or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Dual 18Sounds TLW 3000 Mid Bass Unit
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dual 18Sounds TLW 3000 Mid Bass Unit

post #1 of 52
Thread Starter 
Hi,

The GOAL: LOTS of MIDBASS for a CHEST POUNDING experience.

I want to build a dual woofer 18 inches each mid bass unit to complement my existing speakers. Basically to add a LOT of mid-bass.

I am thinking of using the 18Sounds' TLW3000 woofers. I can get them at a reasonable price in my country (as opposed to the JBL 2242s).

http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product_simple&pid=324

As you can see the curves, it's pretty smooth from 60-300 hz. I intend to use it anywhere from 50-200 (most likely 60-130/150) to complement my Noesis.

The idea is to first build 1 box (with 2 woofers). Then add another if needed.

The questions are:

1. What type of box should I use? Sealed? I am leaning towards sealed because of cleaner sound and easier integration with all my multiple subs, speakers, etc. Please suggest box types.

Let's say:

a) If i went with sealed, what volume should I use? And how close should the woofers be placed next to each other?
b) Since each driver is 8 Ohms, how do i wire them to get 4 ohms? Is that parallel? I have a 10000fp clone and will be using one of the channels to drive this (total of 2200 Watts into 4 Ohms). If necessary, and if I build 2 units, I'll get hte fp14,000 and drive both with 5000 watts/channel.

Well, that's it for now... let's see how this goes.

All help appreciated as I am new at the DIY scene. And building a mid bass unit seems like a good place to start.
post #2 of 52
what amp/how much power are you putting on the noesis?

how high of a crossover point can you set with your system that is powering the noesis?
post #3 of 52
bass pig's lair is a model for what you will be doing. good to have a study of it: http://www.basspig.com/
post #4 of 52
here is his speaker arrangement prior to the projector.

mains are 12" high sensitivity (red arrow) this would be like your noesis.

mid-bass modules are electrovoice evx180b (roughly the same idea as jbl 2241/2242 family) in ported cabs (blue arrow).

bassmaxx ported cabs tuned to around 16hz or so iirc. essentially tc sounds pro 5100's or something like that (yellow arrow).

post #5 of 52
the woofer that you have selected is more of a full range bass woofer. it is 3db less sensitive in the midbass as the 18lw2400, so it would need twice as much power for the same spl.

here is the 18tlw3000 vs. the 18lw2400 with 100 watts on each in cabs designed for flat response.

the tlw3000 is more of a full range bass driver, so is heavier, has more xmax, more inductance, and all the rest of it, but it can go lower and louder than the lw2400.

the lw2400 is more of a midbass driver, so is lighter, has less xmax, less inductance, and all the rest of it :-), so it can go louder and higher while being cleaner than the tlw3000.

post #6 of 52
so if you have the bass from 50 or 60hz down covered in spades, the 18lw2400 is the way to go.

two of them in an 8 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 45hz is what is presented. 100 watts of power.

of course, feel free to put 2000 watts on them (1000 watts ea.) and go for 133db or add a second cab (2 more drivers) and another 2000 watts and go for 139db. :-)

not counting any room gain. eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif



2242s would be another option as would td18h drivers.
Edited by LTD02 - 10/16/13 at 9:45pm
post #7 of 52
Thread Starter 
LT, thanks for being the first to help out... I still have tons to learn... pretty steep learning curve that is... smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

what amp/how much power are you putting on the noesis?

how high of a crossover point can you set with your system that is powering the noesis?

The Noesis are rated for 2000W so I am giving each 2200 watts / channel from my FP10000 clone. (I haven't yet hooked it up yet but that's the plan). Currently my marantz has a 'peak' light out whenever i play anything dynamic even at moderate levels. Basically, it's not enough juice to maximize my Noesis' potential. I am not sure if eventually my Onkyo will do the job or not, so the 3 channels from my FP10000 is there if needed. I'll still have 1 channel left, so that'll be used for the Mid Bass I am building. If I need another unit, then I'll have to get another FP14,000 and give them 5000 watts each.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

bass pig's lair is a model for what you will be doing. good to have a study of it: http://www.basspig.com/

Looks like a good start. I noticed a couple things different from mine though. Let me know your thoughts on it:

1) He has 16 feet of floor space. I only have 10.5 feet total length. Will not be able to accommodate all his speakers. I may need 2 rows (ie, the low bass at the very bottom, then the rest sitting on top of them).
2) He places both his LR very close by... I want to place them at the far corners of each other... ie, the Noesis LR will be the edge most speakers.

