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Center Channel Distortion

post #1 of 77
Thread Starter 
Question for you guys,

When I watch movies, on an Oppo BDP-105, while using the Oppo's DAC's, I sometimes can hear what seems to be distortion through my center channel speaker. This doesn't seem to happen when I use Audyssey through my receiver. And when I listen to music, it doesn't seem to happen either when I use the DAC's on the Oppo or the Audyssey through my receiver, so long as I have the center channel turned down a little on the Oppo. Any thoughts on that? Is my center channel not powerful enough?

A Marantz SR6007 is my receiver, 7.1 setup with Atlantic Technology 2200 speakers. On my Oppo, the left and right speakers are -4db and the center is -8db, with the surrounds at 0db.

Thanks! biggrin.gif

(the center channel is an Atlantic Technology 2200C)

You can check the specs out here if that would be helpful: http://www.atlantictechnology.com/default.asp?NodeId=45
post #2 of 77
When you are using a good reference DAC from the Oppo 105 it is outputting clearer signal so your speakers distortion are being more pronounced. When you are using the avr's everything is dulled down to begin with, so your speakers distortion are not really being pronounced.

When you are listenng to music CD's, you are only getting fed 44.1 khz signal where when you watch bluray movies or HD, you are getting a higher sample rate so all your chain including your speaker cables and speakers get more transparent and apparent from distortion rate to all FR.

Its a matter of Hifi gear vs. AVR, nothing you can do about it unless you upgrade.
Edited by NAIM101 - 10/16/13 at 2:24am
post #3 of 77
Are you going straight from the Oppo BDP-105 into your amp? Or is the Oppo being fed into the receiver? Are you referring to using an HDMI connection, which would use the receives DAC's, versus the 7.1 analog inputs from the Oppo, which would use the Oppo's DAC's? I would bet that sometime is malfunctioning in the receiver as the distortion should be nearly identical with a digital versus analog connection.
post #4 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

When you are using a good reference DAC from the Oppo 105 it is outputting clearer signal so your speakers distortion are being more pronounced. When you are using the avr's everything is dulled down to begin with, so your speakers distortion are not really being pronounced.

When you are listenng to music CD's, you are only getting fed 44.1 khz signal where when you watch bluray movies or HD, you are getting a higher sample rate so all your chain including your speaker cables and speakers get more transparent and apparent from distortion rate to all FR.

Its a matter of Hifi gear vs. AVR, nothing you can do about it unless you upgrade.

So you're convinced that my Oppo supercedes the rest of my system by a good margin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Are you going straight from the Oppo BDP-105 into your amp? Or is the Oppo being fed into the receiver? Are you referring to using an HDMI connection, which would use the receives DAC's, versus the 7.1 analog inputs from the Oppo, which would use the Oppo's DAC's? I would bet that sometime is malfunctioning in the receiver as the distortion should be nearly identical with a digital versus analog connection.

Well, my receiver acts as my amp. So yes, to both. And I am using the analog outputs, and I turn on "pure" mode on my receiver in hopes it doesn't affect the signal.
And that's what I thought, I'm surprised the distortion seemed higher too. Maybe it's Audyssey?
post #5 of 77
Its not audessey. When you are using pure direct mode, the audessey and the other codes like Dolby and THX etc are doing the encoding so all your frequency signals are dulled down according to the thx or doby codes/modes. When you are using pure direct its bypassing all pre-digitized codes (dolby/thx) and outputting raw signal straight from the source (your cd's/bluray) so you are hearing distortion of the rest of your audio chain.

It goes two ways, one way is to NOT use the oppo 105 DACS and just go with your AVR, another way is to buy a good pair of speakers and good amp etc. You will get higher quality sound from the latter route, but you will spend a bit more and is a beggining point of hifi. biggrin.gif
post #6 of 77
Thread Starter 
Alright so can you help me understand a little better? Does the Oppo make it more demanding for my speakers simply by being more pronounced?
Ahhh gotcha! Is it my speakers that are the weakest link do you think? Or the Marantz?
post #7 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Its not audessey. When you are using pure direct mode, the audessey and the other codes like Dolby and THX etc are doing the encoding so all your frequency signals are dulled down according to the thx or doby codes/modes. When you are using pure direct its bypassing all pre-digitized codes (dolby/thx) and outputting raw signal straight from the source (your cd's/bluray) so you are hearing distortion of the rest of your audio chain.

It goes two ways, one way is to NOT use the oppo 105 DACS and just go with your AVR, another way is to buy a good pair of speakers and good amp etc. You will get higher quality sound from the latter route, but you will spend a bit more and is a beggining point of hifi. biggrin.gif
You're using the terminology all wrong. "Encoding" is performed during the recording process. Encoding involves taking the recording and turning it into the digital codec for Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-MA, etc. The encoder digitizes the signal, compresses it, and stores it on the media, (DVD's BluRay's, servers, etc.) Then, on the playback end, the signal is "decoded" in the playback device. In a home theater system, that process can occur either in the DVD player, the BluRay player or the AV receiver, depending on how the system is connected.

Audyssey, Dolby and THX don't do any "dulling down" of the signal. They "process" the signal to provide certain advanced features such as Dolby PLIIx, THX post-processing and Audyssey Room Correction, Dynamic EQ, etc. These can make the sound "better." Some people like these post-processing modes, others don't.

