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Panasonic to End Plasma Panel Production By April 2014 - Page 8

post #211 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weboh View Post

Interesting.
yeah, pricing as really come down on the decent home theatre models. they still sell some crazy expensive ones, and my comparison was between a top of the line Samsung f8500 and an entry model jvc x35, but the performance I get in a dark room is very equitable. and there's some much cheaper projectors that I still think are better than most LCD's.
Quote:
Burn-in can be subtle and not noticed. It can very slight, as are all my logo burns have been difficult to notice. Things like air conditioning also make a difference.
all I can say is I don't have any burn in. I still feel like you might be talking about image retention, which I have seen after a few hours of web surfing or watching letterbox movies. but it's pretty subtle from normal viewing distances, and always goes away quickly. I can't claim this for EVERY plasma made, but it's possible on the ones I've used, it's possible for the technology. it's kind of like viewing a dynex lcd and noticing it never gets dark, them claiming it's impossible for lcd's to produce good blacks. you'd piss off a lot of elite owners with that comment.

as for the a/c, I think we're just going to have agree to disagree on that one.
Quote:
I wish had appreciated the colors red and green more, because they tend not to burn-in as much. Realizing this, I have finally found the settings the calibrator wanted me to use for my TV, and I dislike admitting I have been using too much color. 50 is way too much and is a little tacky.
My preference would be to use the projector and change the bulb every year.redface.gif
But plasmas don't seem to be selling at the high end, and high end models aren't built to please IMO.

ok, ??, I agree they haven't been selling, but they haven't really been trying to sell them either. that's been my argument. maybe after Cnet declares your TV the highest rated of all time, you let some ppl know about that...
post #212 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

It is a tremendous TV. In relative terms, the 3D is better than many, many other TVs that use active glasses. The 2D quality absolutely shreds LCD TVs and comes remarkably close to the "reference" plasmas in terms of black levels—except in the most difficult scenes like outer space. I had a chance to see the ST60 and ZT60 side-by-side—calibrated and in a controlled environment and playing the same content. The best-of-the-best the world of LCD has to offer was there as well. The ST60 is much closer to a ZT60 than it is to any LCD panel, in terms of overall image quality.

It's really hard to believe that Panasonic couldn't find a way to get the message out about the image quality advantage its plasma panels enjoy over competitors' LCD models.

what was the lcd model?

I never got to side by side in a controlled manner, but I spent several hours viewing both the st60 and vt60 and came to the conclusion the differences were extremely subtle. basically if you put a flashlight near the vt60, that was enough to make it look worse than the st60, and vice versa. you really would need perfect control to see the advancements
post #213 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


what was the lcd model?

I never got to side by side in a controlled manner, but I spent several hours viewing both the st60 and vt60 and came to the conclusion the differences were extremely subtle. basically if you put a flashlight near the vt60, that was enough to make it look worse than the st60, and vice versa. you really would need perfect control to see the advancements

I can't discuss that until next week, but I will publish a piece about my visit to NY. I saw some interesting things. Agreed on the subtle difference between the plasmas, while the gap between that and the black-level performance of even the best edge-lit LCDs is huge.

post #214 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I can't discuss that until next week, but I will publish a piece about my visit to NY. I saw some interesting things. Agreed on the subtle difference between the plasmas, while the gap between that and the black-level performance of even the best edge-lit LCDs is huge.

i assumed it was something already on the market. can i guess from this, the model is new/unreleased?

can you comment on how the model you viewed compares to what's on the market i may have already seen?
post #215 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post


i assumed it was something already on the market. can i guess from this, the model is new/unreleased?

can you comment on how the model you viewed compares to what's on the market i may have already seen?

Comparing the ST60 to a Vizio M-series or a Samsung F8000, the blacks are near-infinitely more uniform on the plasma, and a blotchy mess on the LCDs. The blacks are also much deeper, even on the ST60. Motion resolution is superior as well. Viewed head-on, the LCDs did well on bright scenes—especially when there was punchy color. Anything with letter-boxing was a disaster on LCD, in comparison to plasma. Side-by-side, the differences are just glaring, while the ST60 and ZT60 were very close. The main thing the ZT60 did versus the ST60 was that the grayscale reproduction remains much more neutral towards the extremes (like 5% illumination).