Basically, if placed horizontally, here's what I currently have:

[L] [Possible Mid Bass] [C] [Orbit Shifter] [R]

The above will take up 14 + 22 + 14 + 22 + 14 = 86 inches of floor space. Which leaves me with another 40 inches or so... which means, I can potentially put in another mid bass unit

My plan then is to put a row of 'low bass / subs' at the floor level, and then the rest on top of it... I am thinking 4-5 units of 24 inch drivers/boxes.

What do you think?

Then put a baffle all around them to cover them all up and lots of glass wool behind (which can act as bass traps as well. I am going to be using 3 feet of depth..

I just noticed that I only have 22 feet length to my room, which means, if i used up 3 feet, i'll only have 19 feet left from the screen to the back, maybe less after rendering with 'cement walls/acoustics panels/wood panelling' etc.. maybe left with 18 feets.

If first row is 11 feet from screen, then second row would be 16 feet, and that leaves only a couple feet to the backwall...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

bassmaxx ported cabs tuned to around 16hz or so iirc. essentially tc sounds pro 5100's or something like that (yellow arrow).


How much do those 5100s cost? I am looking at budget closely here..

Also, what's 'tuning' means? I keep hearing it but don't quite understand... i gather it's the size of the hole openings in the box? And how does that make a graph straight?

Another important question is, should I build my mid bass sealed? I like sealed sounds and they might really sound a lot better with music.. My sealed HSUs sounds really clean and nice.. and they can prob be integrated easier with everything. I might lose a bit of spl, but nothing 2 mid bass units won't solve... anything wrong with going sealed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

the woofer that you have selected is more of a full range bass woofer. it is 3db less sensitive in the midbass as the 18lw2400, so it would need twice as much power for the same spl.

here is the 18tlw3000 vs. the 18lw2400 with 100 watts on each in cabs designed for flat response.

the tlw3000 is more of a full range bass driver, so is heavier, has more xmax, more inductance, and all the rest of it, but it can go lower and louder than the lw2400.

the lw2400 is more of a midbass driver, so is lighter, has less xmax, less inductance, and all the rest of it :-), so it can go louder and higher while being cleaner than the tlw3000.


OK, my thinking here was that because the 3000 is more expensive, they'll give me cleaner sounds.. my top priority is 'clean good sound' for music and also 'loud' for HT...

And another reason i was considering the 3000 is because they can extend lower, so i can cross my Orbit Shifter lower so it won't have to do so much work. Imagine if I can cross at 50 or even 40.. then my Subs can do their job..

Or, is my thinking totally wrong here? Should I stick to 2400s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

so if you have the bass from 50 or 60hz down covered in spades, the 18lw2400 is the way to go.

two of them in an 8 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 45hz is what is presented. 100 watts of power.

of course, feel free to put 2000 watts on them (1000 watts ea.) and go for 133db or add a second cab (2 more drivers) and another 2000 watts and go for 139db. :-)

not counting any room gain. eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif



2242s would be another option as would td18h drivers.

The 2242s cost 3 times more for me... so, they are out of the equation. I can get the 2400s for $300 or less, and the 3000 for $400.

I still haven't figured out the bass below 60hz or so.. I am hoping my Orbit Shifter can cover that.. if not will have to add more.. but not sure what drivers to use.. .also, thinking of the 'space i have' behind the AT screen. I can't do what popalock did with 18 drivers (first, it's way too much money, and 2nd, no way i can find a place to fit them all).
post #8 of 52
Thread Starter 
BTW: Is there a 'box design' specs I can use anywhere for what you're saying? And do I need any crossover? or, just use my processor to adjust the crossover point? I have an Ashley processor... might be a clone since i got it from sanway.. smile.gif

