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HDMI ARC CABLE PROBLEMS

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 

HELLO SIR,

   IM USING PANASONIC LCD TV AND PHILIPS HTB3570 HOME THEATRE. I CONNECTED IT USING HDMI ARC PORT USING HDMI CABLE. I FOUND ITS NOT WORKING. SUDDENLY THE HDMI CABLE I USED FOR MY STB TO TV SEEMED WORKING. AND THAT AGAIN STOPPED WORKING ALL OF A SUDDEN. KINDLY HELP ME.. WHAT IS THE SOLUTION FOR THIS

post #2 of 33
What "doesn't work?" Are you trying to get (a) audio from the TV to the Philips, (b) audio from the STB to the Phillips, or (c) video from the Philips to the TV?
post #3 of 33
Thread Starter 

hdmi 1 - set top box to tv

hdmi 2 (arc) - tv to blue ray dvd

 

for now im using rca cable to connect between tv (panasonic)  and blue ray dvd (philips)..

i find no audio through hdmi cable connected between dvd and tv... 

post #4 of 33
Does your home theater system support ARC? If so, have you configured both devices to enable it?
post #5 of 33
ARC is not supported with HDMI 1.3 cables, for what it's worth.
post #6 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by heresnowhy View Post

ARC is not supported with HDMI 1.3 cables, for what it's worth.

Hi heresnowhy, all HDMI versions are fully backward compatible with all previous versions. Cables are either High Speed or Standard Speed so either can pass ARC audio.
post #7 of 33
+1

HDMI versions refer to the transmitting and receiving devices, not to the cables connecting them.
post #8 of 33
Not true. I had to replace nearly all of my 1.3 cables when they simply did not work with ARC.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/
post #9 of 33
It's not to say that a 1.3 wont' support ARC, so I'll correct my statement. Having said that, the specification wasn't declared until 1.4 therefore I would call it a crap shoot if a 1.3 would work with ARC or not. A brief scan of the web for information will support this. I am clearly not the only one who couldn't get a 1.3 HDMI cable to work with ARC.
post #10 of 33
No. Here's what HDMI.org says about cables and 1.4:
Quote:
Will any of the new HDMI 1.4 features require a new cable?
The HDMI Ethernet Channel feature will require a new cable that supports this functionality, either a Standard HDMI Cable with Ethernet or a High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet, depending on the maximum resolution to be supported. The Automotive Connection System will also employ a new class of cable, the Standard Automotive HDMI cable, which is designed specifically for automotive use. All of the other new HDMI 1.4 features will be compatible with the existing categories of cables.

And...
Quote:
Will I need a new cable to support Audio Return Channel functionality?
No. Audio Return Channel -enabled devices can be connected via all the existing categories of HDMI cables.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hdmi_1_4_faq.aspx#5
Edited by BIslander - 10/20/13 at 8:05am
post #11 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by heresnowhy View Post

Not true. I had to replace nearly all of my 1.3 cables when they simply did not work with ARC.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/

As noted by that link you posted, the HDMI spec refers to the "device" not to the cable which is why the HDMI.org now require all cable mfr's to not use an HDMI spec on the cable as it doesn't matter whether it's HDMI 1.3 or HDMI 1.4 as far as ARC is concerned.
post #12 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

Hi heresnowhy, all HDMI versions are fully backward compatible with all previous versions. Cables are either High Speed or Standard Speed so either can pass ARC audio.

While this certainly is true, I don't see how in any remote way it applies to what I was stating. If you are using the oldest know version of a cable, how does being backward compatible apply? It was the first cable.
post #13 of 33
Hey. Just trying to offer the guy some assistance. I spent nearly four hours troubleshooting this with my system. After calling the manufacturer and being instructed the model number cable I had most likely didn't support the function, I changed them. It worked instantly. I can replicate the ARC not functioning on all three of my systems by simply inserting any of my HDMI cables with 1.3 stamped clearly on the jacket.
post #14 of 33
Oh my. You can use an ancient cable for all the new features, except Ethernet. High speed cables, which have been common for many years, are recommended for 1080p video and 3D, although standard cables will likely work for them too over short distances.

Bottom line: cables have nothing to do with whether or not ARC works. Nothing. HDMI.org went so far as to ban the use of version numbers on cable jackets and in cable marketing to prevent this sort of confusion.
post #15 of 33
this is a very informative read.... very...

