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Which chipset is better for a HTPC - Z87 or H87? - Page 4  

post #91 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Good point (especially if you have a server). This comparison is more applicable in your example and the difference is much less dramatic. During sleep it is obviously going to be even less.

Yeah during sleep my AMD A6 consumes around 3W~4W while the the i3 is typically under 1W. So there is a difference even in sleep but I haven't bothered to calculate the yearly difference... it's small enough that I'm not worried about it. My heated cat beds consume more energy biggrin.gif
post #92 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiley165 View Post

Excellent points!

OP is using build as a combined HTPC/Server.

If OP is using the HTPC as the only client then he could still put it to sleep when not using it. If not then the power saving CPU will be more of a factor.
post #93 of 132
FYI, microcenter does not limit discounts to particular chipsets, they are based on model. (can you tell I shop there a lot yet?)

They do vary between different models, but $20-50 is the norm, and within the socket there is usually a minimum discount. (right now: 1150 $30+, 1155, $20+, AM3/FM2 $40+)

Source: http://www.microcenter.com/site/specials/catalog/Catalog.aspx
pages 33-34


FWIW $200 to walk out the door with a 4340 (3.6 Ghz 2C4T hd4600 55W max) and H87M Pro4 (uATX, intel nic) is a crazy good deal for a pretty powerful htpc. $5 more for an H87M-ITX if you don't mind an atheros nic. (can't be worse than realtek)
post #94 of 132
Nick just got the 4670k and Asrock Extreme 4 M-ATX cheaper than the lower chip and board on newegg.

+1 on microcenter for sure. If you can grab a bundle discount the deals are awesome
post #95 of 132
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aluminum View Post

FYI, microcenter does not limit discounts to particular chipsets, they are based on model. (can you tell I shop there a lot yet?)

They do vary between different models, but $20-50 is the norm, and within the socket there is usually a minimum discount. (right now: 1150 $30+, 1155, $20+, AM3/FM2 $40+)

Source: http://www.microcenter.com/site/specials/catalog/Catalog.aspx
pages 33-34


FWIW $200 to walk out the door with a 4340 (3.6 Ghz 2C4T hd4600 55W max) and H87M Pro4 (uATX, intel nic) is a crazy good deal for a pretty powerful htpc. $5 more for an H87M-ITX if you don't mind an atheros nic. (can't be worse than realtek)
Thanks, I'll check it carefully to see which one is the best for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Yeah during sleep my AMD A6 consumes around 3W~4W while the the i3 is typically under 1W. So there is a difference even in sleep but I haven't bothered to calculate the yearly difference... it's small enough that I'm not worried about it. My heated cat beds consume more energy biggrin.gif
Just pulled the trigger on Fractual Node 304 case because I plan to put 5 hdd and 1 ssd in that small nice case, and therefore I consider which mobo/ CPU with less heat.

Maybe one more question guys.
To listen music from my HTPC, I was told not to use a conventional PSU in the case that causes static or something like that. Should I buy a Pico PSU? If so, for a HTPC with 6 hdd, is it good enough to buy 90W, 120W, 150W, or 160W?
Thank you.
post #96 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

To listen music from my HTPC, I was told not to use a conventional PSU in the case that causes static or something like that. Should I buy a Pico PSU? If so, for a HTPC with 6 hdd, is it good enough to buy 90W, 120W, 150W, or 160W?
Thank you.

You were told incorrect information.
post #97 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

Thanks, I'll check it carefully to see which one is the best for me.
Just pulled the trigger on Fractual Node 304 case because I plan to put 5 hdd and 1 ssd in that small nice case, and therefore I consider which mobo/ CPU with less heat.

Maybe one more question guys.
To listen music from my HTPC, I was told not to use a conventional PSU in the case that causes static or something like that. Should I buy a Pico PSU? If so, for a HTPC with 6 hdd, is it good enough to buy 90W, 120W, 150W, or 160W?
Thank you.

I never heard of that. Standard PSU for the win (cheaper)
post #98 of 132
Theoretically, a switching power supply creates some dirtiest interference for analog signals but not that big of a deal when you have a motherboard full of digital chips which all produce far more noises than the PSU. A external pico PSU will do the same with the exception of RF interference since it is out side of the box. A decent sound card will filter out those noises easily (those typically cost > $100). But if you are using digital audio output, it will not suffer from any of it. These day of age, there is no reason to use the analog audio output, especially if you rely on the cheap D/A converters on the motherboard for that.
post #99 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Theoretically, a switching power supply creates some dirtiest interference for analog signals. But a external pico PSU will do the same with the exception of RF interference since it is out side of the box. A decent sound card will filter out those noises easily (those typically cost > $100). But if you are using digital audio output, it will not suffer from any of it. These day of age, there is no reason to use the analog audio output, especially if you rely on the cheap D/A converters on the motherboard for that.

