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Your expert advice: Panasonic ZT60 or Samsung F8500 in a bright room (room photo included)

post #1 of 104
Thread Starter 
Hello everyone,

I'm on the verge of making a large purchase. Upon much research it's a toss up between the ZT60 and the F8500. It will be mounted to the wall on the right side of the photo and the unit will be facing an East facing window.
The window off to the side of the TV face the South. Both windows are seen in the attached photo along with my soon to be replaced DLP.

Now, I do most of my viewing during the late afternoon and evening. So, it will be nowhere as bright as seen in the photo which was taken today at 1:20PST.
Though, on weekends I like to kick back and enjoy TV viewing in a bright room. As bright as shown in the photo.

Which plasma display will I be better off with in terms of handling the room brightness, shown in the photo, with the least degradation in PQ or color washout?

I really cannot gauge it in the store as both plasma displays are in Best Buys dimly lit section. I understand glare could be an issue, but later in the afternoon and in evening it's a lesser to non-existent issue.



Thanks for your time.
post #2 of 104
that is one bright room

The F8500 is probably a better choice, it is the brightest plasma television you can currently buy

the zt60 is better if you have a darker room, need a tv with less lag
post #3 of 104
I want the 8500, even though my room is nowhere near as bright as that. The 51" went off sale a few weeks ago, but when I wanted it there were none in stock up here in MN, so I'm waiting. I've owned a kuro for 4+ years and love it, but when I see the brightness and pop of lcd at the stores, I feel like I'm missing something. You have to buy what you like, but I think it will be easier to turn down the brightness on the 8500, whereas the vt and zt will only go so bright. The 8500 seems like the perfect balance between a plasma and lcd, even though it's still plasma.
post #4 of 104
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your input!

Ambient light can be controlled in the room. It's for the few times I do brighten up the room that I am concerned with. Usually on weekends. From what I've read, both the ZT60 and the F8500 can handle "bright rooms", but what does "bright" exactly mean? I've been unsuccessful defining "bright room" as it pertains to plasma display reviews.

I do not want to give up PQ just because the F8500 is brighter. If the ZT60 is just plain bad in "bright rooms" then I can justify going with the F8500. Though, if the ZT60 PQ is just as good as the F8500 in the same "bright room" albeit a little dimmer, then I can justify the ZT60. I say that because most viewing will be done in a dim to dark room, and the ZT60 PQ is superior relative to the F8500 in dimmer environments

In the end, I'm trying to gather additional information from more knowledgeable users. Users more knowledgeable than me smile.gif
post #5 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderu2 View Post

I want the 8500, even though my room is nowhere near as bright as that. The 51" went off sale a few weeks ago, but when I wanted it there were none in stock up here in MN, so I'm waiting. I've owned a kuro for 4+ years and love it, but when I see the brightness and pop of lcd at the stores, I feel like I'm missing something. You have to buy what you like, but I think it will be easier to turn down the brightness on the 8500, whereas the vt and zt will only go so bright. The 8500 seems like the perfect balance between a plasma and lcd, even though it's still plasma.

Thanks for your reply. I see your point of wanting something brighter. I suppose I'll have to review PQ between the two further. Deep blacks are what I'm after in the end. Maybe to my untrained eyes there will be no difference between the two plasma displays in a dim to dark room, but I don't want to leave that to chance. Heck, better than 75% of my viewing will be in the room when it's much dimmer or even dark. You bring up a great point to ponder.... its better to have that extra brightness to turn down.

Much confusion now. Need to hear from others.
post #6 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderu2 View Post

I want the 8500, even though my room is nowhere near as bright as that. The 51" went off sale a few weeks ago, but when I wanted it there were none in stock up here in MN, so I'm waiting. I've owned a kuro for 4+ years and love it, but when I see the brightness and pop of lcd at the stores, I feel like I'm missing something. You have to buy what you like, but I think it will be easier to turn down the brightness on the 8500, whereas the vt and zt will only go so bright. The 8500 seems like the perfect balance between a plasma and lcd, even though it's still plasma.

