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Your expert advice: Panasonic ZT60 or Samsung F8500 in a bright room (room photo included) - Page 4

post #91 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

Thank you, LeKnobber, but it's too late...

Traded in the ZT60 for the Samsung F8500.  Much happier.

As long as you are happy, all is good!

As an FYI for the future though, I would mention that my ZT picture is amazing. I based it off of D-Nice and Sammie calibration settings and then tweaked it a bit. I am pretty sure your set just needed to be tuned to give you a great picture.
post #92 of 104
Of course it's amazing...it's been confirmed by the pros repeatedly (Sound & Vision handing out the latest reward). I wouldn't let random unhappy owners allow you to regret your decision.
post #93 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderu2 View Post

I want the 8500, even though my room is nowhere near as bright as that. The 51" went off sale a few weeks ago, but when I wanted it there were none in stock up here in MN, so I'm waiting. I've owned a kuro for 4+ years and love it, but when I see the brightness and pop of lcd at the stores, I feel like I'm missing something. You have to buy what you like, but I think it will be easier to turn down the brightness on the 8500, whereas the vt and zt will only go so bright. The 8500 seems like the perfect balance between a plasma and lcd, even though it's still plasma.

Is "pop" a good thing in a TV? Wouldn't that seem unnatural or irritating after extended viewing? Movie theaters do not seem to have a "pop." Thanks.
post #94 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by igreg View Post

Is "pop" a good thing in a TV? Wouldn't that seem unnatural or irritating after extended viewing? Movie theaters do not seem to have a "pop." Thanks.

Whether it is liked or not is really a matter if personal preference. Similar to those who are passionate about their Darbees.
post #95 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by igreg View Post

Is "pop" a good thing in a TV? Wouldn't that seem unnatural or irritating after extended viewing? Movie theaters do not seem to have a "pop." Thanks.

Now that I've had time to live with my ZT60 for 250+ hours, I personally don't think extra brightness is usable for dark room movie watching. The max contrast I can use in THX Cinema mode is maybe 70 out of 100.

Daytime football watching with the blinds open and direct sun is another story.
post #96 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein View Post

Chunon,

Sammy's gamma settings are 2.4

I don't think it's just my particular set, gentlemen.

I saw the ZT60 and F8500 next to each other at Value Electronics.  

Both Robert Zohn and I noticed that the ZT60 looked dark, dull and washed out next to the F8550.  

Yes, it was in a fairly lit store, but not torch lit like most department stores are.  

I made the choice on the ZT60 thinking that in a totally darkened room it would look completely different.

Unfortunately, it looks as if there's a film or filter inhibiting for more detail from showing.  Bright day scenes look perfectly bright and beautiful.  Only dark scenes suffer.

I am not the only person who has returned the ZT60 because of its dimness.  I may be the only one who is doing it for dimness in a totally darkened room.


Even the African American expert in the shootout stated that the ZT puts out less light than the VT (5 lamberts), but he preferred the ZT because he watches in a darkened room. Also notice that the VT is actually more expensive and harder to get than the ZT. The camera and speakers could contribute to that also.

If you buy the Samsung and don't like the brightness because you believe it creates an artificial look, can you scale it down to the level of the VT/ZT, or are there picture compromises if you do that? Thanks.
post #97 of 104
"Pop" can be created by two factors : lower blacks and higher brightness. The F8500 can, for example, give more pop than the LCDs even at the similiar brightness because of superior blacks. The ZT60 can also create great pop, but it's done a bit different from the one from the F8500, that's for sure. My lowly Panasonic S60 may be the dimmest plasma of 2013, still I'm awed with its great pop depending on right contents. Definitely love playing games more on this set than the LCDs, even with limited ABL.

Pop is the main reason I'm not interested in FALD LCDs at all. I'm addicted to inky, juicy colors, and simply shutting down parts of panel to complete darkness is still not going to bring inky, juicy colors to the LCD land.
post #98 of 104
^Have you witnessed the best FALD made so far to reach that conclusion, the Sharp Elite series? I haven't, but it did win the 2011 shootout courtesy of its performance.
post #99 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by igreg View Post

Also notice that the VT is actually more expensive and harder to get than the ZT. The camera and speakers could contribute to that also.

If you buy the Samsung and don't like the brightness because you believe it creates an artificial look, can you scale it down to the level of the VT/ZT, or are there picture compromises if you do that? Thanks.

Since when has the VT been more expensive than the ZT? The ZT is supposed to be more expensive because of the air gapless panel, despite the lack of camera and forward facing speakers, as reflected in the MSRPs and the typical street prices.

As to your question, you can always scale the light output down with minimal downsides. The Samsung will have less ABL in bright scenes. The downside if there is one is that the Samsung has higher black levels in some situations, so by restricting the light output, you're getting a worse overall contrast ratio. The Samsung is probably the more usable set in more situations, but despite that I went with the ZT60 and have been happy.
post #100 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Have you witnessed the best FALD made so far to reach that conclusion, the Sharp Elite series? I haven't, but it did win the 2011 shootout courtesy of its performance.

