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Denon 4520ci or Yamaha a3020???

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 
Its time to retire my trusty Marantz sr6001 but can't make a decision. I am asking the experts here if you own or had experience with each to give me some advice. I am also considering the Marantz sr7007 as they are going for a great price now. Thanks in advanced!



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post #2 of 17
Depends on whether you would use the AVR's auto EQ. The Denon 4520CI is the current flagship Denon model which uses the most advanced version of Audyssey ( MultEQ XT32) with 32x more speaker filter resolution than MultEQ XT used in the 7007 which would result in a noticeable difference in audio quality. The Yamaha uses their own brand of EQ, YPAO so depends on which you prefer and which has all the features you require.

Also note that thru Oct 31, Denon has a special going that if you purchase the 4520CI from an authorized dealer (like AVScience), you also get the Denon DBT-3313CI BDP (MSRP $1099) for FREE. smile.gif
post #3 of 17
Thread Starter 
Wow buddy thank you for the heads up and great advice.

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post #4 of 17
I would like to go Yamaha's way but for me it comes down to the above, or more precisely, there's simply not enough EQing going on in the most important area with their room correction: the subwoofers. I believe it dead stops at 30 or 40 hz which is grossly unacceptable to me in a multi-thousand dollar AVR in 2013/14.

Further, as a big 11 channel guy, I believe DTS NEO X will be taking off in the coming year and the Yamaha- while offering its own 11 channel processing- lacks the NEO X that AVRs will need to iron out its discreet (or semi discreet) additional channels.

To be really honest- and aside from debatable DACs, video processing chips, and other iffy-to-be-discerned sound components- I don't see what the Yamaha offers over a unit like the Denon 4520. And before someone flames me on the aforementioned, please understand that I firmly believe DACs are a long perfected (or very close to perfected) technology and that video processing is rarely superior in an AVR and even then RARELY discernible on typical screen sizes at typical viewing distances. That's my experience...one's money is better spent focusing on tangible, readily identifiable aspects.

Good luck.

James
post #5 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I would like to go Yamaha's way but for me it comes down to the above, or more precisely, there's simply not enough EQing going on in the most important area with their room correction: the subwoofers. I believe it dead stops at 30 or 40 hz which is grossly unacceptable to me in a multi-thousand dollar AVR in 2013/14.

James

Before you decide that "limited" frequency range EQ is an issue you might want to do some math to see if it even affects your room, regardless of what AVR you choose.

The wavelength formula you need to concern yourself with is:

1130 ft/sec divided by the frequency you are worried about = distance of one dimension

so if you are concerned about the frequencies < 40Hz your room size needs to be larger than 28.25 feet (in one dimension) .

40Hz = 28.25 ft
39Hz = 28.97 ft
...
30Hz = 37.67 ft

most (small) rooms are dominated by one large peak and one large null in the frequency range of about 45-120Hz. Cut the peak and find a way to eliminate the null (try not to boost) and you should be good to go.

Some good reference material is here:

Real Traps - Bass Waves in the Control Room

Harman's Room Modes Calculator

Room Modes Calculator

Hope this helps. Cheers.

Tony
post #6 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldiggi View Post

Its time to retire my trusty Marantz sr6001 but can't make a decision. I am asking the experts here if you own or had experience with each to give me some advice. I am also considering the Marantz sr7007 as they are going for a great price now. Thanks in advanced!



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If you like the sound from Marantz; its more probable you would like the same from Denon also as both brands are now owned by the same parent company.
post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKO1 View Post

Before you decide that "limited" frequency range EQ is an issue you might want to do some math to see if it even affects your room, regardless of what AVR you choose.

The wavelength formula you need to concern yourself with is:

1130 ft/sec divided by the frequency you are worried about = distance of one dimension

so if you are concerned about the frequencies < 40Hz your room size needs to be larger than 28.25 feet (in one dimension) .

40Hz = 28.25 ft
39Hz = 28.97 ft
...
30Hz = 37.67 ft

most (small) rooms are dominated by one large peak and one large null in the frequency range of about 45-120Hz. Cut the peak and find a way to eliminate the null (try not to boost) and you should be good to go.

Some good reference material is here:

Real Traps - Bass Waves in the Control Room

Harman's Room Modes Calculator

Room Modes Calculator

Hope this helps. Cheers.