Its really not worth worrying about how bright the LCD's look in the store. When calibrating a TV set most pros calibrate to 40 foot lamberts. All that brightness from LCD's is pretty much wasted when the set gets calibrated and its only good if the TV is going to be in a bright room. The ST60/VT60/ZT60 and F8500 can hit 40 ftls when properly calibrated.

There is no LCD in the market than can hold up to the high end 2013 Plasma sets. In the 2013 HDTV shootout they didn't even bother testing the LCD's against the plasmas... the PQ difference is that great.
Edited by shenaniganz08 - 10/5/13 at 11:14pm
post #7 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by roncruiser View Post

Thanks for your input!

Ambient light can be controlled in the room. It's for the few times I do brighten up the room that I am concerned with. Usually on weekends. From what I've read, both the ZT60 and the F8500 can handle "bright rooms", but what does "bright" exactly mean? I've been unsuccessful defining "bright room" as it pertains to plasma display reviews.

I do not want to give up PQ just because the F8500 is brighter. If the ZT60 is just plain bad in "bright rooms" then I can justify going with the F8500. Though, if the ZT60 PQ is just as good as the F8500 in the same "bright room" albeit a little dimmer, then I can justify the ZT60. I say that because most viewing will be done in a dim to dark room, and the ZT60 PQ is superior relative to the F8500 in dimmer environments

In the end, I'm trying to gather additional information from more knowledgeable users. Users more knowledgeable than me smile.gif

The ZT60 will be the best Panasonic Plasma in a bright room. If the room is dark then you can even step down to the VT60 (the two sets have almost equal dark room PQ). The ZT60 is not terrible in bright lighting, it's just that compared to the F8500 it will look slightly washed out. The PQ of the F8500 is pretty comparable to the ZT60 so don't think you are sacrificing that much. But you have to keep in mind that the F8500 is nearly 2x as bright as any of the 2013 Panasonic plasmas.

So to recap

Always dark room: Get the VT60 or ZT60 as they will have similar PQ in the dark
Mostly dark (room that you can make dark): You will probably be equally happy with either the ZT60 or the F8500
Mostly bright room: The best plasma will be the F8500
Always bright room: Get an LCD
post #8 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderu2 View Post

I want the 8500, even though my room is nowhere near as bright as that. The 51" went off sale a few weeks ago, but when I wanted it there were none in stock up here in MN, so I'm waiting. I've owned a kuro for 4+ years and love it, but when I see the brightness and pop of lcd at the stores, I feel like I'm missing something. You have to buy what you like, but I think it will be easier to turn down the brightness on the 8500, whereas the vt and zt will only go so bright. The 8500 seems like the perfect balance between a plasma and lcd, even though it's still plasma.
I echo the last guy's remarks. You're not missing much by not having an LCD. To the original poster, the ZT60 is blinding at night when viewing, and it (along with the VT60) has the deepest blacks of plasma this year. Some will tell you there's no difference without side-by-side comparisons, but in dark scenes (think sci-fi, horror), there's no doubt in my mind that the deeper blacks increase the immersion. Since 75% of your viewing is under controlled lighting, there is no shame (and hardly any downside) in grabbing a Panasonic.
post #9 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

The ZT60 will be the best Panasonic Plasma in a bright room. If the room is dark then you can even step down to the VT60 (the two sets have almost equal dark room PQ). The ZT60 is not terrible in bright lighting, it's just that compared to the F8500 it will look slightly washed out. The PQ of the F8500 is pretty comparable to the ZT60 so don't think you are sacrificing that much. But you have to keep in mind that the F8500 is nearly 2x as bright as any of the 2013 Panasonic plasmas.

So to recap

Always dark room: Get the VT60 or ZT60 as they will have similar PQ in the dark
Mostly dark (room that you can make dark): You will probably be equally happy with either the ZT60 or the F8500
Mostly bright room: The best plasma will be the F8500
Always bright room: Get an LCD

Understood. It really is a toss up between the ZT60 and the F8500. Since PQ is mostly everything when veiwing, I'm leaning towards the ZT60 since qualtiy viewing will mostly be done in a dimmer to dark room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

I echo the last guy's remarks. You're not missing much by not having an LCD. To the original poster, the ZT60 is blinding at night when viewing, and it (along with the VT60) has the deepest blacks of plasma this year. Some will tell you there's no difference without side-by-side comparisons, but in dark scenes (think sci-fi, horror), there's no doubt in my mind that the deeper blacks increase the immersion. Since 75% of your viewing is under controlled lighting, there is no shame (and hardly any downside) in grabbing a Panasonic.