Sure there is. Zone 2 on most receivers will only accept analog. I use this for my whole home audio (along with Sonos which is awesome btw)
post #100 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Many (most?) people that use the A6 and especially the A8 recommend using an aftermarket CPU cooler as it is harder to keep cool (and thus quiet). Some of the saving gain is then lost when you compare it to Intel which can use the stock cooler (for free).

If you are using this for just 1080p then there is no difference between the two in my (and many others') opinions. Its when you start getting into things like adding Madvr and gaming where the AMD APU makes a difference. But I think Haswell has closed even that gap quite a bit.

My own experience with an A8 APU is that
a) it gets hot at full load
b) the bundled heatsink/fan is utter garbage, so you have to budget for a silent aftermarket cooler so this is another $20-30

This is the one I am talking about. It's bad. Really bad.

post #101 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

This is what you're trying to make the Z87 vs H87 look like but in reality it's more like the H87 is a fully loaded 550i and the Z87 is that same fully loaded 550i with an extra washer fluid reservoir. The bottom line is the Z87 and the H87 are the exact same chipset and the H87 is software limited to 2x crossfire/sli and no overclocking. If you aren't using Triple crossfire/sli and not overclocking then you're wasting your money on the ridiculously inflated prices of the Z series boards.

Well, actually the BMW vs Kia comparison is a pretty good analogy. The BMW is like a super duper expensive motherboard with more expensive components, elaborate design, color scheme, etc. and it gives a great impression of perceived quality. The Kia is more like a low price Asrock.

But in reality, the unassuming Kia is likely to be several magnitudes more reliable than the BMW. My BMW 750 breaks all the time. My wife's Hyundai Santa Fe has not had even one fault in 7 years. Zero. Zip.

So is a high end Bimmer a better car?
The Z mobo will feel great just like the BMW but in the long run there is nothing to say it will work better.
post #102 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by durack View Post

My own experience with an A8 APU is that
a) it gets hot at full load
b) the bundled heatsink/fan is utter garbage, so you have to budget for a silent aftermarket cooler so this is another $20-30

This is the one I am talking about. It's bad. Really bad.


That's been my experience as well.
post #103 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Well, actually the BMW vs Kia comparison is a pretty good analogy. The BMW is like a super duper expensive motherboard with more expensive components, elaborate design, color scheme, etc. and it gives a great impression of perceived quality. The Kia is more like a low price Asrock.

But in reality, the unassuming Kia is likely to be several magnitudes more reliable than the BMW. My BMW 750 breaks all the time. My wife's Hyundai Santa Fe has not had even one fault in 7 years. Zero. Zip.

So is a high end Bimmer a better car?
The Z mobo will feel great just like the BMW but in the long run there is nothing to say it will work better.

Again. It's a terrible analogy and it doesn't apply in any way, shape or form. What you and Mfusick don't understand is that it's the exact same chipset and exact same motherboard. You're trying to compare a high end Z87 to an entry level H87 and obviously then the high end board is going to be the high quality "better" board. You can do the exact same the other way around in a high end H87 and entry level Z87. The high end H87 will be significantly higher quality. I gave an example earlier feel free to go back and read. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494009/which-chipset-is-better-for-a-htpc-z87-or-h87#post_23818160 The Z87 and H87 boards are identical with the exception of the additional PCIe 2.0 slot on the Z87 and useless ASMedia SATA2 ports and the H87 board is $100 less. Hence, BMW vs BMW with additional water reservoir bottle is an accurate analogy as you're paying $100 more for useless features.