When using the analog outputs of the BluRay player, you are performing the decoding process in the player, and then the post-processing of Bass Management, speaker distances and level settings in the player. You're still processing the signal, but with a much less sophisticated processor than the one available in the AVR. It is not necessary to put the AVR in "Pure Direct" mode because the analog inputs don't use the DAC's in the receiver anyway. There is nothing to "bypass." It's a straight pass through except for the Master Volume Control.

Player3, is there some reason you don't want to use the HDMI connections, and then take advantage of Audyssey and the other features available with the digital signal processing?

Craig
post #8 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Alright so can you help me understand a little better? Does the Oppo make it more demanding for my speakers simply by being more pronounced?
Ahhh gotcha! Is it my speakers that are the weakest link do you think? Or the Marantz?
It's neither. Try the HDMI connection. Then run Audyssey . You'll get a proper calibration. That should fix your problem.

Craig
post #9 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You're using the terminology all wrong. "Encoding" is performed during the recording process. Encoding involves taking the recording and turning it into the digital codec for Dolby Digital, Dolby TrueHD, DTS, DTS-MA, etc. The encoder digitizes the signal, compresses it, and stores it on the media, (DVD's BluRay's, servers, etc.) Then, on the playback end, the signal is "decoded" in the playback device. In a home theater system, that process can occur either in the DVD player, the BluRay player or the AV receiver, depending on how the system is connected.

Audyssey, Dolby and THX don't do any "dulling down" of the signal. They "process" the signal to provide certain advanced features such as Dolby PLIIx, THX post-processing and Audyssey Room Correction, Dynamic EQ, etc. These can make the sound "better." Some people like these post-processing modes, others don't.

When using the analog outputs of the BluRay player, you are performing the decoding process in the player, and then the post-processing of Bass Management, speaker distances and level settings in the player. You're still processing the signal, but with a much less sophisticated processor than the one available in the AVR. It is not necessary to put the AVR in "Pure Direct" mode because the analog inputs don't use the DAC's in the receiver anyway. There is nothing to "bypass." It's a straight pass through except for the Master Volume Control.

Player3, is there some reason you don't want to use the HDMI connections, and then take advantage of Audyssey and the other features available with the digital signal processing?

Craig

Well, a few things,
1) Why is it you think I notice more distortion while using the Oppo's DAC's then?
2) And when I use "pure direct", believe it or not, it actually does change the sound! I'm not sure if it's for better or worse, but it certainly sounds different to me!
3) Yes there is a reason. I bought the Oppo BDP-105 for the high quality DACs. Otherwise I would've opted for the cheaper Oppo BDP-103. I expected the DAC's in the Oppo to be significantly better than those that are in my Marantz. At least, that's what Crutchfield and many other reviews led me to believe. I miss Audyssey, so sometimes I'm divided as to which to choose, the Oppo's DACs or the Marantz Audyssey.

Thanks btw for your input! biggrin.gif
post #10 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Well, a few things,
1) Why is it you think I notice more distortion while using the Oppo's DAC's then?
I don't know... but I suspect it's a setup/calibration issue. How did you calibrate the system using the Oppo? How did you set the Crossovers, Levels and Distances in the Oppo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

2) And when I use "pure direct", believe it or not, it actually does change the sound! I'm not sure if it's for better or worse, but it certainly sounds different to me!
Again, I don't know, but the analog inputs are supposed to bypass all the internal processing in the receiver including the DAC's, and the BM, and post-processing. That's the same thing the "Pure, Direct" setting does for the digital inputs. Are you "sure" you're hearing a difference?

BTW, if you are just using the MVC and the power amps in the receiver, why use a receiver at all? Just plug the Oppo directly into an amp, and you're good to go:
Quote:
Analog Output Tests

For those of you that plan on exclusively using the analog outputs of the BDP-105, I’ve run a complete battery of measurements on the player. With a player like the BDP-105, I could even envision a consumer bypassing a preamp all together and utilizing the BDP-105 as not only the Universal Blu-ray player but as the preamp itself. The BDP-105 has a global volume control and both USB and HDMI inputs to stream music and handle HDMI audio and video sources. Many folks in the high end two-channel world actually prefer using the source player as the preamp and they can easily do that with this player too.
http://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-and-dvd-player-reviews/oppo-bdp-105/oppo-bdp-105-measurements

That's not what I would do, but if youre doing it anyway... I'm just sayin'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

3) Yes there is a reason. I bought the Oppo BDP-105 for the high quality DACs. Otherwise I would've opted for the cheaper Oppo BDP-103. I expected the DAC's in the Oppo to be significantly better than those that are in my Marantz. At least, that's what Crutchfield and many other reviews led me to believe. I miss Audyssey, so sometimes I'm divided as to which to choose, the Oppo's DACs or the Marantz Audyssey.
Well, I'm not going to get into a big discussion about the value and audibility of DAC upgrades except to say that, IMO, Audyssey Room Correction will make a *MUCH* bigger difference in sound quality than a DAC "upgrade."

Just as importantly, performing great A to D and D to A conversions is not the whole story. The post-processing in the player is not what I would want. For example:
Quote:
Bass Management

Setting all speakers to "small" and selecting 80Hz as our choice of crossover point, we measured the analog bass management capabilities of the BDP-105. The BDP-105 does offer variable crossover settings from 40-250Hz (20Hz increments from 40Hz to 80Hz, 10Hz increments from 80Hz to 120Hz, 50Hz increments from 150Hz to 250Hz) just like this model’s predecessor.