It's really a multi-viewing room. Sometime's it's just having the sporting event on in the background while doing something else. In general, the plasma display will be viewed all hours of the day. Morning, noon and night. In almost all lighting conditions. Abeit bright room viewing is a small percentage of my viewing time. Quality viewing will be done in a dimmed room. Quality meaning when I expect a pristine picture for my viewing pleasure. My original post was meant to extract views from experienced plasma users on the PQ during bright room viewing. Say when a sporting event is on in the background during Super Bowl Sunday, in a brighter room, will guests be struggling to see the picture? I don't expect perfect PQ, but I do expect very good PQ during brighter viewing events. Hope that all made sense.

Still looking for other peoples opinions on the matter. Please chime in. Thanks.
post #10 of 104
It's difficult to give you one recommendation over the other, though I am leaning towards the F8500. I think the set that can go the brightest will make it the easiest for guests to see during bright daytime viewing, and that would again be the F8500. The ZT60 will do a little better at offsetting reflections and maintaining its contrast in comparison to the F8500, however, but the latter will be more competitive with the sun. wink.gif
post #11 of 104
You need to get one thing out of your head right now, there is NO PERFECT TELEVISION

We gave you all the information you need, we can't make the decision for you.

Here I'll make it super easy for you

You need to decide if you want slightly better dark levels over having a television that will be significantly brighter.
post #12 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shenaniganz08 View Post

You need to get one thing out of your head right now, there is NO PERFECT TELEVISION

We gave you all the information you need, we can't make the decision for you.

Here I'll make it super easy for you

You need to decide if you want slightly better dark levels over having a television that will be significantly brighter.

You don't have to do anything for me. I'm not asking for the perfect television. I'm asking for more information to make a better informed decision. That's all. The more information the better. I've been scouring the forum for more data, it's good ask for information specific to me.
I'm not ignoring your input, but it shouldn't bother you anyhow.

Any other information is welcome. Keep it coming. Thanks.
post #13 of 104
Looks like you have plenty of blinds to control the light if you really wanted to. I have a fairly bright room as well and decided to just go with the ZT60 over the F8500. The reason being that most serious TV/movie watching happens during the evening anyway. During the day I can control the lighting a bit with the blinds.

I think if I went with the 8500 I would always wonder about the ZT60. Grass is greener on the other side type of thing, I believe. LOL.
post #14 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

Looks like you have plenty of blinds to control the light if you really wanted to. I have a fairly bright room as well and decided to just go with the ZT60 over the F8500. The reason being that most serious TV/movie watching happens during the evening anyway. During the day I can control the lighting a bit with the blinds.

I think if I went with the 8500 I would always wonder about the ZT60. Grass is greener on the other side type of thing, I believe. LOL.

Thanks for your input. At the moment, I'll buy whichever I can get a better deal on. I was going to pull the trigger outright on the 64" F8500 over the weekend but hesitated as I wondered about getting a good deal. I read in the Great Found Deals forum that both sets could be had for a lower price from BB.

I really can't get go wrong with either TV. I like to game on occasion and the input lag of the F8500 was a small concern. I was going to buy the F8500 and play some COD on it for a short time to test out input lag. From what I've read, some people have no problem with the input lag. Even while playing a fast action first person shooter like COD. Anyhow, if BB can lower the price on the 65" ZT60, I'll go for it.

Thanks,

Ron
post #15 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by roncruiser View Post

Thanks for your input. At the moment, I'll buy whichever I can get a better deal on. I was going to pull the trigger outright on the 64" F8500 over the weekend but hesitated as I wondered about getting a good deal. I read in the Great Found Deals forum that both sets could be had for a lower price from BB.

I really can't get go wrong with either TV. I like to game on occasion and the input lag of the F8500 was a small concern. I was going to buy the F8500 and play some COD on it for a short time to test out input lag. From what I've read, some people have no problem with the input lag. Even while playing a fast action first person shooter like COD. Anyhow, if BB can lower the price on the 65" ZT60, I'll go for it.

