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Is the Tempest the Sound I am Searching for? - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post

I have also heard that a more traditional tweeter may be actually more pleasing at moderate volume levels, and it's really only close to reference that people start to prefer the sound of a CD.

Obviously a bonehead statement by me. Haha! BassThatHz, awesome post. I always love reading your posts and those sound amazing. It would be great to hear something like that in person.
post #32 of 56
Thread Starter 
This is also why I love DIY. I live close to a high end audio store that carries Mcintosh, Wilson Audio, etc. I've heard Alexandrias, etc, and am amazed by the sound quality, engineering and designs developed by these companies and their incredible attention to detail. However, I am not a person that is in the habit of dropping $250K on an audio system. Nice to know with little sweat and hard work in the garage can get you a system with such an incredible value for a relatively modest investment (I know DIY can still get extremely expensive, but I'm simply speaking in relative terms here). I got a very small taste of that with the THT. Sure, it has it's limitations, but it was a lot of fun to build and I am extremely happy with it. Anyway, sorry to get off topic.

Still reading up on all these designs. Good stuff, guys.
post #33 of 56
Or just wait for tux 1099 seos speakers coming in a couple of months like I am biggrin.gif
post #34 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Or just wait for tux 1099 seos speakers coming in a couple of months like I am biggrin.gif

Tell me more...sounds intriguing. Do you have a link?
post #35 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by t3steve View Post

true Wayne claims the biggest improvement by going to the lower distortion woofer.

Many speaker manufactures will tell you to buy a more expensive model. wink.gif

I don't want to quote Jeff, but he did say something about the distortion differences between the Definimax and Delta Pro weren't really worth mentioning. I'm pretty sure he tested it on both woofers and the Definimax was indeed lower. But can it be heard even at high home audio levels by the average person?

Good woofer models/brands sound different because they're designed different, not necessarily because one has 5% less distortion at high volumes. I'd much rather be listening more for the distinct sound characteristics of 2 well designed woofers versus trying to hear where one starts to have less distortion. And that's what Jeff was talking about when he said he liked the sound of one over the other.


Having said all of that, I still fully understand why people will want a woofer with slightly better specs. The user just has to decide if they can hear the the difference.
Edited by Erich H - 10/15/13 at 9:00pm
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post

Tell me more...sounds intriguing. Do you have a link?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1479331/a-3-way-99db-multi-configurable-seos-design
post #37 of 56
^^^^ yep that's the link
post #38 of 56
"Many speaker manufactures will tell you to buy a more expensive model."

yeah...but in wayne's case i'm not sure it is because he makes any more or less money either way. specifically, he has talked about how similar the eminence 15" and the jbl 2226 sound at first pass. more similar than not. still a little different, but more similar than not. but after some time listening to them both, the jbl with the lower distortion motor is less fatiguing and that is what makes it worth the extra money. if distortion didn't matter, jbl, particularly the old school jbl engineers wouldn't have obsessed over it the way that they did.

in the case of the delta pro 12a vs the definimax, the difference in having a smaller coil with less normalized inductance and the benefits that has on for intermodulation distortion, clarity, and transient response, may be enough to offset the lower measured harmonic distortion of the definimax.
post #39 of 56
LTD02, I was talking about comparing 2 very well designed woofers. Not an $80 woofer versus a $400 woofer. biggrin.gif Of course there should be a difference in the Eminence 15" and the JBL 15" when one was designed purposely for lower distortion.