Note: The BDP-105 bass management only affects the analog multi-channel outputs. Balanced outputs and HDMI outputs bypass this feature.

We measured the filter slopes using a -20dBFS 96kHz / 24 bit PCM test signal. For the HPF, we measured a -3dB point of 75Hz, which was slightly lower than the 80Hz setting with a slope just shy of 12dB/octave. For the LPF, we measured a -3dB point of 80Hz with a 12dB/octave rolloff. We personally prefer to see a 24dB/octave slope for the LPF like THX recommends, but Oppo said their goal was to meet the minimum Dolby requirement of at least a 1st order filter (6dB/octave) for the HPF and at least a 2nd order filter (12dB/octave) for the LPF. Considering THX informed us they don't even test the analog outputs of Blu-ray players, we are just picking nits here.
http://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-and-dvd-player-reviews/oppo-bdp-105/oppo-bdp-105-measurements

A crossover frequency that doesn't match for the LPF and HPF, isn't even the one selected, and the very shallow slopes of the LPF and HPF are not conducive to most speaker/subwoofer systems. If your CC is not bass-capable, and the slope of the LPF is too shallow, that could certainly be sending a signal to the CC that it is not capable of reproducing... and causing the speaker to distort.

Bottom line, there are all kinds of things that could be causing the issue you're having. In general, it is much easier to address things with the more rigorous and sophisticated processing in the receiver than the Oppo.

Craig
Edited by craig john - 10/16/13 at 5:42pm
post #11 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Question for you guys,

When I watch movies, on an Oppo BDP-105, while using the Oppo's DAC's, I sometimes can hear what seems to be distortion through my center channel speaker. This doesn't seem to happen when I use Audyssey through my receiver. And when I listen to music, it doesn't seem to happen either when I use the DAC's on the Oppo or the Audyssey through my receiver, so long as I have the center channel turned down a little on the Oppo. Any thoughts on that? Is my center channel not powerful enough?

A Marantz SR6007 is my receiver, 7.1 setup with Atlantic Technology 2200 speakers. On my Oppo, the left and right speakers are -4db and the center is -8db, with the surrounds at 0db.

Thanks! biggrin.gif

(the center channel is an Atlantic Technology 2200C)

You can check the specs out here if that would be helpful: http://www.atlantictechnology.com/default.asp?NodeId=45
Re-reading this, I have a few questions:

You said you don't notice the distortion when you listen to music. Are you listening to multi-channel music? If not, and you're listening to 2-channel music, the Oppo won't send anything to the CC. It doesn't have any way to do it, (i.e., Dolby PLIIx, DTS Neo, etc.) You might be hearing something that "sounds" like it's coming from the CC, but that would be a "phantom" image produced by the L/R's.

What sub are you using? With those AT speakers, you NEED a sub or 2. They only have 4.5" mid's and their stated -3 dB point of 90 Hz is very optimistic. You'll want to use 120 to 150 Hz crossovers with those speakers.

How did you decide on those level settings for the speakers? Did you set speaker and subwoofer distances? How did you arrive at those?

Craig
post #12 of 77
Thread Starter 
So nearly all of what you just said is beyond me. I must confess, I'm a novice. I'm just getting into it really. I'll explain where I'm coming from: The 2200 AT speakers my dad had for years, and bought me a new set that was on sale on Amazon for around $650 dollars(including sub). A complete 5.1 system, 2200 AT speakers, with a BIC PL-200 as the sub. I then bought two more surround AT 2200 speakers, and then read a bunch of reviews and got the Marantz SR6007 for a deal as well. So I was pretty ecstatic because these speakers were 2500 dollars back then! And the new model of them is 2500 dollars. I mention the prices because I'm not sure how equal my components are. I'm looking to upgrade, and trying to figure out what the best thing to upgrade would be first with my budget. And my CC distortion concerned me.
So anyway, what I started doing, was experimenting with players, because I felt that I wasn't getting the quality of sound that I thought I should be getting.

So the PS3 was my first player for DVD's and Blu-rays. Then I decided to try an older Pioneer Elite DVD player my dad had, and to my amazement, it sounded better on some DVD's.
That led me to think a player was extremely important. Then I found the Oppo, which people RAVE about, ranging from the actual disc transport to the DAC's.
So I'm really just learning by myself. There's no HT stores around, so the internet has been all I've had. All that led me to the conclusion that using the DAC's in the player would make a significant difference, and I'll be honest, when I first got it, I was disappointed. It was so underwhelming compared to Audyssey's immersive sound. But I was like, "nah, must be how you've set something up.. that can't be right", so I fiddled and fiddled, to where we are now, where the DAC's sound wayyyyy better than they used to, but there's still pluses and minuses to either using my receiver with Audyssey or the Oppo and its DAC's.