Are there any diagrams I can follow to hook up the woofers?
post #9 of 52
Thread Starter 
BTW: Looking at the graph you presented, where the 3000s can easily go down to 30 and then slow curve down, i am wondering if i build 4 of them (that's 8 drivers total), whether that would give me clean down to 20 hz... wouldn't that mean i don't need any more 'subwoofers'? Imax only goes down to 22hz and they sound incredible. .i think a lot of spl from 30-150 is where you get most bang for the 'scare part'... anything below will just be 'rumbling'...

here are some options to play with:

1. 2 units of dual 2400s for 60-150hz PLUS 2 units of 3000s tuned to 20hz for 20-60hz
2. 4 units of 3000s tuned down to 20hz (if this is even possible)...
3. Stick to the plan of 2 units of 2400s, then add other 'types of drivers' for actual subwoofers later..
post #10 of 52
Keep the Orbit Shifters playing from sub-20hz to at least 60hz, then cross the sub to the duel 2400 mid-bass cabs at that 60hz then have the 2400's playing up to only 225hz, at which point the 2400's will cross to your JTR's.

You do not want your mid-bass woofers trying to play down to subwoofer frequencies. Keep it simple.
post #11 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Keep the Orbit Shifters playing from sub-20hz to at least 60hz, then cross the sub to the duel 2400 mid-bass cabs at that 60hz then have the 2400's playing up to only 225hz, at which point the 2400's will cross to your JTR's.

You do not want your mid-bass woofers trying to play down to subwoofer frequencies. Keep it simple.

Sounds like a better plan.

Ok, so, if i were to set the mid bass to 225hz, wouldn't that cut into the Noesis' own woofers? I was initially thinking of going up to 130hz max...

so, if i follow this plan, do i need to add the Noesis to my processor and send it only signals above 225hz? or, leave it playing it's usual self?

Now I am thinking of another option.

Instead of building 2 dual 2400s units, i might build 4 single 2400s sealed.... easier to build too.. and I can have a slave out from them so if i wanted, i can power 2 of them from 1 channel on the fp14000
post #12 of 52
Thread Starter 
BTW: what 'gain' level do you guys set for your OS when used with a regular home receiver? I have currently set it at 12 (or is it -12db).
post #13 of 52
i didn't mean to confuse things with the bass pig link. it was only meant as one example of how to incorporate mid-bass speakers into a system. i didn't mean to suggest that you would use his layout and speakers.

many of your questions could be answered by doing some searching and getting familiar with the fundamentals otherwise a lot of time will be spent covering ground that has already been covered by others. otherwise, you are going to have a difficult time determining which suggestions folks make will be best for you and there will be many different opinions and they will all have advantages and drawbacks.

one thing that might help quite a bit is to grab a copy of winisd and model up a few different designs with the drivers in question. that way you can see the tradeoffs between excursion, power, size, extension, etc.
post #14 of 52
Thread Starter 
Is winisd a software? I think I bought something that comes with a mike.. not sure if it's the same thing... but it's at my friend's house in the US and he's not answering my emails.. might take a while for him to ship things off to me..

I think boxes are too complicated.. i might just go with what N8DOGG did.. he just made a sealed box... and that solves all the problems... I might do the same considering that is the easiest way to do it...
post #15 of 52
You don't want a sealed unit playing over the shifter...they will not get along at all. You need to cross them over so they are covering different frequencies. I've been running a comb of sealed with my shifter for a couple years now but the sealed are covering the low stuff (5-25) while the OS plays everything else. I find it hard to believe that you can't get the mdbass you need with noes is and an OS in a room that size. Have you tried raisin you XO up to 100 or 120hz and let the OS handle more mid? If I remember correctly you don't even have the OS running yet and you've already convinced yourself you need more?
post #16 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by subyguy View Post

You don't want a sealed unit playing over the shifter...they will not get along at all. You need to cross them over so they are covering different frequencies. I've been running a comb of sealed with my shifter for a couple years now but the sealed are covering the low stuff (5-25) while the OS plays everything else. I find it hard to believe that you can't get the mdbass you need with noes is and an OS in a room that size. Have you tried raisin you XO up to 100 or 120hz and let the OS handle more mid? If I remember correctly you don't even have the OS running yet and you've already convinced yourself you need more?

I just got it up and running today. I announced it on the JTR thread and gave my initial assessment.