post #216 of 392
I just ordered the TCP60ST60 from Paul's TV. I'm sure I had time but when I saw this thread come up I got nervous and decided not to wait smile.gif
post #217 of 392
A few years may pass until manufacturers learn how to make OLED mass producible, reliable & cheap. Until then the mass market
will reject it in favor of LCD/LED just as it rejected the superior Plasma technology. So OLED may also become a niche product for
videophiles who won't mind the extra expense.
Recently at Best Buy a salesperson friend of mine ask me to help him convince a couple looking for a 50" set by telling them about the great experience with my Panasonic ST60. After I showed the couple all the great reviews; they said that they understand that it's a great TV but that an LCD could be bought for 3 or 4 hundred less.
They just didn't care or understood about TV quality. Just about price.
Besides I have to admit that my impression of the ST60 won't be the same that a regular non-videophile consumer would have even if they acquired the set.
My ST60 had a basic calibration done after being taken out of the box followed by an ISF calibration after 100 hours.
Quality video/audio products will always enjoy a smaller market share and will also be appreciated by fewer people.
OLED itself has more in common with Plasma than with LCD. Like self illuminating pixels & a wide viewing angle. Also the better motion handling of Plasma.
OLED has the advantage over Plasma that it can produce an absolute black since it doesn't require a residual electric charge like Plasma.
The mass market could be happy with an LCD/LED only future,mad.gif
Edited by Anjo1530 - 10/17/13 at 7:49pm
post #218 of 392
because people are dumb. That's exactly it, the moron sheep go to the store, see the floor models and think "OOO, shiny pretty colors". With no knowledge about picture adjustments and never reading a review, the average American idiot buys the LCD TV. I still know people that argue with me about plasmas, saying that they are no good because they run out of gas. People are morons.
post #219 of 392
People? I assume that you consider yourself a people.
post #220 of 392
This is pretty obvious in my opinion. People in general care about only a few things unless they are an enthusiast about the subject (we all fall into this in different areas imo). 1. Wow factor, and LCD has that in the stores while Plasma doesn't.

2. Cost. While Plasma gets you better picture quality for the money in general, find me a $300 Plasma. My parents for example purchased a $1,000 Samsung LCD TV a couple years ago that they will keep until it dies. This was their first HDTV, and they recently bought a cheap $400ish LCD for their bedroom that will also last until it dies. That $1,000 TV was a huge extravagant purchase for them (in TV terms), and they combined make around $150,000 a year, so clearly they can afford more. People aren't interested enough in picture quality to spend 2 or 3 times as much once you reach HD. There is a huge jump between HD and SD in terms of picture quality, not nearly so much between even a bargain brand LCD and a ZT/VT60/F8500/Kuro (it is a ton better of course, just not as large a jump).

And 3. Marketing. For the most part people buy what the advertisements tell them to buy. For example, how many people are out there that eat McDonald's several times a week and still complain that they can't lose weight? People have been advertised into oblivion by their commercials that it's not fattening (I guarantee you Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick aren't eating Mighty Wings after practice every day like that commercial suggests).

In the end there's nothing that can compete with the thousands of ads out there claiming 50" 1080p LCD TV for $400, and then they introduce a "new" tech like LED-LCD!

Anyway, that's my $0.02
post #221 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

People? I assume that you consider yourself a people.
But probably not American. Since its only the average American idiot that buys LCD. rolleyes.gif
post #222 of 392
The LCD's are lined up at BB like cattle for slaughter biggrin.gif all at eye level. Here is the Panny plasma tuned the opposite way and at hip level, it wasn't even broadcasting anything it was just turned on when I saw it! Looking all dark because it was lit up like a hospital surgery room in there. Sadly I was the only one looking at the Panny, and I was also ignored by the sales people eek.gif
Needless to say they didn't get my business.
Edited by comfynumb - 10/18/13 at 5:14am
post #223 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vatore View Post

because people are dumb. That's exactly it, the moron sheep go to the store, see the floor models and think "OOO, shiny pretty colors". With no knowledge about picture adjustments and never reading a review, the average American idiot buys the LCD TV. I still know people that argue with me about plasmas, saying that they are no good because they run out of gas. People are morons.

Someone who wants to watch football on a Sunday afternoon in a brightly lit living room using a 80-inch screen that costs under $4000 is an idiot? Should they get a 65" plasma instead, run it at maximum brightness, and hope the network logo doesn't cause IR? Perhaps if that buyer had self-identified as a movie buff, the decision could be called into question. Otherwise, there's nothing idiotic about the purchasing decisions many people make—it's all a compromise in the end.

post #224 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

The LCD's are lined up at BB like cattle for slaughter biggrin.gif all at eye level. Here is the Panny plasma tuned the opposite way and at hip level, it wasn't even broadcasting anything it was just turned on when I saw it! Looking all dark because it was lit up like a hospital surgery room in there. Sadly I was the only one looking at the Panny, and I was also ignored by the sales people eek.gif
Needless to say they didn't get my business.