And by the way I've never had any issues with my 550i's or the Mrs. X1. I did have tons of issues with my Sonata though and the Mrs old Tucson was the biggest piece of crap we've ever owned. Taking vehicle reliability on a per person/couple example really means nothing. And Kia is actually not rated very well at all. Significantly lower than their sister Hyundai.
post #104 of 132
Well maybe I got a little carried away there. Guess I took the opportunity to take a cheap shot at BMW marketing.
They are, at least in Europe, not even in the top 10 for reliability. But through clever brand awareness building (gotta hand it to them) they have managed to make everyone believe they build the world's best cars.
[end OT]
post #105 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Again. It's a terrible analogy and it doesn't apply in any way, shape or form. What you and Mfusick don't understand is that it's the exact same chipset and exact same motherboard. You're trying to compare a high end Z87 to an entry level H87 and obviously then the high end board is going to be the high quality "better" board. You can do the exact same the other way around in a high end H87 and entry level Z87. The high end H87 will be significantly higher quality. I gave an example earlier feel free to go back and read. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1494009/which-chipset-is-better-for-a-htpc-z87-or-h87#post_23818160 The Z87 and H87 boards are identical with the exception of the additional PCIe 2.0 slot on the Z87 and useless ASMedia SATA2 ports and the H87 board is $100 less. Hence, BMW vs BMW with additional water reservoir bottle is an accurate analogy as you're paying $100 more for useless features.

And by the way I've never had any issues with my 550i's or the Mrs. X1. I did have tons of issues with my Sonata though and the Mrs old Tucson was the biggest piece of crap we've ever owned. Taking vehicle reliability on a per person/couple example really means nothing. And Kia is actually not rated very well at all. Significantly lower than their sister Hyundai.

You keep saying this but the Z87 supports plenty of features like memory OC, GPU OC, CPU OC, and even the "tiny lake" SSD cache OP listed in his first thread. Anything extra is "better" including the extra sata ports or PCI2.0 slots- just because you don't need them does not erase their existence.

Not once did anyone say he should not get the H, or the H was no good. I'm not understanding why this is such a big argument, it's really stupid. I've already given up, lets move on biggrin.gif
post #106 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

You keep saying this but the Z87 supports plenty of features like memory OC, GPU OC, CPU OC, and even the "tiny lake" SSD cache OP listed in his first thread. Anything extra is "better" including the extra sata ports or PCI2.0 slots- just because you don't need them does not erase their existence.

Not once did anyone say he should not get the H, or the H was no good. I'm not understanding why this is such a big argument, it's really stupid. I've already given up, lets move on biggrin.gif

I keep saying it because I'm correct. The ability to OC mean absolutely nothing to 99.9% of users and additional PCIe 2.0 slots are hardly a benefit. They are just a waste of space. Additional ASMedia ports? Again. Waste of space. Optical drives don't even function correctly on that junk controller. The H and Z boards are the exact same quality.

Answer this... for someone who isn't an overclocker or hard core gamer (H boards are perfect for 99.9% of gamers) what does the Z board do better than the H board?
post #107 of 132
This thread is like deja vu all over again.
post #108 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

I keep saying it because I'm correct. The ability to OC mean absolutely nothing to 99.9% of users and additional PCIe 2.0 slots are hardly a benefit. They are just a waste of space. Additional ASMedia ports? Again. Waste of space. Optical drives don't even function correctly on that junk controller. The H and Z boards are the exact same quality.

Answer this... for someone who isn't an overclocker or hard core gamer (H boards are perfect for 99.9% of gamers) what does the Z board do better than the H board?

Nothing if you don't need the features. wink.gif

My argument has never been you need them. Just they exist and the z87 has them. biggrin.gif
post #109 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

This thread is like deja vu all over again.

Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Nothing if you don't need the features. wink.gif

My argument has never been you need them. Just they exist and the z87 has them. biggrin.gif

So if it doesn't do anything better... and it's not higher quality... and it doesn't provide any functionality difference... then how is it better? It's a rhetorical question so please don't bother answering as everyone already knows what you're going to say. I've proven my point enough times in this thread with valid points, real product examples and Intel's spec sheets and you've done nothing but say "It's better because it costs more and it's better!"....
post #110 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Exactly.
So if it doesn't do anything better... and it's not higher quality... and it doesn't provide any functionality difference... then how is it better? It's a rhetorical question so please don't bother answering as everyone already knows what you're going to say. I've proven my point enough times in this thread with valid points, real product examples and Intel's spec sheets and you've done nothing but say "It's better because it costs more and it's better!"....

It has more features. Whether you use them or not is up to you. You are the one who is coming off as thick. If you believe that having all the functionality of the H chipset plus additional features is "better" , then it is better.
post #111 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

It has more features. Whether you use them or not is up to you. You are the one who is coming off as thick. If you believe that having all the functionality of the H chipset plus additional features is "better" , then it is better.