I'm saying that if you're comparing 2 higher end woofers with all the bells and whistles, the difference between them will be minimal when it comes to distortion. And at what volume would it take for one to pull away from the other. And at those volumes, could someone say they hear a 5% reduction in distortion? Or are they simply hearing the sound characteristic differences of the actual woofer?
post #40 of 56
"LTD02, I was talking about comparing 2 very well designed woofers. Not an $80 woofer versus a $400 woofer."

i understand that threads are all confusing and i am more guilty than anybody for getting lost, but that is exactly what we were discussing--wayne's comments about the difference in distortion between an eminence omega 15" and the jbl 2226h and how it figures into listener fatigue and that the difference in sound quality in an a-b comparison may be slight even negligible, but that difference seems to have a greater effect over time, as all those distortion components need to be filtered out by the brain for you to hear the music clearly.

linkwitz has talked about this phenomenon too. higher/lower distortion speakers sound the same initially, but over time, the one with the lower distortion is less mentally taxing.

matt observed the ever so slight difference in the b&c ps76 (higher distortion motor) vs the jbl 2226h and commented that is was almost too close to call. yet b&c also goes through the pain to put the same kind of distortion reducing mechanism in their higher end speakers (and dr. g. employs the 15tbx100 woofer in his summas despite the fact that it actually gives up some sensitivity in favor of being the driver with all the expensive distortion reducing mechanisms). maybe it is all just marketing. maybe there is actually a reason for it, even it isn't clear in a quick a-b comparison.

bagby was was probably picking up on the difference in transient response between the delta pro 12a and the definimax, so maybe the pro 12a sounds better initially, but who knows how that might change over time. i wouldn't be at all surprised if the pro 12a was indicated as being more live or more fun, but in the end the definimax was the speaker that got played long term.

that is why i used the term "tricky". these things are not well understood and suggesting that wayne or anybody else would be pushing the more expensive model simply for the sake of profit isn't being fair. i'm sure he makes more on the high end crossover parts too, but i have routinely seen him suggest that for most folks they aren't worth the additional cost.

fair enough?
Edited by LTD02 - 10/16/13 at 1:44am
post #41 of 56
Thread Starter 
Thank you all for your responses to this! I have been researching and researching and reading NON STOP and have finally decided to order some Tempests for my LCR. I'm going with flat packs and assembled crossovers just to make everything easy. However, just as I was getting read I started reading about the JBL 3677. I know these are a bit more expensive than the Tempests, and are a little bigger, but I am wondering how they would compare to the SEOS designs. I have searched and searched for some comparisons and I have found a lot of 4pi vs SEOS threads comparing the waveguides and other qualities, and from what I understand the 3677 is fairly similar to the base 4pi? And if I am going to spend a little more on the JBL to get an improvement in sound (maybe gains in midbass, overall dynamics, etc), should I stick with the SEOS but just go with something a little bigger like the Sentinel? Or does the Tempest offer me everything that the JBL will in my size room? Just wondering if anyone can give me some subjective comparisons between the two designs. Size is not really a factor for me so the JBL's size is not really a concern. I sold my Rockets and am really looking forward to that dynamic sound that I am reading so much about. Reading about the amazing vocal quality from the JBL also was very intriguing to me, as that is one of my major wants out of new speakers. I think one of the other reason why the JBL has always gotten my attention is because maybe 15 years ago or so I heard a JBL synthesis system at a local showcase and fell in love with the sound smile.gif

Just as a reminder, these are going into a sealed 3300 cubic foot room running of AVR power and I am using a single THT for LF.

Help!! I was so close to the end of my paralysis by analysis and now I feel like I just had a set back? Should I stay with my original plan or is the JBL a viable option for my needs? Thanks, guys.
post #42 of 56
You will always find a more expensive option. The tempests will be a huge upgrade over your rockets. Dozens of people have said there awesome . My alpha minions fill up my 3500 cu ft area. That's my two cents worth :screwy:
post #43 of 56
Thread Starter 
Great point. And I know I can just keep saying, well, I can get xyz speakers for xyz more price until I am blue in the face. The 3677 is definitely at the top of what I am wanting to spend, and no matter how much better the next better speaker is, I won't be buying because of price. However, with all of the good things that I've heard about the JBL's, I can't help but wonder if I build some Tempests, am I always going to be wondering if the JBLs could have been just a bit better (I really hate using that word when describing speakers, but hopefully you guys will forgive me and know what I am getting at). See, I ask these annoying questions to avoid buyers remorse smile.gif
post #44 of 56
Thread Starter 
After much deliberation, I decided to go with the tempests. However, I just learned that I can get the jbl 3677's for pretty much the exact same price as the entire tempest kit (flat packs, etc).