Yes I did. Also seen the Sony HX959, and the LG LEX8 and the likes.

In my opinion, there are three types of pop. Pop from sequencial contrast ratio like the CRT, pop from ANSI contrast ratio like plasmas and OLEDs, pop from differences in on-off contrast ratio from adjacent zones like the FALD LCDs. (I do not know the correct technical term) The FALD LCDs do make themselves more noticable at first because of contrast difference from completely off zone and the usual eye-searing brightness of LCDs are far huge. (even more-so than the OLEDs perhaps) But, soon enough, they leave me craving me for more because they still do not give me that inky and juicy colors. It's actually the brightest scenes that FALD LCDs lose out the most because there is no longer any off zones for me to get excited with on-off contrast ratio. My Samsung Galaxy phone for example is far more satisfying because it gives me the brightness of the F8500 and the black level of the ZT60/Kuro. It's not just "dark" blacks or "eye-scorching" brightness, it's those meaty colors that are dripping with pop.
post #101 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by vantagesc View Post

Since when has the VT been more expensive than the ZT? The ZT is supposed to be more expensive because of the air gapless panel, despite the lack of camera and forward facing speakers, as reflected in the MSRPs and the typical street prices.

As to your question, you can always scale the light output down with minimal downsides. The Samsung will have less ABL in bright scenes. The downside if there is one is that the Samsung has higher black levels in some situations, so by restricting the light output, you're getting a worse overall contrast ratio. The Samsung is probably the more usable set in more situations, but despite that I went with the ZT60 and have been happy.


Thanks for the info. Regarding the VT versus ZT, appears that the remaining VT's are more scare, and higher priced than the ZT....for whatever reason.
post #102 of 104

Gosh I would love to view a VT or ZT Panny or even the 8500..

 

BTW isn't is getting pretty darn hard to find the Panasonic plasma's now?

post #103 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOF View Post

Yes I did. Also seen the Sony HX959, and the LG LEX8 and the likes.

In my opinion, there are three types of pop. Pop from sequencial contrast ratio like the CRT, pop from ANSI contrast ratio like plasmas and OLEDs, pop from differences in on-off contrast ratio from adjacent zones like the FALD LCDs. (I do not know the correct technical term) The FALD LCDs do make themselves more noticable at first because of contrast difference from completely off zone and the usual eye-searing brightness of LCDs are far huge. (even more-so than the OLEDs perhaps) But, soon enough, they leave me craving me for more because they still do not give me that inky and juicy colors. It's actually the brightest scenes that FALD LCDs lose out the most because there is no longer any off zones for me to get excited with on-off contrast ratio. My Samsung Galaxy phone for example is far more satisfying because it gives me the brightness of the F8500 and the black level of the ZT60/Kuro. It's not just "dark" blacks or "eye-scorching" brightness, it's those meaty colors that are dripping with pop.
Thanks for your impressions. I have a feeling we'd be on the same wavelength when it comes to critical viewing. That is why a world of LED only is a fright for perfectionists like us.
post #104 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Thanks for your impressions. I have a feeling we'd be on the same wavelength when it comes to critical viewing. That is why a world of LED only is a fright for perfectionists like us.

No, I'm not a perfectionist anymore. I used to be when I still had a CRT as my main display. These days, I realized it's impossible to find a perfect display. Gamers have it hard because they need good input lag, good motion performance, good black levels for dark, realistic games, brightness for cartoony games, and also great color accuracy : about everything a display has to offer. Unlike people here who mainly watch movies, even an OLED is not going to be a solution for me with an LCD-like motion performance. For plasma fans here, don't just gloat about the black level. Do not sell its superior motion performance short.

Coming from a CRT, I was extremely ANSI contrast starved, so I always respected the Kuro for what it was, and when I was making a comparison between the VT60 and the F8500, I could tell the VT60 had slightly more inky color, but on/off contrast ratio wise, it was harder to make a comparison. The first time I've seen the F8500, it was plagued with ABL popping : good MLL, but not very watchable. (It had been fixed the next time I came) Having used the S60 for 3 months, maybe I was too harsh on the VT60 I've seen. I would still choose the ST60 before the VT60, but I also feel the VT60/ZT60 will perform exceptionally well for many games, with Panasonic's signature deep, inky colors. Still, I do not have room for two or more TVs, and I have to cover most if not all of my contents, that's why I've made a compromise and decided to go with a F8500 variant the next time I buy my plasma. Versatility over magic I say. (I also say 'magic' to those 4K TVs. Unfortunately for them, inky colors are more magical to me than 3D-like parallax scrolling) We gamers do not play with black bars to help with ABL, everything is full screen. I also personally find my S60's ABL fine for movies. I've watched Happy Feet without issues. Oh well, there may be a Kuro or a VT60 in my future. For the price of the VT60 and the F8500 together, it may make more sense to go with an OLED, but again, motion performance over PQ for me. Same reason I've actually debated buying the VT50 for its superior motion resolution over the ST60/VT60/ZT60. There is a full of compromises in life, and I have to go with the one that gives me the least compromise. I think that's the key.
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