The ST60 at the BB I stop at had it's own dedicated display at the front of the TV section. It was at eye height for a standing person, and had demo material running on it. The last time I was there was to pick up some speakers, some sales dude saw me looking at the tv and mentioned that it was a fantastic TV for the price. I told him I had a VT50, he nodded and said "Nice." Oddly enough, for the most part the people at that store are pretty decent and knowledgeable.
post #225 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post


The ST60 at the BB I stop at had it's own dedicated display at the front of the TV section. It was at eye height for a standing person, and had demo material running on it. The last time I was there was to pick up some speakers, some sales dude saw me looking at the tv and mentioned that it was a fantastic TV for the price. I told him I had a VT50, he nodded and said "Nice." Oddly enough, for the most part the people at that store are pretty decent and knowledgeable.

Best Buy staff at my store have also been surprisingly knowledgeable. One guy actually followed the whole Value Electronics shootout and knew the results. The high end Panasonic plasmas are found in Magnolia, where they belong. Usually that includes a light controlled environment, and a demo with the TV at eye-level—and a nice comfy sofa. If anything, plasma is treated like the premium product that it is.

post #226 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by vatore View Post

because people are dumb. That's exactly it, the moron sheep go to the store, see the floor models and think "OOO, shiny pretty colors". With no knowledge about picture adjustments and never reading a review, the average American idiot buys the LCD TV. I still know people that argue with me about plasmas, saying that they are no good because they run out of gas. People are morons.

Me and my co-worker were talking about TV's and he obviously brought up LCD's are better than plasmas. "My Sony Bravia is the best"..........right. The best part was when he said "plasmas are no good because you have to bring it to the store and fill up with plasma. They use a plasma gun to do it."

I kid you not this was said to me. I burst out laughing in front of him and tell him you have no idea what you're talking about. That's not how it works at all. He looked a little embarrassed too.


The sheep knows no bounds.
post #227 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

The ST60 at the BB I stop at had it's own dedicated display at the front of the TV section. It was at eye height for a standing person, and had demo material running on it. The last time I was there was to pick up some speakers, some sales dude saw me looking at the tv and mentioned that it was a fantastic TV for the price. I told him I had a VT50, he nodded and said "Nice." Oddly enough, for the most part the people at that store are pretty decent and knowledgeable.



Maybe it's the managements decision at each store? My area is depressed and it always has been, so it's all about cheap price with everything not just TV's. Speaking of oddly, and not to put this into a gender category, but it seems the women sales people at my local BB are more knowledgable than the men on average.
post #228 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Maybe it's the managements decision at each store? My area is depressed and it always has been, so it's all about cheap price with everything not just TV's. Speaking of oddly, and not to put this into a gender category, but it seems the women sales people at my local BB are more knowledgable than the men on average.

Maybe it's that the store I stop at is a Magnolia store, so they have the same area that imagic describes with the high end tv's in a dark area complete with couches and demo material running. Even so, you'd expect some consistency.
post #229 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

Maybe it's that the store I stop at is a Magnolia store, so they have the same area that imagic describes with the high end tv's in a dark area complete with couches and demo material running. Even so, you'd expect some consistency.



Yes I think that's explains a lot smile.gif and the next time I'm in Philly I will stop in the Magnolia store in king of Prussia.
post #230 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Someone who wants to watch football on a Sunday afternoon in a brightly lit living room using a 80-inch screen that costs under $4000 is an idiot? Should they get a 65" plasma instead, run it at maximum brightness, and hope the network logo doesn't cause IR? Perhaps if that buyer had self-identified as a movie buff, the decision could be called into question. Otherwise, there's nothing idiotic about the purchasing decisions many people make—it's all a compromise in the end.

That has nothing to do with his point at all.

They're not buying LCD's because it's "brighter" and "fits the environment better than plasmas". They know (and don't care) nothing about that. It's the misconceptions of plasmas why most buy LCD's over plasmas.
post #231 of 392
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post


That has nothing to do with his point at all.

They're not buying LCD's because it's "brighter" and "fits the environment better than plasmas". They know (and don't care) nothing about that. It's the misconceptions of plasmas why most buy LCD's over plasmas.

Some people do buy LCDs because the technology suits their needs, after researching the topic. Same goes for plasma.

Most people buy LCDs over plasmas because LCDs are cheaper and available at smaller sizes—also they weigh less and consume less power. On the other side of things, LCDs are also available at larger sizes than plasma. That consideration alone explains many LCD HDTV purchases.