I must say, even turned up all the way to sickening, the bass is just completely different from MidBass you get from say a couple of 18sounds 2400s. One slaps you silly, while the other is more of a rumbling earthquake sound... the OS is the latter..
post #17 of 52
very fun cg, I will be watching biggrin.gif
post #18 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

very fun cg, I will be watching biggrin.gif

The local distributor said they don't have any of the drivers i want in stock and may have to wait till sometime next year to get them if i wanted... shucks!!!
post #19 of 52
oh jeez, that is unfortunate. Have you looked into the B&C's or peavey low riders?
post #20 of 52
"One slaps you silly, while the other is more of a rumbling earthquake sound... the OS is the latter.."

part of that effect is that you have them eq'd differently.

"slaps you silly" is mostly upper/midbass, 60-200hz or so.
post #21 of 52
"I think boxes are too complicated.. i might just go with what N8DOGG did.. he just made a sealed box... and that solves all the problems... "

sealed subs can be smaller and are definitely more forgiving to design tolerances, but they give up quite a bit of spl and that is why they are never used that way, professionally. if they can hit your spl target sealed, then that would be an easier path for sure.

winisd is freeware. https://www.facebook.com/WinISD

one of the things that it will allow you to do is to see the effects of various filters which will be important when trying to get the whole system integrated...
Edited by LTD02 - 10/18/13 at 5:29am
post #22 of 52
Sounds like a fun project! Will your processor be up to the task to do all the bass management and such? I would think you would need something like the Behringer DCX2496 to configure multiple extra channels and configure crossovers to run your MBMs off the left or right channel. LFE channel only goes to 120hz so you'd have to use a signal from your mains. Am i thinking correctly?
post #23 of 52
some bass management systems let you dump all the content below a pretty high threshold into the subwoofer channel.

lfe also goes through the subwoofer channel but shouldn't be confused with it.

subwoofer channel can carry lfe only if all speakers are set to large.

or subwoofer channel can carry lfe plus content from the mains where ever the crossover is set. I've seen some go pretty high, like 150hz or higher. BUT, a more sophisticated approach would be a good idea because the rolloff is almost always fixed at 12db/oct highpass and 24db/oct low pass in the avr and that may or may not give optimal results.
post #24 of 52
now i'm wondering if the orbit shifter is even set up properly. it is a front loaded horn, with a strong motored driver, and a powerful amp behind it. it should be slapping you a little silly. :-) unless either there is some sort of low pass filter, eq, or room problem that is robbing good integration with the mains through the mid-bass region.

have you experimented with a high crossover setting?
post #25 of 52
What would be the best way of setting this up so that the below 60hz content goes to the subs, and the 60hz to 220hz go to the mid-bass modules? Would a MiniDsp be able to set this up properly?
post #26 of 52
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

oh jeez, that is unfortunate. Have you looked into the B&C's or peavey low riders?

I can only get drivers that our local distributors carry, else the shipping will cost more than the price of the driver plus tax that could set me up like 3x the price of the drivers. For instance, if a driver is $300 USD, by the time i ship it to my country, add tax, it might be $600-$900 (drivers are very heavy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"One slaps you silly, while the other is more of a rumbling earthquake sound... the OS is the latter.."

part of that effect is that you have them eq'd differently.

"slaps you silly" is mostly upper/midbass, 60-200hz or so.

Yes, and that's why I think a true MBM like the one I am going to build will do a better job than the OS at those frequencies.... BIG engines (like you said before) is slower, and go lower, but will not be as clean up above... And HSU said the same thing. Bass needs to be split into 'lower and upper' if you want the best possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I think boxes are too complicated.. i might just go with what N8DOGG did.. he just made a sealed box... and that solves all the problems... "

sealed subs can be smaller and are definitely more forgiving to design tolerances, but they give up quite a bit of spl and that is why they are never used that way, professionally. if they can hit your spl target sealed, then that would be an easier path for sure.

winisd is freeware. https://www.facebook.com/WinISD

one of the things that it will allow you to do is to see the effects of various filters which will be important when trying to get the whole system integrated...

Thanks LT, I think I'll download winISD and play with it a bit and see if i can understand anything...