To answer your questions,
1) I calibrated with my own ears. Just based soley on what I liked. I've spent hours and hours tweaking it, listening to different content from different sources.
2) Calibration stats:
Concert DVD's: CC -10db FR -7.5db SR 0db SBR 0db Sub 0db(up 15db on my Marantz)
Music: CC -7.5db FR -7.5db SR 0db SBR 0db Sub 0db(up 15db on Marantz)
Movies: CC -10db FR -4db SR 0db SBR 0db Sub 0db(up 10db on Marantz)
Distance: CC 8.75ft FR 8ft SR 4ft SBR 5ft Sub 9ft
Crossover 120HZ
3) Yes, I'm referring to listening to Multi-Channel music and 2ch music. And btw, actually the Oppo does have DTS Neo, and sound his coming from the CC. wink.gif (I've checked)
4) Sub is a BIC Acoustech PL-200
5) And yes, my crossover actually used to be 80hz, which in my AT manual it says 80-100hz is recommended, but I've found that 120hz sounds better.
6) And I was confused of the bass stuff you were talking about with the Oppo and all. I don't know what all of that means.

Another thing I will say, I watched Pacific Rim last night, and I felt things performed pretty well except the distortion I noticed in the CC. I've actually been looking to upgrade my subwoofer because while listening to music, concert DVD music that is, it doesn't seem to have enough oomph in it. But during the movie it had AMPLE amounts of bass! And it doesn't seem to struggle with CD's either. So maybe the Oppo bass stuff is playing into that? I don't know if that's relevant, but it was peculiar to me. I also tried my dad's AT 422SB that he bought with his 2200 speakers, and it actually did worse on the concert DVD's. This btw, was with using the Oppo's analog outputs, again to which there are pluses and minuses, as they seem to bring out the weakness in my subs but yet can sound way more accurate bass wise, but I have no reference point, just my personal taste so I could be way wrong. You seem to know a lot more than I do.

^^I know that's a lot of info, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read that and help!
Thanks! smile.gif
post #13 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Alright so can you help me understand a little better? Does the Oppo make it more demanding for my speakers simply by being more pronounced?
Ahhh gotcha! Is it my speakers that are the weakest link do you think? Or the Marantz?

Oops, sorry I meant if you are running on "pure direct mode" you are running raw signal straight from the source without the matrix encoding like Dolby and THX etc.
post #14 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Well, a few things,
1) Why is it you think I notice more distortion while using the Oppo's DAC's then?
2) And when I use "pure direct", believe it or not, it actually does change the sound! I'm not sure if it's for better or worse, but it certainly sounds different to me!
3) Yes there is a reason. I bought the Oppo BDP-105 for the high quality DACs. Otherwise I would've opted for the cheaper Oppo BDP-103. I expected the DAC's in the Oppo to be significantly better than those that are in my Marantz. At least, that's what Crutchfield and many other reviews led me to believe. I miss Audyssey, so sometimes I'm divided as to which to choose, the Oppo's DACs or the Marantz Audyssey.

Thanks btw for your input! biggrin.gif

Dude, even a 5 year old kid knows these AVR fanboys here are pulling this AVR and amp sounds the same crap for decades here, BS. What I am telling you is the real truth and you are experiecing it first hand.


Its your AMP the Marantz AVR. Why? Because when its encoded by Ausessey, its clear. That tells you your speakers are capable of clear sound without distortion.

I never heard your speakers so I dont know how good they are but try this out.

First, forget about distortion. Run it through the OPPO 105 DAC on pure direct mode, pull your speakers half way into your room. Play a track of song with vocals and instruments together. If you hear the instruments coming out NOT from INSIDE your speakers but from your side walls, and you hear vocals about 4 -5 feet BEHIND your speaker placement when your speakers are right in frontof your face, then you have good speaker w/ nice soundstaging. Same with bass, NOT from your speakers but from the room like behind or forward or side of your speakers. (Bass FR changes so keep listening, if its one note coming from one direction all the time, then you have speakers thata re not good with bass/soundstage same).

With bass, you should be able to hear not just a THUMP or a boom, but a round fat shaped bass at times. A shaped bass means you got a good woofer in your speakers.
Edited by NAIM101 - 10/16/13 at 9:25pm
post #15 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Well, a few things,
1) Why is it you think I notice more distortion while using the Oppo's DAC's then?
2) And when I use "pure direct", believe it or not, it actually does change the sound! I'm not sure if it's for better or worse, but it certainly sounds different to me!
3) Yes there is a reason. I bought the Oppo BDP-105 for the high quality DACs. Otherwise I would've opted for the cheaper Oppo BDP-103. I expected the DAC's in the Oppo to be significantly better than those that are in my Marantz. At least, that's what Crutchfield and many other reviews led me to believe. I miss Audyssey, so sometimes I'm divided as to which to choose, the Oppo's DACs or the Marantz Audyssey.

Thanks btw for your input! biggrin.gif

Dude, even a 5 year old kid knows these AVR fanboys here are pulling this AVR and amp sounds the same crap for decades here, BS. What I am telling you is the real truth and you are experiecing it first hand.


Its your AMP the Marantz AVR. Why? Because when its encoded by Ausessey, its clear. That tells you your speakers are capable of clear sound without distortion.

LOL!!!

OP you are better off listening to Craig then this fool!
post #16 of 77
Interesting thread....I would agree with everything that "Craig John" has posted.
I definitely agree with him that the differences in DACs between the Marantz
And the oppo are negligible compared to a properly set-up Marantz Avr with
Audyssey.

My suggestion to you is as
1) hook everything into the Marantz digitally...HDMI etc
2) read the Audyssey set up FAQ and follow it to a TEE.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1
3) if you have any concerns or questions after you do this,then post questions.
4) Once you have your system set -up properly then hook up you Oppo analog
Inputs and play around.