Tony

So in rooms with no dimension longer than 30 feet (about 97+% of American living rooms) there is nothing to be gained below 40hz with a cutting edge room correction system like Audyssey? confused.gif

I guess I'll leave out your example of a large null and peak that would obviously see such correction from an RC system that EQs that low...as the 2 in 15x16 room do.


James
post #8 of 17
Quote:
Before you decide that "limited" frequency range EQ is an issue you might want to do some math to see if it even affects your room, regardless of what AVR you choose.

The wavelength formula you need to concern yourself with is:

1130 ft/sec divided by the frequency you are worried about = distance of one dimension

so if you are concerned about the frequencies < 40Hz your room size needs to be larger than 28.25 feet (in one dimension) .

40Hz = 28.25 ft
39Hz = 28.97 ft
...
30Hz = 37.67 ft

most (small) rooms are dominated by one large peak and one large null in the frequency range of about 45-120Hz. Cut the peak and find a way to eliminate the null (try not to boost) and you should be good to go.

I think you have never used REW or you wouldn't post what you did.
post #9 of 17
^ Pretty. Much.

James
post #10 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I think you have never used REW or you wouldn't post what you did.

FWIW I have > 30 years of experience in the signals field. I have used some of the most expensive analog and digital measuring gear ever manufactured. I have used and have REW on my laptop along with other professional measuring software.

But since you obviously didn't read the references I pointed to to try and help you out I thought I would offer the following quote from Dr. Floyd Toole:
Quote:
A simple implementation of these principles exists in the Infinity Room Adaptive Bass Optimization System (R.A.B.O.S.TM), in which powered woofers and subwoofers are equipped with a single band of parametric equalization. Supplied with the loudspeakers is a CD of test signals, a sound level meter, and a clever device for identifying the Q, or bandwidth, of a problem resonance. Straightforward instructions, or automated website calculations, lead the customer or installer through a sequence of operations aimed at identifying and attenuating the single most objectionable room resonance. In practice, most rooms exhibit only a single powerful resonance, so a single filter can be a great improvement. The system is designed to attenuate only, so the uninitiated cannot try to fill acoustical cancellation holes
in the frequency response.

You can find this in his excellent essay: Audio Science on Page 26.

YMMV

Cheers.
post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

So in rooms with no dimension longer than 30 feet (about 97+% of American living rooms) there is nothing to be gained below 40hz with a cutting edge room correction system like Audyssey? confused.gif

I guess I'll leave out your example of a large null and peak that would obviously see such correction from an RC system that EQs that low...as the 2 in 15x16 room do.


James

If you ran the calculator you would see that it lists all modes but, here's the clue... you aren't sitting in all modes, you are only sitting in one in relation to the speaker/subwoofer locations and it might actually be a 1/4 or 3/4 wavelength which could mean the mode is irrelevant.

Some room EQ is excellent if used properly and in trying to fix those things it is designed to fix. Audyssey, IMHO, isn't one of them.

Cheers.
post #12 of 17
Quote:
FWIW I have > I have used and have REW on my laptop along with other professional measuring software.

So have I and I don't find your theory to be valid. My room is 16X12X10 (WXDXH)
post #13 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

So have I and I don't find your theory to be valid. My room is 16X12X10 (WXDXH)

It is not a theory. In the room calculator with your dimensions there is only 1 possible mode under 40Hz and none under 30Hz.

Cheers.
post #14 of 17
Thread Starter 
It's so tempting going for the Marantz 7007. They are going for a grand out there now. Thanks so much for all the input. I have some thinking to do.


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post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 
http://www.independentaudiovideo.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1010784

What do you guys think of this for the Marantz 7008? Its right in my budget but never purchased from this place before.

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post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldiggi View Post

http://www.independentaudiovideo.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1010784

What do you guys think of this for the Marantz 7008? Its right in my budget but never purchased from this place before.

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Never heard of them. But by going by their rating that is a used 7008. Check their "about us" page.
post #17 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldiggi View Post

http://www.independentaudiovideo.com/store/item_view.asp?estore_itemid=1010784

What do you guys think of this for the Marantz 7008? Its right in my budget but never purchased from this place before.

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Not only is that a "used" unit, but that seller is not listed as an "authorized" Marantz dealer so there would be no valid mfr warranty either.
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