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/hdmi-spec-versions.htm?hdmidept

this being the main difference,
" The basic characteristics of standard HDMI cables have not changed from one spec version to another. They have the same conductors, in the same configuration, wired to the connector in the same manner. There is only one qualification to offer here: with HDMI 1.4 the spec introduced a new optional "Ethernet and Audio Return Channel" feature, which does require slight changes in cable architecture. Because this is an optional feature, however, compliance with the 1.4 specification, in itself, says nothing about whether a compliant HDMI cable will support this feature."
but to fully understand one should read the entire following article, from bluejeanscable.

What Do These HDMI Spec Versions (1.2, 1.3, 1.3a, 1.4, etc.) Mean to my HDMI cable?
Many people are worried, when buying HDMI cable, about the spec version of the cable in question. Is it the latest spec version? Will it support all the features of the devices it's hooked to? Most of the fears and doubts associated with this question are unfounded, but there are some interesting issues with regard to HDMI spec version, and we'll sort those out here.

What Are The Spec Versions?
At this writing (February 2010) there have been six versions of the principal HDMI spec document. Additionally, however, some references to specs are not to the principal HDMI spec document, but to the "Compliance Testing Specification" document, and there have been six versions of that document. The versions of the two, to date, are:

HDMI Specifications:
HDMI Specification 1.1
HDMI Specification 1.2
HDMI Specification 1.2a
HDMI Specification 1.3
HDMI Specification 1.3a
HDMI Specification 1.4
HDMI Compliance Testing Specifications:
Compliance Test Specification 1.1
Compliance Test Specification 1.2a
Compliance Test Specification 1.3a
Compliance Test Specification 1.3b
Compliance Test Specification 1.3b1
Compliance Test Specification 1.3c
Compliance Test Specification 1.4
The HDMI Licensing authority ordinarily allows anyone to download a copy of the current version of the main HDMI spec document from its site at hdmi.org. For some reason, however, HDMI, LLC does not authorize release of the Compliance Test Specification to the general public. That's unfortunate, because it's in the CTS that the details of compliance testing are contained, and there can be some significance to that.

There is some room for confusion here. We are sometimes asked whether our cable is 1.3a or 1.3b compliant. As you can see, there is no such thing as "HDMI 1.3b." But the Compliance Test Spec does have a 1.3b version, as well as a 1.3c version (testing for cables was unaffected by these minor CTS revisions, except that 1.3c adds new criteria for "active" cables). Our Belden HDMI cables have been tested under main spec version 1.3a, CTS version 1.3b (and, in the case of our Series-1 Category 1 approval, CTS version 1.3b1). What about 1.4? Well, we are working on cables which will implement the 1.4 Ethernet channel; but, as will be explained further below, a cable which complies with 1.3 (or, for that matter, any prior spec version) is also compliant with 1.4.

What Hasn't Changed:
With all these spec versions around, and equipment and cables having been designed and tested in accordance with one version or another of the spec, it's natural that people worry about the compatibility of equipment and cables. Device compatibility is a complicated subject and is really outside our area of expertise, but when it comes to cables, we can give some reassurance. The basic characteristics of standard HDMI cables have not changed from one spec version to another. They have the same conductors, in the same configuration, wired to the connector in the same manner. There is only one qualification to offer here: with HDMI 1.4 the spec introduced a new optional "Ethernet and Audio Return Channel" feature, which does require slight changes in cable architecture. Because this is an optional feature, however, compliance with the 1.4 specification, in itself, says nothing about whether a compliant HDMI cable will support this feature.

Apart from the Ethernet/Audio Return Channel, what this means is that, in terms of supporting features and protocols (e.g., HDCP, Deep Color, x.v.YCC colorspace, new multichannel audio formats), all HDMI cables have been designed to the same standard, no matter what specification version they were designed or tested under. In other words, if you have a cable which was certified compliant under one spec version, and you now buy a new DVD player which is 1.4 compliant, there is no need to replace your HDMI cable to "upgrade" to the new version. Your cable will go on working.

HDCP: a Cable Non-Issue:
You'll also see, sometimes, references to gear being "HDCP compliant," meaning that it supports copy-protection features. This can be meaningful where source, display and repeater devices are concerned, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with cables. All HDMI cables are HDCP compliant, because the signals which constitute HDCP run on the same conductors that carry the other parts of the HDMI signal. A cable incapable of carrying HDCP would be incapable of carrying any signal at all.

So, What Has Changed?
Plenty of things have indeed changed from one version to another of the spec documents, but only a handful of them have to do with cables; and of those which have to do with cables, quite a few of the changes are minor, insignificant things--nothing affecting performance in any substantial way. But there are some changes to the requirements expected of cables, and to the way that compliance with those requirements is tested, and these can be meaningful. These changes happened at the switch from main spec version 1.2a and 1.3, so there really are, for practical purposes, only two sorts of HDMI spec compliance for cables: 1.2a and before, and 1.3 and after.