I was surprised that you have adjusted various settings "by ear" and
Not totally surprised you are experiencing some distortion.. You need to
Really understand what you are doing and how it can effect what you are hearing.

good luck
Edited by grasshoppers - 10/16/13 at 10:04pm
post #17 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Dude, even a 5 year old kid knows these AVR fanboys here are pulling this AVR and amp sounds the same crap for decades here, BS. What I am telling you is the real truth and you are experiecing it first hand.

How much do you want to bet that not a single element of your "advice" helps this person correct their problem?
post #18 of 77
Dude, just sell your Oppo-105 and get a Oppo-103 if you are on a budget. Once you go this route, you will continue to upgrade for a long time. I wlll buy your Oppo-105. PM me.

Also, you have to remember that once you are "up there" in sound with DACS, speakers, amps etc. The difference are very small. Its like going from a lamborguini to Ferrari (Oppo 103 to Oppo 105) Or from like the Miami Heat to the Spurs. Both are great teams. Differece will be very subtle. But its the last 3-5% the Audiophilles chase after..

However, the dramatic difference you exprienced in your first set-up of cd transports was because you were going from like the Charlotte Bobcats (LOL) to the Heats...
Edited by NAIM101 - 10/16/13 at 10:26pm
post #19 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Dude, just sell your Oppo-105 and get a Oppo-103 if you are on a budget. Once you go this route, you will continue to upgrade for a long time. I wlll buy your Oppo-105. PM me.

Also, you have to remember that once you are "up there" in sound with DACS, speakers, amps etc. The difference are very small. Its like going from a lamborguini to Ferrari (Oppo 103 to Oppo 105) Or from like the Miami Heat to the Spurs. Both are great teams.

However, the dramatic difference you exprienced in your first set-up of cd transports was because you were going from like the Charlotte Bobcats (LOL) to the Heats...

any evidence to back your claims? Or does believing in magic make you happy?
post #20 of 77
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Dude, just sell your Oppo-105 and get a Oppo-103 if you are on a budget. Once you go this route, you will continue to upgrade for a long time. I wlll buy your Oppo-105. PM me.

Also, you have to remember that once you are "up there" in sound with DACS, speakers, amps etc. The difference are very small. Its like going from a lamborguini to Ferrari (Oppo 103 to Oppo 105) Or from like the Miami Heat to the Spurs. Both are great teams. Differece will be very subtle. But its the last 3-5% the Audiophilles chase after..

However, the dramatic difference you exprienced in your first set-up of cd transports was because you were going from like the Charlotte Bobcats (LOL) to the Heats...

But, I don't know if I wanna sell my Oppo... frown.gif just look at the reviews man! It'd be painful to sell such a quality unit... I was so excited when to get it, I literally sat outside waiting for the UPS truck. biggrin.gif
I like Ferrari's... rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Interesting thread....I would agree with everything that "Craig John" has posted.
I definitely agree with him that the differences in DACs between the Marantz
And the oppo are negligible compared to a properly set-up Marantz Avr with
Audyssey.

My suggestion to you is as
1) hook everything into the Marantz digitally...HDMI etc
2) read the Audyssey set up FAQ and follow it to a TEE.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1
3) if you have any concerns or questions after you do this,then post questions.
4) Once you have your system set -up properly then hook up you Oppo analog
Inputs and play around.

I was surprised that you have adjusted various settings "by ear" and
Not totally surprised you are experiencing some distortion.. You need to
Really understand what you are doing and how it can effect what you are hearing.

good luck

Yep. Done all of that. Read the FAQ, followed it to a tee, except, I don't have a tripod. I positioned it upright on a office chair. Pointing nearly perfectly level toward the ceiling. The chair is more of an absorbent material though, would that affect the frequencies getting to the mic? I'll work on finding some sort of stand! biggrin.gif
Other than that though, I've listened to it for hours and hours of each. I've messed with every setting on both my Oppo and Marantz. I've read the manuals to figure out what everything means, and looked online. I've really gone through the ends and outs of both components.
And that is how I got to the conclusion I'm at. Btw, maybe this is a help, the biggest difference I notice, is with Dynamic EQ ON. That is really what even makes Audyssey even comparable to the analog.
Any thoughts?
And when you say you are surprised I do it "by ear", what do you mean? I just do it because I'm so picky and like to evaluate the nuances myself and choose what I like. But if that's a bad idea, by all means, tell me whatcha think! smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post

any evidence to back your claims? Or does believing in magic make you happy?

LOLOLOL. Regardless, that is hilarious.



Taking in all you guys have to say!
post #21 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

So nearly all of what you just said is beyond me. I must confess, I'm a novice. I'm just getting into it really. I'll explain where I'm coming from: The 2200 AT speakers my dad had for years, and bought me a new set that was on sale on Amazon for around $650 dollars(including sub). A complete 5.1 system, 2200 AT speakers, with a BIC PL-200 as the sub. I then bought two more surround AT 2200 speakers, and then read a bunch of reviews and got the Marantz SR6007 for a deal as well. So I was pretty ecstatic because these speakers were 2500 dollars back then! And the new model of them is 2500 dollars. I mention the prices because I'm not sure how equal my components are. I'm looking to upgrade, and trying to figure out what the best thing to upgrade would be first with my budget. And my CC distortion concerned me.
So anyway, what I started doing, was experimenting with players, because I felt that I wasn't getting the quality of sound that I thought I should be getting.