Thanks,

Ron

Yeah, you can't go wrong with either set. They are both very good from what I've seen the times I have checked them at different stores. The Best Buy I went to in Orange County would not bend one bit on the price on the ZT60 but the guy did say they had it on sale for like a week at one point, only in store though. Good luck.
post #16 of 104
I too was stuck between the ZT and the 8500, leaning slightly toward the Panasonic. The factor that sealed the deal was, of all things, the Samsung's base. It's as wide as the TV and therefore too wide for my TV stand. Problem solved.

There's no shame in either but I almost guarantee you'll have a slight pang of buyer's remorse no matter which you buy, wondering if the other would have been better. The only way to prevent that is to buy both and return the one you don't want. Personally I don't think it's worth that much trouble. They're both good TVs, and as you know there are no perfect TVs made. Just weigh your options, buy the model that makes the most sense, set up the TV and then NEVER VISIT THIS SITE AGAIN. smile.gif
post #17 of 104
Thread Starter 
Bought the 65" ZT60 last night! Will be delivered on Monday. Now, need a heavy duty no nonsense wall mount.
post #18 of 104
Congratulations!

Like others said you can't go wrong with either TV
post #19 of 104
Thread Starter 
Thanks. I'm looking forward to concluding this thread with my own findings.
post #20 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by roncruiser View Post

Bought the 65" ZT60 last night! Will be delivered on Monday. Now, need a heavy duty no nonsense wall mount.

Well, I noticed this thread too late to chime in when it could have helped you make a decision. But to set expectations, the ZT will be brighter than your DLP, although the screen will be more reflective. You won't have any problems from the southern windows, unless you're trying to watch TV from where the camera is positioned. Which, by the way, would not be a problem at night since the off angle viewing on the ZT is so freaking awesome. The east windows at mid day will give the viewers on the couch reflections. I can't speak to the f8500, since I've never had one in my house, but the ZT will compete well enough with the reflections when viewing bright material like sports. You'll notice them, but they shouldn't cause too much trouble. You will have trouble with dark material like movies at mid day. Although, I suspect the ZT would handle that a little better than the f8500 since it is supposed to hold its blacks better in high ambient light. My ZT holds its blacks very well during the day.

I would think any plasma TV would have a lot of trouble in your room in the morning, with sun streaming in through those east windows. But as another poster already mentioned, you can always close the blinds on the east windows. You'll still be getting plenty of light from the south windows, so it's not like you'ld be in a cave during the day.

I don't think you could have gone wrong with either TV. Stepping up from the DLP is going to be really fun for you. Enjoy!

My observations are based on my own fairly bright room. Below is a picture of my room. The window to the left is east. There is another east window you can't see directly to the left of the camera. Behind the camera is a big window to the north. The north window gives me reflections when sitting on the couch. The couch being where the camera is, although I was standing when I took the picture.




Oh BTW, you might check out monoprice.com for the wall mount.
Edited by sooke - 10/13/13 at 8:42am
post #21 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sooke View Post

Well, I noticed this thread too late to chime in when it could have helped you make a decision. But to set expectations, the ZT will be brighter than your DLP, although the screen will be more reflective. You won't have any problems from the southern windows, unless you're trying to watch TV from where the camera is positioned. Which, by the way, would not be a problem at night since the off angle viewing on the ZT is so freaking awesome. The east windows at mid day will give the viewers on the couch reflections. I can't speak to the f8500, since I've never had one in my house, but the ZT will compete well enough with the reflections when viewing bright material like sports. You'll notice them, but they shouldn't cause too much trouble. You will have trouble with dark material like movies at mid day. Although, I suspect the ZT would handle that a little better than the f8500 since it is supposed to hold its blacks better in high ambient light. My ZT holds its blacks very well during the day.

I would think any plasma TV would have a lot of trouble in your room in the morning, with sun streaming in through those east windows. But as another poster already mentioned, you can always close the blinds on the east windows. You'll still be getting plenty of light from the south windows, so it's not like you'ld be in a cave during the day.

