50a and it's the only part of my system that I upgraded. The improvement in sound quality is really remarkable. I've been listening to a Django Reinhardt record I've had for over 30 years (and listened to hundreds, if not thousands of times). The new amp reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before. It's a pretty dramatic improvement.
Two words: sighted evaluation. I've heard these stories about "reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before" many times before. If the units meet minimal standards, and the comparison is time-synched, level-matched, quick-switched under listener control and bias controlled, that sort of thing just goes away. That I've seen it happen many times including to myself. It is universal.
Compare the artifacts produced by a good modern amp to the threshold of hearing, including the effects of concurrent spectral masking. No way are they going to be heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809359
Two words: sighted evaluation. I've heard these stories about "reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before" many times before. If the units meet minimal standards, and the comparison is time-synched, level-matched, quick-switched under listener control and bias controlled, that sort of thing just goes away. That I've seen it happen many times including to myself. It is universal.
Compare the artifacts produced by a good modern amp to the threshold of hearing, including the effects of concurrent spectral masking. No way are they going to be heard.
Actually, a good power amp indeed improves sound greatly. I wouldn't say it is a night and day difference, but Skullbros is right. If you have good speakers and good source recording the difference is remarkable. Are you saying that all power amplifiers are useless, arnyk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809416
Actually, a good power amp indeed improves sound greatly. I wouldn't say it is a night and day difference, but Skullbros is right. If you have good speakers and good source recording the difference is remarkable. Are you saying that all power amplifiers are useless, arnyk?
It depends on the receiver... I'm using a 25 watt Technics receiver and couldn't be happier. There comes a point where a receiver isn't going to sound better, look at distortion ratings and the line input s-n-r.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809416
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809359
Two words: sighted evaluation. I've heard these stories about "reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before" many times before. If the units meet minimal standards, and the comparison is time-synched, level-matched, quick-switched under listener control and bias controlled, that sort of thing just goes away. That I've seen it happen many times including to myself. It is universal.
Compare the artifacts produced by a good modern amp to the threshold of hearing, including the effects of concurrent spectral masking. No way are they going to be heard.
Actually, a good power amp indeed improves sound greatly. I wouldn't say it is a night and day difference, but Skullbros is right. If you have good speakers and good source recording the difference is remarkable. Are you saying that all power amplifiers are useless, arnyk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by grigorianvlad /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809416
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809359
Two words: sighted evaluation. I've heard these stories about "reveals subtleties and textures that I had never heard before" many times before. If the units meet minimal standards, and the comparison is time-synched, level-matched, quick-switched under listener control and bias controlled, that sort of thing just goes away. That I've seen it happen many times including to myself. It is universal.
Compare the artifacts produced by a good modern amp to the threshold of hearing, including the effects of concurrent spectral masking. No way are they going to be heard.
Actually, a good power amp indeed improves sound greatly. I wouldn't say it is a night and day difference, but Skullbros is right. If you have good speakers and good source recording the difference is remarkable. Are you saying that all power amplifiers are useless, arnyk?
I have a few good power amps as well as receivers....I'd say they make little difference. Audiophoolery especially when you think your ears somehow can tell the difference with "good speakers and good source" as if that's something special. If you need the power of an outboard amp, that's one thing, but I don't think the boutique amps are game changers at all....
What's the quantitative difference between "improves sound greatly" but not a "night and day" difference?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbeam418 /t/1493588/is-there-an-audible-diff...rts-and-modest-cheap-cd-players#post_23809438
It depends on the receiver... I'm using a 25 watt Technics receiver and couldn't be happier. There comes a point where a receiver isn't going to sound better, look at distortion ratings and the line input s-n-r.
I dont know what kind of source you are using and what sort of speakers you have, but there is no way in the world a Technics receiver (I've owned two, one used with a top of the line Technics power amp) is the perfection achieved. The consumer division of Technics went out of business almost 20 years ago.
Are you saying that there will be no audible difference between your system and the likes of this ? I am only trying to understand this "There comes a point where a receiver isn't going to sound better".
I'm just looking for amplification, not some sort of on paper perfection of specs, somewhat that diminishing returns concept. I have several different brands of amps and avrs, but not those two. McIntosh is nice but I would never spend that much, may as well get that $12000 cd player. Still, I'd bet you'd get fooled in an ABX test.
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