BTW: How much SPL would a sealed give up? I was thinking of brute force.. ie, 4 drivers should do it, even sealed?? Or, am I wrong? I figured even if i gave up 6 dB, 2 drivers will = 1, and 4=2, and that's plenty... plus, I don't have to worry if i made the box wrong and not getting the cleanest sound i want...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddig View Post

Sounds like a fun project! Will your processor be up to the task to do all the bass management and such? I would think you would need something like the Behringer DCX2496 to configure multiple extra channels and configure crossovers to run your MBMs off the left or right channel. LFE channel only goes to 120hz so you'd have to use a signal from your mains. Am i thinking correctly?

Actually this one baffles me too... I still am not sure how to get everything to place nice... I have a processor like the MiniDSP... And Ashley clone...

Like you said, not sure if my Onkyo receiver will put out anything more than 120hz on the LFE channel... N8DOGG's Integra puts up to 500hz and he uses his LFE channel for all his Mid Bass units plus subs... he just uses his 5x10 minidsp or something to split them all out to the different woofers..

Now, how do i know what frequencies the Onkyo 5010 puts out???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

some bass management systems let you dump all the content below a pretty high threshold into the subwoofer channel.

lfe also goes through the subwoofer channel but shouldn't be confused with it.

subwoofer channel can carry lfe only if all speakers are set to large.

or subwoofer channel can carry lfe plus content from the mains where ever the crossover is set. I've seen some go pretty high, like 150hz or higher. BUT, a more sophisticated approach would be a good idea because the rolloff is almost always fixed at 12db/oct highpass and 24db/oct low pass in the avr and that may or may not give optimal results.

What receiver does this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

now i'm wondering if the orbit shifter is even set up properly. it is a front loaded horn, with a strong motored driver, and a powerful amp behind it. it should be slapping you a little silly. :-) unless either there is some sort of low pass filter, eq, or room problem that is robbing good integration with the mains through the mid-bass region.

have you experimented with a high crossover setting?

Yes, i tried the highest on my receiver 120hz.. and again, LOTs and LOTs of output.. enough to shake down my house.. but it's still not the Bruce Lee lightning quick 'punches'.. they are more like wrecking balls... for an analogy.. they are great for cannons, not so much for bullets and drums...

The OS is just not designed for 'mid bass' and it never will be... especially if you want to go up to 250hz... the driver is just too heavy, and slow moving for that kind of frequencies... you need lighter, faster moving drivers... (and in fact, you have convinced me that for this exact same reason to go with the 2400s vs the tlw3000s... for my mid bass unit.. one is better than the other for this particular duty)

The best way i can explain it is if you go to a disco, and stand next to a Mid Bass module (like a cabinet with a couple of 18 inchers, you can literally feel quick punches to your chest... they are shorter throw, harder kick.. vs the OS which is longer throw, heavier punches...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

What would be the best way of setting this up so that the below 60hz content goes to the subs, and the 60hz to 220hz go to the mid-bass modules? Would a MiniDsp be able to set this up properly?

Yes, i believe teh minidsp will do just that... provided your LFE channel on your receiver can output above 120hz.. mine only does up to 120hz (the marantz now).. and if my future onkyo doesn't, maybe i'll need to hook up my center channel to the minidsp or processor and take the content from there...
post #27 of 52
Well.... it's not that they are "faster" drivers. wink.gif

This sounds like a fun project. smile.gif

Btw, what country are you in? Unless I missed it. redface.gif
post #28 of 52
Thread Starter 
^ Malaysia...
post #29 of 52
"Well.... it's not that they are "faster" drivers."

actually, that might be more right than not, but the answer may not be what it seems to be.

here is a good read, so i don't have to type so much. :-)

http://soundforums.net/varsity/6036-danley-sm80-others-shootout-monday-january-14-danley-gainesville-ga-5.html#post46382
post #30 of 52
my bad, right thread, wrong post. try this one:

http://soundforums.net/varsity/6036-danley-sm80-others-shootout-monday-january-14-danley-gainesville-ga-5.html#post46335

So my quick conclusion (thus far-more work to be done on this front-when I get time) is that the "apparent punch" is based on the increased level around and above 100hz. -ivan beaver

if you are high passing to your subs at 80hz or so, no wonder you can't get them to have any punch?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Dual 18Sounds TLW 3000 Mid Bass Unit