Edited by imagic - 10/18/13 at 8:45am
post #232 of 392
Not to mention that a TV buyer that does even minimal research on the internet or talks to a sales person or even a friend that has some knowledge of TV's will soon learn that plasma technology is going away in the near future. Now some will say buy one while you can and others will say why take a chance when support may be iffy.
post #233 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Not to mention that a TV buyer that does even minimal research on the internet or talks to a sales person or even a friend that has some knowledge of TV's will soon learn that plasma technology is going away in the near future. Now some will say buy one while you can and others will say why take a chance when support may be iffy.



That's why I'm going for the Paul'sTV extended warranty, just in case wink.gif
post #234 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

That has nothing to do with his point at all.

They're not buying LCD's because it's "brighter" and "fits the environment better than plasmas". They know (and don't care) nothing about that. It's the misconceptions of plasmas why most buy LCD's over plasmas.

I think there is much truth to what you are saying but it's never quite that simple, on the defense of the average consumer some of the legacy Plasma issues however greatly reduced still hold true. And all this must be told to the consumer when qualifying them for the sale purchase. Plasmas put out allot more heat and consume more energy then LCD's do, additionally they are usually heavier and not as thin, which people like for wall mounting and aesthetic purposes. Samsung has made a fortune in the thin LED arena profile making them super ultra thin by using edge-lit technology. High sales figures show that people are just eating this all up, they can't get enough of it and the display is never to power efficient or to thin for people it would seem. However for the true video enthusiast who know's better the sacrifice in picture quality is unacceptable. But for the average layman person looking for a new TV right now they won't know the difference, or in some cases won't even care. The most important features to them are the looks, the super thin futuristic design that looks good in their home of course biggrin.gif the very (affordable) price, and something that they can do all their stuff on without any worry of issues down the road. To the average joe it's the best thing since sliced bread. wink.gif

So while Plasmas still have some of the old legacy issues, mainly image retention, buzzing or humming, heating, higher power consumption, and yes although not very likely or common anymore possible screen burn, 9 out of 10 people will most certainly choose the LED over Plasma because they just don't want to have to worry about these things. Especially with similar picture quality and pricing and if not for no other reason than to just have that peace of mind while playing their video games. biggrin.gif

Summing this all up LED's have come way down in price as a welcome and logical alternative for the consumers and we can't blame them, it's probably going to be the same scenario with OLED vs LED in the near future but well have to wait and see what happens down the road though.

PS: OLED is off to a good start with a positive outlook among the people so far, and once all the major issues are worked out assuming they can be worked out the potential for less power consumption, thinner more futuristic looking profiles, better picture quality, it's a combination winner. The only thing holding back OLED right now is the high cost associated with it, but once that comes down it will all fall into place I think. cool.gif
post #235 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

That's why I'm going for the Paul'sTV extended warranty, just in case wink.gif
Check out the warranties from Square D. I've had several and Square D is Costco's choice.
post #236 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Check out the warranties from Square D. I've had several and Square D is Costco's choice.



I will before I choose one, thanks Andy.
You meant square trade warranties right?
Edited by comfynumb - 10/18/13 at 11:37am
post #237 of 392
A lot of people just aren't that particular about PQ. Period.

Heck, I meet people who still say they can't tell the difference between SD and HD. I don't know how you can't see the difference unless you're blind or darn close to it, but they exists, in my family even! For them, any TV will do. However, I think a majority of people do see the difference between SD and HD.

Looking at the wall of TVs in the store it can be difficult to discern which TV is "better" so people shop based on size, price, aesthetics, and features. That's my opinion. You don't find high-end models like the VT60 or the F8500 in a lot of stores, so that is going to instantly hurt those sales, but that is to be expected, as they don't intend to sell a large number of the high-end sets. Still, plasmas are in a lot of stores, but a dim plasma next to a bright LED is not impressing shoppers. And with some lower-end plasmas having no AR filter they reflect the lights in the store and you can practically style your hair in front of them if you want.
post #238 of 392
RadTech51, you took the words right out of my mouth. Well said.
post #239 of 392
So what internal TV components have the most effect on PQ? For instance, why does one edge lit LED/LCD get a better picture than another. besides the actual screen? Is it the video processor? Who makes the best and are they so expensive that everybody can't use the best.
post #240 of 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

So what internal TV components have the most effect on PQ? For instance, why does one edge lit LED/LCD get a better picture than another. besides the actual screen? Is it the video processor? Who makes the best and are they so expensive that everybody can't use the best.
Maybe you should start a new thread.
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