So the PS3 was my first player for DVD's and Blu-rays. Then I decided to try an older Pioneer Elite DVD player my dad had, and to my amazement, it sounded better on some DVD's.
That led me to think a player was extremely important. Then I found the Oppo, which people RAVE about, ranging from the actual disc transport to the DAC's.
So I'm really just learning by myself. There's no HT stores around, so the internet has been all I've had. All that led me to the conclusion that using the DAC's in the player would make a significant difference, and I'll be honest, when I first got it, I was disappointed. It was so underwhelming compared to Audyssey's immersive sound. But I was like, "nah, must be how you've set something up.. that can't be right", so I fiddled and fiddled, to where we are now, where the DAC's sound wayyyyy better than they used to, but there's still pluses and minuses to either using my receiver with Audyssey or the Oppo and its DAC's.

To answer your questions,
1) I calibrated with my own ears. Just based soley on what I liked. I've spent hours and hours tweaking it, listening to different content from different sources.
2) Calibration stats:
Concert DVD's: CC -10db FR -7.5db SR 0db SBR 0db Sub 0db(up 15db on my Marantz)
Music: CC -7.5db FR -7.5db SR 0db SBR 0db Sub 0db(up 15db on Marantz)
Movies: CC -10db FR -4db SR 0db SBR 0db Sub 0db(up 10db on Marantz)
Distance: CC 8.75ft FR 8ft SR 4ft SBR 5ft Sub 9ft
Crossover 120HZ
3) Yes, I'm referring to listening to Multi-Channel music and 2ch music. And btw, actually the Oppo does have DTS Neo, and sound his coming from the CC. wink.gif (I've checked)
4) Sub is a BIC Acoustech PL-200
5) And yes, my crossover actually used to be 80hz, which in my AT manual it says 80-100hz is recommended, but I've found that 120hz sounds better.
6) And I was confused of the bass stuff you were talking about with the Oppo and all. I don't know what all of that means.

Another thing I will say, I watched Pacific Rim last night, and I felt things performed pretty well except the distortion I noticed in the CC. I've actually been looking to upgrade my subwoofer because while listening to music, concert DVD music that is, it doesn't seem to have enough oomph in it. But during the movie it had AMPLE amounts of bass! And it doesn't seem to struggle with CD's either. So maybe the Oppo bass stuff is playing into that? I don't know if that's relevant, but it was peculiar to me. I also tried my dad's AT 422SB that he bought with his 2200 speakers, and it actually did worse on the concert DVD's. This btw, was with using the Oppo's analog outputs, again to which there are pluses and minuses, as they seem to bring out the weakness in my subs but yet can sound way more accurate bass wise, but I have no reference point, just my personal taste so I could be way wrong. You seem to know a lot more than I do.

^^I know that's a lot of info, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read that and help!
Thanks! smile.gif



As for your sub, there are different FR of bass in recorded sources. From CD's to DVD's to Bluray's, all recordings have different bass frequencies. As an example, a 35hz bass wil rattle your walls.. a 25hz bass will sound different and a 50hz bass wil sound different. So your sub is putting out what the source is telling it to put out (bass frequncies)

EDIT.

Oops, reread your post again and it seems like the DVD concert was not recorded well. Thats all.

Haveyou heard of the Linn theory? It's stating that the source is the most important (how it was recorded).
Edited by NAIM101 - 10/17/13 at 12:07am
post #22 of 77
Naim's pre-edit version that I started to respond to:

As for your sub, there are different FR of bass in recorded sources. From CD's to DVD's to Bluray's, all recordings have different bass frequencies. As an example, a 35hz bass wil rattle your walls.. a 25hz bass will sound different and a 50hz bass wil sound different. So your sub is putting out what the source is telling it to put out (bass frequncies)

Second, you are feeling and hearing it like its a PROBLEM because your sub 1. not integrated well with the rest of your speakers and 2. bottoming out.

The bass should either sound like its coming from a room in a shape (called "articulate" bass) or its coming right from your speakers. Either way, when you feel or hear it like its not a right kind of bass, then its again either the sub is not integrated well with the rest of your spaekrs or its bottoming out.

When you have a good articulate airy bass with good integration to your spaekers, the problem that your having which I think is that your subwoofer is simply not articulate enough and cant produce the "air" of the bass frequencies therefore, you are hearing as NOT enough bass, when infact it is hitting the right frequecy, but just not intergrated well.


I think you are hearing your bass and saying its not LOUD enough and bothers you because the bass frequency that you are hearing should be "shaped", but because your sub is incapable of articulate bass, (meaning there is no shape) you are conceiving it as a bottoming out experience. When the bass is shaped, no matter what, the bass becomes a "tone", and your ears will percieve it as a musical note. It wont bother you at all no matter at what output your sub is putting out.
Edited by NAIM101 - Today at 11:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post




As for your sub, there are different FR of bass in recorded sources. From CD's to DVD's to Bluray's, all recordings have different bass frequencies. As an example, a 35hz bass wil rattle your walls.. a 25hz bass will sound different and a 50hz bass wil sound different. So your sub is putting out what the source is telling it to put out (bass frequncies)

EDIT.