Treatment of HDMI Cable "Speed"
In spec versions 1.1 to 1.2a, a manufacturer submitting a cable for testing was entitled to declare a stated bandwidth or "maximum frequency" for the cable. This stated maximum frequency would be given by the manufacturer in MHz, representing the clock speed, and the actual bitrate it represents would be ten times that--so, for example, 74.25 MHz, which represents 720p or 1080i, would equate to 742.5Mbps. This had a substantial impact upon the cable's ability to pass compliance testing, as we'll explain.

Under all versions of the spec, a cable submitted for testing is subjected to two separate testing regimens, and if it passes either, it is deemed compliant even if it fails the other. The first of these is what's called an "eye-pattern" test, where an actual signal representing a "worst-case" source device output is fed through the cable, and the output at the other end of the cable is measured graphically on an oscilloscope. The second is a series of "parametric" tests where various attributes of the cable are measured, such as skew, crosstalk and attenuation. A significant difference between these types of testing, under 1.1 through 1.2a of both the main spec and the Compliance Testing Spec was that the eye-pattern test was run at a frequency determined by the cable's stated bandwidth, while the parametric tests, to the extent they depend upon frequency, were run at frequencies which were fixed and which did not depend upon the cable's stated bandwidth.

Differences in bitrate make a tremendous difference to eye-pattern results. Consequently, a cable could be tested at 480i or 480p, and could be certified at a much longer length than would have passed spec at 720p or 1080i because the bitrate is just over a third of the 720p/1080i bitrate. But a vendor did not necessarily need to share with the consumer the information concerning the bandwidth under which testing was passed, and consequently, one could not know what a certification meant. What length was certified as HDMI spec compliant, and at what bandwidth?

Under spec version 1.3 and later, this ambiguity is much reduced. A manufacturer can still submit any length of cable he wants, and he can still specify the bandwidth, but he has only two choices in bandwidth, which are "Category 1" and "Category 2." Under Category 1, the cable must either pass the eye-pattern test at 74.25MHz (742.5Mbps) or the parametric tests; under Category 2, the cable must pass eye-pattern tests at 165MHz and 340MHz (the latter test being aided somewhat by application of some software equalization to the output signal) or pass a stricter set of parametric tests. If you know the length of the HDMI cable and the testing Category, you have a pretty good idea what the result means.

HDMI Licensing

Eye Pattern Test Strictness
The other substantial change which came about in the 1.2 to 1.3 changeover had to do with the conditions under which the eye-pattern testing is run. This change is, oddly, not reflected anywhere in the main spec document, and consequently, seems to be known almost to no one except those who do the testing. Instead, the change is buried deep in the details of the description of the Compliance Test Specification procedure for running eye-pattern tests.

As we've mentioned above, an eye-pattern test begins with a test signal being fed into a cable, and the result is read with a high-frequency oscilloscope which samples the waveform as it comes out of the other end of the cable. Needless to say, the quality and amplitude of the signal coming out of the cable is dependent on the quality and amplitude of the signal that goes into the cable. Under CTS 1.2a and before, the "swing" voltage of the test signal was 500 millivolts--that is, a "1" was signalled by a voltage of +250mv, and a "0" was signalled by a voltage of -250mv. Under CTS 1.3a and after, the swing voltage is 400mv, ranging from +200mv to -200mv. In other words, the signal is about 20% (about 1 dB) weaker when it goes into the cable, and it will come out about 20% weaker. But while the signal going into the cable "shrank" by 20%, the required output signal spec did not change at all. A cable that marginally passed the eye-pattern test under 1.2 will fail under 1.3.

Ethernet Channel
Specification version 1.4 introduced the new optional "Ethernet and Audio Return Channel." Unlike prior changes to the features and protocols supported by the spec, this change actually requires some alteration to the HDMI cable design. The connectors remain the same, and the pins still map as they did before, but two conductors have been given new additional tasks to perform, and because the bitrate to run through these conductors is rather high, the specification requires that they be run as a 100-ohm twisted pair. Prior cable designs did not run these conductors as a twisted pair, and so the impedance of the pair in a non-Ethernet cable could be almost anything, most likely unsuited for high-speed data.