I don't think you could have gone wrong with either TV. Stepping up from the DLP is going to be really fun for you. Enjoy!

My observations are based on my own fairly bright room. Below is a picture of my room. The window to the left is east. There is another east window you can't see directly to the left of the camera. Behind the camera is a big window to the north. The north window gives me reflections when sitting on the couch. The couch being where the camera is, although I was standing when I took the picture.




Oh BTW, you might check out monoprice.com for the wall mount.

Thanks for the reply.

I'd have gone with the F8500 if I wasn't so concerned with the input lag. Brighter and less expensive was a big F8500 selling point for me, but I like to do some serious gaming on occasion and any reduction in input lag made the ZT60 a no-brainer.

During bright room viewing, having a tilting wall mount will help with the reflections from the east window. Even without the tilting wall mount, I'm not too worried about reflections from the east window anymore. I'm sure the ZT60 will be able to diffuse any reflections from the east window enough not to be a big bother.

Ron
post #22 of 104
You'll love gaming on the ZT. My son and I have been having a great time playing Diablo III lately. Looks fantastic on the ZT.
post #23 of 104
I can't tell you whether the zt or f8500 will be a better bet, but I can tell you the light coming in from behind the sofa will be a problem.

neither tv does a great job of eliminated direct sunlight, and both do a pretty good job of dealing with ambient lighting, or light from the sides.

I think if you can block the lighting from behind the couch, the f8500 will be bright enough to enjoy in that room. I know it's very pleasant to watch with all my room lighting cranked to the fullest(not sunlight, but I find it uncomfortably bright actually). it just can't do anything about direct reflections, anything behind the viewer will get reflected back at the viewer.
post #24 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sooke View Post

You'll love gaming on the ZT. My son and I have been having a great time playing Diablo III lately. Looks fantastic on the ZT.

Thanks. I look forward to doing some gaming on the ZT. Mainly XBox One stuff. I'm not a serious 24/7 gamer, but there are a few games I like to go all out on when latest versions I really like get released.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I can't tell you whether the zt or f8500 will be a better bet, but I can tell you the light coming in from behind the sofa will be a problem.

neither tv does a great job of eliminated direct sunlight, and both do a pretty good job of dealing with ambient lighting, or light from the sides.

I think if you can block the lighting from behind the couch, the f8500 will be bright enough to enjoy in that room. I know it's very pleasant to watch with all my room lighting cranked to the fullest(not sunlight, but I find it uncomfortably bright actually). it just can't do anything about direct reflections, anything behind the viewer will get reflected back at the viewer.

Thanks. The choice was made smile.gif I can live with controlling the room light. The DLP wasn't great with the sunlight from behind the couch either. As long as the PQ is as good as or better than the DLP in bright (sun driven) lighting, I'll be satisfied. Serious viewing will be done with the blinds closed. I just didn't want to have to shut the blinds during the occasion when I want to fill my room with sunlight and have a Sunday football game playing in the background.
post #25 of 104

me too,I'm leaning towards the ZT60 since qualtiy viewing will mostly be done in a dimmer to dark room.

6.gif

post #26 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sooke View Post

Well, I noticed this thread too late to chime in when it could have helped you make a decision. But to set expectations, the ZT will be brighter than your DLP, although the screen will be more reflective. You won't have any problems from the southern windows, unless you're trying to watch TV from where the camera is positioned. Which, by the way, would not be a problem at night since the off angle viewing on the ZT is so freaking awesome. The east windows at mid day will give the viewers on the couch reflections. I can't speak to the f8500, since I've never had one in my house, but the ZT will compete well enough with the reflections when viewing bright material like sports. You'll notice them, but they shouldn't cause too much trouble. You will have trouble with dark material like movies at mid day. Although, I suspect the ZT would handle that a little better than the f8500 since it is supposed to hold its blacks better in high ambient light. My ZT holds its blacks very well during the day.

I would think any plasma TV would have a lot of trouble in your room in the morning, with sun streaming in through those east windows. But as another poster already mentioned, you can always close the blinds on the east windows. You'll still be getting plenty of light from the south windows, so it's not like you'ld be in a cave during the day.