Oops, reread your post again and it seems like the DVD concert was not recorded well. Thats all.

Haveyou heard of the Linn theory? It's stating that the source is the most important (how it was recorded).

Really? There's different bass frequencies in a recording? Who woulda thunk?

Hopefully the sub is faithful in reproducing the frequencies, that's the whole point of a speaker.

Now it's just the recording he was listening to? All your mumble jumble about the bass being articulate or shaped or the sub bottoming out no longer applies?

Player, I'd highly recommend you not listen to Naim, unless you like uneducated trolls....Craig is highly respected on the other hand.
post #23 of 77
I was assuming he was not gettinig a satisfied output and integration of his sub to his speakers and the result was coming from all his sources. I skimmed through that particular post.

If he was getting that sort of bass from all his sources then the prior edited post is the correct answer.

Since he is getting different bass output from different sources, the Linn's theory in this case is correct.

To further add, OP should realize that running through OPPO's DAC and Marantz as Amp in "pure direct" mode is whats causing him to hear the difference in sources. With AVR's codes like THX and Dolby etc, the reciever is already doing all the frequency re-arraging so one cant really tell a difference between sources. But without the pre-digitization, he is getting correct frequencies intended by the mixer of the source.

OP, now you know why audiophilles were happy about the DSD capability to be added to the Oppo 105. (And I think they added it recently through the firmware update). DSD plays in much higher sample rate than the CD's or Audio DVD's and in "pure direct" mode, your speakers will catch that and will put out much better sound. Also, your Oppo has USB Asynch mode as well. The only way you will get true 96khz sample rate from your computer.

Anyway with the AVR, there won't be much difference if you put it through pre-digitized codes like Dolby and THX etc no matter what sample rate. Just consistent OK sound all around with all sample rates.

or you can go the Hifi way, where sh1ty sources will sound crap, and good sources will absolutely sound brilliant (avrs cant touch it).
Edited by NAIM101 - 10/17/13 at 1:55am
post #24 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIM101 View Post

DSD plays in much higher sample rate than the CD's or Audio DVD's and in "pure direct" mode, your speakers will catch that and will put out much better sound.

Where's the proof that DSD "catches" stuff that will put out much better sound, as in a verified audible difference, not measurable?
post #25 of 77
@naim: What a world you must live in to be that kind of wrong about so much. Seriously, why haven't you just asked the OP to open up the case and see if the fairy inside is running out of magic or sick?

@Player3:

Just a quick spot of info to unconfuse you some. All sound that's recorded needs to be stored using some kind of way such that you are able to read that info and get a reasonable reproduction back from it. That could simply be squiggly lines cut into a wax cylinder for an early phonograph, or something as modern as say FLAC, or MP3.

What NAIM here doesn't realize is that movies are encoded using Dolby Digital or DTS. These are algorithms designed to actually store sound just like wav, FLAC, AAC, MP3, PCM, WMA and a whole host of other formats. Regardless of what "mode" you are listening to or how you connect your kit up, DD/DTS must be decoded at some point. In this case you are letting your Oppo decode the format to analog out and sending it to the AVR for amplification.

You could let the AVR decode it by connecting the Oppo via HDMI or optical/digital coax. What happens there is that the encoded information (exact same information btw NAIM) is sent to the AVR and then it decodes the info and amplifies it. Basically it's the same exact thing happening. This is no "applying dolby or THX codes", it's encoded via DD or DTS to being with.

At some point to can do some processing like bass management, room correction, eq'ing, but it doesn't change the above.

As far as DAC's go (digital to analogy converter) there was a time when what you got really mattered, that was back when the cost of silica per performance was much higher. A low grade, cheap DAC didn't come close to a high quality expensive one. But that was early 2000's and before, with modern manufacturing processes it's very cheap now to make a good quality chip and though you still have a performance gap between good and excellent, it's very very small now. People like naim may argue that the electrical components of the DAC matter too, but it's very little. Though you can get high quality parts, what's most going to be affected is the mean-time-before-failure. It's just going to last longer. In the DAC's of old it was the processing chip that always mattered, it's still the only thing that really matters now.

That's not to say that separates don't have their place, you'd be hard pressed to find an AVR that likes 2ohm speakers for instance. But naim is just an uninformed troll, he doesn't understand the "why" part (and it gets a lot of other things just plain wrong), if this was 1998 we all would agree with some of what he is saying, but this is the future.
Edited by ien2 - 10/17/13 at 11:02am
post #26 of 77
Thread Starter 
Well certainly. From my understanding, the only difference between using the Oppo and the Marantz are the DAC's and Room Correction.
And yes, I know NAIM wasn't right on a lot of things. DTS and Dolby are in the source, unless you use PCM, which next to no Blu-rays have for Multi-Channel.

I know first hand the difference that 44.1khz to 96khz to 192khz, 16bit and 24bit. Also, I would say, from personal experience, the DAC's in the Oppo are significantly better. It is obvious to me. When I use the AVR without Dynamic EQ and Audyssey, so taking room correction software out of the equation, other than levels and distance, the Oppo blows it out of the water. The clarity is obvious.
Secondly, I'm quite confident that if I turned off Dynamic EQ and Audyssey, that the CC would distort as well.(I'll test that today)
My thought is maybe the Room Correction and Dynamic EQ makes it less demanding for the CC?
Any thoughts on that?