It is important to remember that the Ethernet and Audio Return Channel is an optional HDMI cable feature. In other words, a cable which was compliant under any prior spec version continues to be compliant under HDMI 1.4 -- it is simply classified as a cable without Ethernet -- and new cables can continue to be certified compliant under HDMI 1.4 and its accompanying Compliance Testing Specification, again as non-Ethernet-capable cables. The version number of the certification does not in itself say anything about the cable's capabilities.

Is that Really All?
Yes, that's it. There have been some other minor edits and revisions, but those don't really go to the substance of the spec, and don't affect compliance testing. As we've indicated above, there is no reason to worry about your HDMI cable failing to support a new feature, apart from the Ethernet channel, because it was designed under a prior spec version; the only thing that is a potential area of concern is that as the bandwidth being pushed through HDMI cables increases, the likelihood of failure increases as well, and a cable which was perfectly adequate to carry 480i under 1.1 may not work properly when fed 1080p deep-color video.

HDMI Licensing Position on Cable Lengths, and Noncompliant Cable Being Sold:
The HDMI documentation has said since Compliance Testing Spec version 1.2a that cables incorporating the HDMI trademarks must have passed Authorized Testing Center ("ATC") compliance testing at the longest length placed on the market. The HDMI Licensing documentation is, however, something of a muddle; the Adopter Agreement doesn't impose such a requirement, and doesn't appear to leave room for such a requirement, in that it only requires Authorized Testing Center testing of an Adopter's first product in a "Category" ("Category," for this purpose, meaning type of product, e.g., source or cable) and then permits the Adopter to market further products in that Category without additional testing; and the Compliance Testing Spec isn't disclosed prior to entry into the Adopter Agreement, and so there is an interesting legal question whether anyone is actually bound by provisions it contains which are in conflict with the main Agreement. Consequently, the obligations of HDMI Spec Adopters are somewhat unclear.

What is not unclear, however, is that a lot of noncompliant HDMI cable is sold bearing HDMI trademarks. Blue Jeans Cable currently holds an HDMI compliance certificate under 1.3a (CTS 1.3b1) for a 45-foot long cable, and this is, to our knowledge, the longest distance at which any passive cable (that is, one not incorporating an amplifier) has ever passed ATC testing. We are regularly contacted by manufacturers and vendors of HDMI cable, and we routinely ask them for their compliance certificates (which, incidentally, seems to end about half of the conversations; we never get a compliance certificate from quite a few vendors). To date, we have never seen any compliance certificate for a cable, in any gauge, as long as our 45-footer, under any version of the spec. We have seen 40-foot certificates under 1.2 (without indication of the testing bandwidth), and of course since the test signal amplitude dropped about 20% under 1.3, it's likely that the cables bearing those 1.2 certificates would not pass the 1.3 testing at 40 feet.

It's important to bear this in mind. There's no such thing as a cable type being deemed, categorically, HDMI compliant. Cable assemblies are deemed compliant after they have passed testing at a particular length, and are deemed compliant for that length and shorter lengths. But just because a manufacturer has passed compliance testing, that doesn't mean that he's passed it for the length of cable he's selling you. How to know? Ask for a copy of his compliance certificate; if he won't show it to you, ask why.

There are a lot of 50-foot HDMI cables in the world with the HDMI trademarks stamped on them. But how many are compliant? Likely, based on what we have seen, none. If anyone has a 50-foot compliance certificate, he ought to be waving it in the air and bragging about it; the fact that there seems to be nobody doing so is perhaps as good an indicator as any that there are no compliant cables at that distance (we exclude from this remark, by the way, "active" cables incorporating amplifier circuits; it's possible to extend distance somewhat with a booster/EQ unit, but our current discussion is for pure "passive" cables, made out of nothing but wire and plastic). If anyone knows of one--and can produce an Authorized Testing Center certificate--we'd like to know about it.

New HDMI Licensing Guidelines for Cable Labeling
HDMI Licensing, LLC, the organization that licenses the HDMI trademarks to the various HDMI Adopters, has issued new guidelines as of November, 2009 for labeling of HDMI cables. Some of these rules are mandatory immediately (e.g., cable vendors should not call a cable "1.4 compliant."), while others come into effect in a year, and all are directed at reducing consumer confusion over cables. For regular non-automotive HDMI cables, there are now four categories of cable, and a cable is supposed to be labeled accordingly. A cable may be labeled "Standard Speed" or "High Speed", and it may either be labeled "with Ethernet" or not. HDMI Licensing feels that the use of version numbers has caused quite a bit of confusion for the consumer, and the objective here is to simplify things so that a consumer can easily know whether the cable he is buying will support the application to which he intends to put it. With any luck, these new labeling standards will indeed make things much clearer for the consumer of HDMI cable.
Edited by ljmart - 10/25/13 at 1:24am
post #16 of 33
i use this http://www.amazon.com/Accell-B146C-007B-Ultra-Thin-6-6-Feet-Ethernet/dp/B00B3T6C5Y/ref=sr_1_18?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1382690693&sr=1-18&keywords=accell+pro+ultra+hdmi
as the inputs on my tv are near the side edge so the low profile connector works very well in my application
post #17 of 33
Hi - wasn't sure whether I should start a new thread or continue in this one given my issues are similar:

Panasonic ST50A with TV antenna connected directly
Pioneer VSK-521 receiver

These are cabled together with HDMI from the TV's HDMI2 input to the Receivers only HDMI "Output"

I have enabled ARC within the receiver using the on-screen menu. "Control" i.e. CEC was already enabled.

All Vieralink options are enabled on the TV, yet when I go to the Vieralink app it says "Feature Not Available". The remote's for either device also seem to not work for the other device at all.

From what was posted above I'm a bit confused... surely the Vieralink would at least work but not ARC if it was an incorrect type of cable. It's just a cheapy 3m cable that came with my wall-mount from eBay.

Any ideas? :/
post #18 of 33
It's not the cable. Any cable can be used for ARC.
post #19 of 33
I thought it was CEC that was common on all cables but Ethernet and ARC required 1.4 due to some pin change?

Although that still doesn't explain why I got a Vieralink error... that would surely mean that there was no CEC heartbeat working at all between the TV and amp :/

Is it possible that if the cable is so marginal that it's only just good enough to display signal etc that the heartbeat might not get through?
post #20 of 33
Ethernet requires a special cable, although there are no commercial products that support that at this time. ARC is supported over all HDMI cables.

ARC is an optional feature of HDMI 1.4. Are you sure your TV has implemented ARC? The error message you get suggests that it may not.
post #21 of 33
Yeh it's definately supported - I checked the manual, but also other users confirmd it. The error I'm getting suggests even basic CEC/Vieralink isn't working though!

I've had CEC working earlier with the Raspberry Pi running RaspbMC - but that was with a different HDMI cable
post #22 of 33
So sure enough - it was the cable. I bought a new 5m 1.4 cable.. swapped it over and bang - everything worked immedately.

Just FYI for those people automatically claiming that the cable doesn't matter - perhaps it's the fact that marginal cables might be just marginal enough so that the heartbeat is not establishing fully even though the cable is good enough for regular picture/sound signal. Something to remember - always check your assumptions!
post #23 of 33
A bad cable is a bad cable. btw, there's no such thing as a 1.4 cable. Version numbers refer to the equipment at both ends of the cable, not to the cable itself.
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

A bad cable is a bad cable. btw, there's no such thing as a 1.4 cable. Version numbers refer to the equipment at both ends of the cable, not to the cable itself.

Ah yep true. Just worth noting though that you can't tell a cable is working 100% just by using it to display picture. Perhaps the CEC signals are occupying a more sensitive part of the signal frequency and therefore are more susceptible to cable issues.
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

It's not the cable. Any cable can be used for ARC.

Patently false, as I now have 4 different HDMI cables that REFUSE to function with ARC. Forget the version numbers, though they are older. They simply do NOT work, and it's easily replicated.
post #26 of 33
And why do you blame all those cables?

HDMI.org - you know, the organization responsible for HDMI - says new cables are not needed for ARC, that any certified cable will work:
All HDMI cables will support Audio Return Channel functionality when connected to Audio Return Channel-enabled devices. You can use your existing HDMI cables or choose a different cable type

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/arc.aspx
post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

And why do you blame all those cables?

HDMI.org - you know, the organization responsible for HDMI - says new cables are not needed for ARC, that any certified cable will work:
All HDMI cables will support Audio Return Channel functionality when connected to Audio Return Channel-enabled devices. You can use your existing HDMI cables or choose a different cable type

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/arc.aspx

Because they are the only variable in the loop. I can insert anyone of these cables into a functioning ARC system and cripple it. Every Time. No amount of internet articles debating it will EVER get them to function.
post #28 of 33
I guess those cables just don't like you.

Internet articles? You mean specifications from the controlling organization that happen to be published on the Internet?
post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

I guess those cables just don't like you.

They caused some grief, but considering I have 7 home theaters to troubleshoot with, it's safe to say my results aren't random.
post #30 of 33
You can't argue with actual testing. I have 2 cables that both function for transmitting audio and video perfectly fine. Only one works for CEC and it is repeatable.
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