I don't think you could have gone wrong with either TV. Stepping up from the DLP is going to be really fun for you. Enjoy!

My observations are based on my own fairly bright room. Below is a picture of my room. The window to the left is east. There is another east window you can't see directly to the left of the camera. Behind the camera is a big window to the north. The north window gives me reflections when sitting on the couch. The couch being where the camera is, although I was standing when I took the picture.




Oh BTW, you might check out monoprice.com for the wall mount.


Dont mean to steal this thread but I'm about to pull the trigger on a 65"VT60 and noticed your seating distance in your photo looks somewhat far like what I'm faced with in my LR, I'm looking at 12-14' from my seating to the TV and dont really want to go the LED route for a larger screen based on my seating distance and sacrafice PQ, what is your distance (looks similar to mine?) and I assume you are happy with it if it is in fact as far as the picture makes it look ??
I currently have a 51" RPTV and its not to bad and can only imagine a huge benefit/differance going to a 65" Plasma....
post #27 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadking00 View Post

Dont mean to steal this thread but I'm about to pull the trigger on a 65"VT60 and noticed your seating distance in your photo looks somewhat far like what I'm faced with in my LR, I'm looking at 12-14' from my seating to the TV and dont really want to go the LED route for a larger screen based on my seating distance and sacrafice PQ, what is your distance (looks similar to mine?) and I assume you are happy with it if it is in fact as far as the picture makes it look ??
I currently have a 51" RPTV and its not to bad and can only imagine a huge benefit/differance going to a 65" Plasma....

My seating distance is 12', and that is a 60" ZT. I think most people on this forum would want a bigger screen for a 12' distance. So would I, actually. But as you can see from the picture, the built-in entertainment center could only fit a 60" max. I got as big as I could go. Changing out the built-in was not an option. It is custom built from cherry and cost a lot more than the TV.

However, like you, I went from a smaller TV (46") to this TV. So I'm lovin' it anyways, it's a big improvement. For your situation, the trade-off between larger size or better PQ is really subjective. If it were me, I'ld go with better PQ. I mean how much bigger can you go with LED? Maybe just 5 more inches? Sharp might make something bigger, I dunno.
Edited by sooke - 10/16/13 at 7:30am
post #28 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by sooke View Post

My seating distance is 12', and that is a 60" ZT. I think most people on this forum would want a bigger screen for a 12' distance. So would I, actually. But as you can see from the picture, the built-in entertainment center could only fit a 60" max. I got as big as I could go. Changing out the built-in was not an option. It is custom built from cherry and cost a lot more than the TV.

However, like you, I went from a smaller TV (46") to this TV. So I'm lovin' it anyways, it's a big improvement. For your situation, the trade-off between larger size or better PQ is really subjective. If it were me, I'ld go with better PQ. I mean how much bigger can you go with LED? Maybe just 5 more inches? Sharp might make something bigger, I dunno.

Thanks for the reply, I can get a 70-75 or 80" but would be pay considerably more and not as good PQ....so I guess I'll stick with the 65" VT60 and I'm now convince it will look great and be plenty big enough....
post #29 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sooke View Post

My seating distance is 12', and that is a 60" ZT. I think most people on this forum would want a bigger screen for a 12' distance. So would I, actually. But as you can see from the picture, the built-in entertainment center could only fit a 60" max. I got as big as I could go. Changing out the built-in was not an option. It is custom built from cherry and cost a lot more than the TV.

However, like you, I went from a smaller TV (46") to this TV. So I'm lovin' it anyways, it's a big improvement. For your situation, the trade-off between larger size or better PQ is really subjective. If it were me, I'ld go with better PQ. I mean how much bigger can you go with LED? Maybe just 5 more inches? Sharp might make something bigger, I dunno.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadking00 View Post

Thanks for the reply, I can get a 70-75 or 80" but would be pay considerably more and not as good PQ....so I guess I'll stick with the 65" VT60 and I'm now convince it will look great and be plenty big enough....

Using my photo as reference: Sitting on the couch, the distance from my eyeballs to the wall is 11'.
post #30 of 104
Since this is your last chance to buy a Panasonic plasma the choice is obvious.

It would be like buying a 1967 Corvette.
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