But, my issue isn't theories/facts about DTS, Dolby, or DSD, my issue is my distortion. And there is obviously a difference between the demands of the concert DVD's and the movies. One seems to distort, one doesn't.
And what I'm trying to do, is eliminate the weakest link. Because I've kind of concluded, unless there's some obvious thing I'm missing, that at least one part of my system isn't able to perform at the levels I would like it to.

My understanding is that Audyssey does smooth the frequencies??
I'll do some testing today myself just to better clarify and have the experience fresh on my mind! biggrin.gif
post #27 of 77
Audessey rearranges all frequencies. Boosts etc.



This is pretty simple. First, play a movie source and place your ear right next to the speaker on all your speakers and replay the scenes where you detect distortion on your center channel. Check if you are sure its just coning from the center channel or all your speakers, if the center channel is the only channel that is distorting and all your other channels are fine, just unhook your LEFT or RIGHT speaker and put it to your center channel. If it still distorts, your speakers are not the problem. Then its time for a new AMP or a AVR.
Edited by NAIM101 - 10/17/13 at 1:44pm
post #28 of 77
"Also, I would say, from personal experience, the DAC's in the Oppo are significantly better. It is obvious to me. When I use the AVR without Dynamic EQ and Audyssey, so taking room correction software out of the equation, other than levels and distance, the Oppo blows it out of the water. The clarity is obvious."

This is where you would be mistaken... The listening levels and distances MUST be exactly
MATCHED in order for you need to make that judgement. Any difference in levels will
ALWAYS lead you to prefer the louder one. It's human nature.

Invest in a tripod for your Audyssey mic....they are about $20 @ best buy.
It made a difference in my set-up when I was "improvising"...like you.
post #29 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Well certainly. From my understanding, the only difference between using the Oppo and the Marantz are the DAC's and Room Correction.
And yes, I know NAIM wasn't right on a lot of things. DTS and Dolby are in the source, unless you use PCM, which next to no Blu-rays have for Multi-Channel.

I know first hand the difference that 44.1khz to 96khz to 192khz, 16bit and 24bit. Also, I would say, from personal experience, the DAC's in the Oppo are significantly better. It is obvious to me. When I use the AVR without Dynamic EQ and Audyssey, so taking room correction software out of the equation, other than levels and distance, the Oppo blows it out of the water. The clarity is obvious.
Are you sure it's not just louder? When you compare two sound systems, you absolutely need to make sure the two things you are comparing are perfectly level matched. Otherwise, the louder one will always sound "better." A difference of even 1 dB is enough to make the louder one sound better. So, when you go to make these comparisons, please level-match the two "DUT's", (Device Under Test). Then put on a blind fold so you don't know which DUT you're listening to. Then have a 3rd party switch the DUT's without letting you know which DUT you're listening to. If you can reliably and consistently identify the Oppo when you can't see the Oppo, we'll have a winner!!!

Being a relative newbie, you're not familiar with all the fights, arguments, discussions there have been over the years about the value/audibility of DAC upgrades. The consensus here is that, when blinded and level-matched, there is no consistently discernible audible difference between different DAC's. If you could consistently and reliably identify the DAC's in your Oppo vs. the DAC's in your Marantz, when they're level matched, and you can't see the Oppo and you don't know which you're listening to, you would be the first person I'm aware of that could do it.

Feel free to believe whatever you want to believe. But if your going to state it as unquestionable fact that the Oppo DAC's "blow the Marantz DAC's out of the water," you need to back that up with repeatable and verifiable data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Secondly, I'm quite confident that if I turned off Dynamic EQ and Audyssey, that the CC would distort as well.(I'll test that today)
My thought is maybe the Room Correction and Dynamic EQ makes it less demanding for the CC?
Any thoughts on that?

Less Demanding = Properly Calibrated.

I still suspect that your issue is related to your calibration. Since you are getting distortion with the Oppo and not with the AVR/Audyssey, and Audyssey performs in-room measurements which you have not done with your "by ear" calibration, I strongly suspect a mis-calibration of the Oppo levels settings. Ears, especially inexperienced ears, are not good measurement microphones. I've had half a lifetime of experience with this stuff and I still would not try to perform a calibration by ear. To perform a proper calibration, you need an SPL meter and calibrated test tones. Does the Oppo generate test tones? If not, you'll need an external test tone disc. You can rent Avia from Netflix and use it's calibration tones. Or, there are MANY other sources of calibration test tones. Any THX Disc with the THX Optimizer has them.

The only other possibility I can think of is a defective Oppo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

But, my issue isn't theories/facts about DTS, Dolby, or DSD, my issue is my distortion. And there is obviously a difference between the demands of the concert DVD's and the movies. One seems to distort, one doesn't.
And what I'm trying to do, is eliminate the weakest link. Because I've kind of concluded, unless there's some obvious thing I'm missing, that at least one part of my system isn't able to perform at the levels I would like it to.

My understanding is that Audyssey does smooth the frequencies??
I'll do some testing today myself just to better clarify and have the experience fresh on my mind! biggrin.gif
What testing do you plan to do? Do you have measurement equipment?

Craig
post #30 of 77
Rule of thumb is, dont FORCE yourself to hear the differences, once you do, you are biased already. What sound best to your ears naturally is usually the correct answer. IN this case, OP prefers Oppos DAC over AVR. This goes for all speakers amps etc.
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