I also noticed that the jbl's range is from +/- 3db 45-12khz. Would I be missing anything in the 12 - 20 KHz range? I know I probably can't even hear anything that high...

Am I going to be missing anything with the seos kit that the jbl's could give me for the same price? Thanks to anyone who has any experience with these or is more familiar with reading the specs than I am. Just need a little confirmation of my decision here smile.gif
post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post

After much deliberation, I decided to go with the tempests. However, I just learned that I can get the jbl 3677's for pretty much the exact same price as the entire tempest kit (flat packs, etc).

I also noticed that the jbl's range is from +/- 3db 45-12khz. Would I be missing anything in the 12 - 20 KHz range? I know I probably can't even hear anything that high...

Am I going to be missing anything with the seos kit that the jbl's could give me for the same price? Thanks to anyone who has any experience with these or is more familiar with reading the specs than I am. Just need a little confirmation of my decision here smile.gif

I'll validate your decision. The drivers and XO's are high quality, and the flat pack is the best way to go unless you have mad wood working skills and lots of tools. Superb choice on the Tempests!

And not to worry, if you buy them and they aren't as good as you'd like, I'll take them off your hands for a couple hundred bucks. cool.gif
post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post

After much deliberation, I decided to go with the tempests. However, I just learned that I can get the jbl 3677's for pretty much the exact same price as the entire tempest kit (flat packs, etc).

I also noticed that the jbl's range is from +/- 3db 45-12khz. Would I be missing anything in the 12 - 20 KHz range? I know I probably can't even hear anything that high...

Am I going to be missing anything with the seos kit that the jbl's could give me for the same price? Thanks to anyone who has any experience with these or is more familiar with reading the specs than I am. Just need a little confirmation of my decision here smile.gif

Having 12 - 20 KHz range is very important IMO.

-My 2 cents.
post #47 of 56
Go with the tempest and then brag how good they sound :banghead:
post #48 of 56
Have you considered going with Wayne's 7Pi or 8Pi? If you have the room for them, I would bet they would be over and above what the JBL's can do. Otherwise, I think the Tempest is a wise choice.
post #49 of 56
Thread Starter 
Music to my ears. Thanks, guys! And I have looked at Wayne's designs as well, but just the 4pi, which I understand is fairly similar to the jbl's. I'll take a look...
post #50 of 56
Those 7&8 pi are hideous . Make the tempest look like kef blades :what:
post #51 of 56
in the right room, the corner horns probably outperform the 4pi's though.

if you REALLY want to avoid buyer's remorse, do this:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=182.0;nowap
post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

Those 7&8 pi are hideous . Make the tempest look like kef blades :what:

Yes I agree completely! Those 7Pi and 8Pi are ugly as sin, but, I bet they sound absolutely amazing!
post #53 of 56
Thread Starter 
Chalugadp, those blades are awesome!! Erich, do you make a flat pack for those?? Haha smile.gif And LTD02, why you gotta do that to me??
post #54 of 56
I'd go with the Tempest or 4 Pis, unless yoi have room for the cornerhorns. I'd honestly recommend the 4 Pis just for the fact that Americans can find the 2226 for less or equal the cost of the less expensive woofers, from eBay. I can understand not wanting to go used for people jumping into DIY, but its still really surprising that so few people have built the 2226 SEOS considering how good / cheap they are if you find em.
post #55 of 56

i got to say, i love the speaker! and the price is CHEAP in relation to the price :)

post #56 of 56
Thread Starter 
Hey kinodyret,

What speaker are you talking about? The tempest?
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