I'm not going to waste my time going over the same points again and again just because two people here are incapable of understanding something so basic. Again... what makes the Z boards "better?" Answer: Nothing.
post #112 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

I'm not going to waste my time going over the same points again and again just because two people here are incapable of understanding something so basic. Again... what makes the Z boards "better?" Answer: Nothing.

Having more features enabled makes the chipset better. It has nothing to do with the boards it is placed in.
post #113 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

Having more features enabled makes the chipset better. It has nothing to do with the boards it is placed in.

How?
post #114 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

How?

Because it has all of the features of the H chipset, and then additional ones. If cost was no object, why wouldn't you choose the one that provides more options?
post #115 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

Because it has all of the features of the H chipset, and then additional ones. If cost was no object, why wouldn't you choose the one that provides more options?

That statement is not accurate. One example is that the "Z" series boards do not offer Intel SBA, wheras the "H" series does.
post #116 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

Because it has all of the features of the H chipset, and then additional ones. If cost was no object, why wouldn't you choose the one that provides more options?

Because cost is an object. And as I've already said approximately 102,446 times in this thread... how do those features make a "better" HTPC? They don't. End thread.
post #117 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiley165 View Post

That statement is not accurate. One example is that the "Z" series boards do not offer Intel SBA, wheras the "H" series does.

??? That is software that comes bundled. That is like saying that my laptop is better than your laptop because it included more shovelware. If anything I'd feel better knowing I wasn't paying for that garbage!

Intel Small Business Advantage is a security nightmare
post #118 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by itznfb View Post

Because cost is an object. And as I've already said approximately 102,446 times in this thread... how do those features make a "better" HTPC? They don't. End thread.

We're speaking strictly on which is the "better" chipset. Cost does not matter when speaking on those terms, you never asked which was better "bang for the buck" or which was better "depending on the users needs". Furthermore, overclocking a CPU and GPU can make huge performance gains in an HTPC. It absolutely does matter to some people.

I'm sorry but you're just being flat out stubborn at this point. Your argument holds no weight whatsoever, and now you're trying to construct an "out" for yourself. If you want to /END THREAD be my guest, but that doesn't mean you're right.
post #119 of 132
Z87 vs H87, which is better, depends fully on the board maker. From an article about the differences:
Quote:
Unfortunately, many motherboard manufactures attempt to push users to Z87 motherboards by limiting the number of ports and headers on their H87 motherboards. Because of this, Z87 motherboards are sometimes a better choice than H87 even when you do not need overclocking or triple SLI/Crossfire.
http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Z87-H87-H81-Q87-Q85-B85-What-is-the-difference-473/

The H87 is able to have the same number of ports and headers as the Z87, but since many board makers are gimping it you might find yourself needing all the bells and whistles the Z87 offers. Having more features in a chipset, with the same reliability as a less feature rich chipset, does make the former chipset better from a generic chipset standpoint (it can do everyone the latter can do and more). Whether you need the better chipset is a different issue (and most people will not, which is why the board makers are gimping the lesser chipset).

For example, when I look at the Asus Z87 Pro vs the H87 Pro:

H87
1 x PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16 (x16 mode, yellow)
1 x PCIe 2.0 x16 (x4 mode, dark brown) *1
2 x PCIe 2.0 x1
Realtek LAN
6 SATA Ports
6 Phase VRM


Z87
3 x PCI 2 x PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16 (x16 or dual x8)
1 x PCIe 2.0 x16 (x4 mode) *3
4 x PCIe 2.0 x1 *4
Intel LAN
8 SATA Ports
12 Phase VRM
Better Analog Output
Built in WIFI and Bluetooth
TPM Header



Again, a person's use of the extra features provided by the chipset is irrelevant to the chipset being superior to the lesser feature rich chipset. All it means is they can save money and use the inferior chipset since it meets all their needs. This is why my main car (aka, my beater car) is a 2001 Kia Rio and not a 2013 Rolls Royce Phantom. The Kia meets all my needs and I save money by using the inferior car.
post #120 of 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by emcdade View Post

??? That is software that comes bundled. That is like saying that my laptop is better than your laptop because it included more shovelware. If anything I'd feel better knowing I wasn't paying for that garbage!

Intel Small Business Advantage is a security nightmare

Isn't that the point you are trying to make? You state that the "Z" chipset has more features, and therefore is "better", while I point out a support feature not included in the "Z" chipset and you dismiss it as "shovelware".

Isn't the extra features of the "Z" like Lake Tiny, Overclocking, and Tri-SLI support just "Shovelware" for someone that isn't going to use it?
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