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If money is no object what would be the best DIY sub for home thester now? - Page 3

post #61 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

just farting around...80hz cutoff, 60hz cutoff, and hornresp file for the 60. this is the 2226 not the 2225 (it's what i had loaded in already). both at 1 watt 2pi space.

80hz, more sensitivity


60hz, more extension




in a ported cab, same driver is 97 db 1w1m over same region, so double sensitivity or more for limiting the passband...not bad.

Hm, pretty slick biggrin.gif I think I really just need to drag the 4648's back out. Throw them back in the mix and see how it all sounds biggrin.gif 2 channels of a DCX (until the shadow build takes one) Check. epx4000 still laying around, check. Space to fit everything behind the screen? Uh. um. Check

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I think he was threatening a duel offering. tongue.gif

Got it now biggrin.gif
post #62 of 112
"I think I really just need to drag the 4648's back out."

i just checked the spec sheet and with 131db potential and 100db sensitivity at 100hz, the sm60f would seem to eliminate any need for the jbl's.

part of what is confusing is that the danley horns are measured with 2.83v not 1 watt (with a minimum impedance of around 3 ohms, that translates into 2.6 watts or about 4.2 db gain over 1 watt; this isn't a poke at danley, most all of them do this).

that alone would give the jbl's about a 5db advantage in sensitivity measured the same way.

the 8" drivers also likely have something less than the motor structure of jbl's so will be more likely to compress or distort at high spl. i know horns have all kinds of advantages, but i'm not sure if yours are large enough to be doing much down in the zone of interest (ZOI). :-)
post #63 of 112
Well, my reason for adding the JBL's is to play them higher into the Danley's passband, say up to 200hz instead of where I cross the Danleys now at 80 or 100, to start a more aggressive house curve further up. Putting them on the LFE channel then, and using the DCX to EQ it out, I could gain a little more midbass through the whole system. Alhough I guess I could do the same thing by just EQing the post audyssey results with the DCX on the danleys themselves. Is that kind of what you were saying?
post #64 of 112
i was just saying that i don't think the danley's can do what the spec sheet suggests in the ZOI. uncompressed 130db peaks from 80-200hz or so should be enough, well, at least to get started. since you aren't getting there, something is up. with some real power on them, the jbl's should be able to get there. didn't mean to be confusing.
post #65 of 112
interestingly, that jbl design (slot loaded and rear ported) is pretty much a 6th order bandpass design.

for some reason, it didn't strike me until i saw the picture of the model in winisd.

same thing we cooked up for your sub-bass, just an octave (more or less) higher.

anyways...



that is kind of interesting ramification. cascading 6th order bandpass enclosures down through the bass. no electronic crossovers needed.
post #66 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Hm, pretty slick biggrin.gif I think I really just need to drag the 4648's back out.

As I keep tellin' ya! tongue.gif
post #67 of 112
HEy I've brought them out everytime you've suggested so far except for one...duh biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #68 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

Kutlow,

Don't take this the wrong way here, but it seems like your setup has never been right to begin with. Your room is under 3000cu ft and you have 3 DTS-10's. Don't you also have large Klipsch heritage mains as well or am I remembering that wrong? Anyway that system should be plenty for most anyone. The DTS-10's are rather more difficult than most systems to integrate and setup. They are not plug and play by any means with all of the wiring between the drivers and amplifier, the construction of the cabs and the response of the TH in the upper bass register after it is hooked up right. Add to that the room acoustics and integration with the mains and there are a lot of things that can go wrong. I suspect that there are some things going on in your system that are hampering its performance using the current equipment and the only real way to get to the bottom of things or to even make a recommendation as to what a "best" system upgrade would be, is to start measuring what is going on and take the guess work out. Otherwise you are simply throwing money at the issue blindly.

I seem to recall that you had reached out and asked if there was anyone who could come down to help you take some measurements and work on your setup. This is the right course of action. Did no one ever respond? Was there no one close who has REW going or Bill's system who could help out? Did you try to learn REW or Omnimic so you could do this yourself?

Ricci, I have

2-sh 50 powered by a crest 8200 which is supposed to have 1450w at 4 ohm
1- sh69 center powered by one side of a crest 9200 which is 2200 w at 4 ohm
3- dts-10's with the LMSR Upgrade powered by crest 9200 2200 w at 4 ohm
4- sh 100 powered by 2 crest 8200 which has 1450 w at 4 ohm.

It all sounds great during movies however during music I do not get enough chest punch. I AM looking forward to getting mx48 to calibrate them.
post #69 of 112
the sh50 have a 5 db dip from 100-200hz.

the dts10 go off the cliff at 100hz.

the punch that you are after is 100-200hz. you probably want that region 5-10db hot.

and that is before 1/4 wave reflections that are likely sucking out even more based on placement.

no wonder!



post #70 of 112
Thanks for backing me up. That being said, all thats needed is likely some eq, unless insane levels are required, in which case swapping the sh50s for sh60s would likely be a wise choice. Or adding a mb box, although integration would be difficult with no measuring
post #71 of 112
the woofers in the th50 seem to behave as 6th order bandpass. maybe that dip could be remedied by moving to higher sensitivity drivers, perhaps 15's, and a slightly higher tuning on the lower end. sensitivity in the 100-200hz region would seem like it could be raised by about 6db or so. ah...tradeoffs.
post #72 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

It all sounds great during movies however during music I do not get enough chest punch.

Do you listen to music as loud as movies?
post #73 of 112
Thread Starter 
yes, I want concert level. 130-140 db chest slam
post #74 of 112
I suspect a swap to FLHs will likely fix your issues. 2x dbh218s. that or swap your tops first. room placement is likely also muddying up your 100 to 200 range even more.
post #75 of 112
how about adding a single 15tbx100 front loaded mbm to fill in the 100-200hz hole?

105db 1w1m 2pi space, ~40% efficiency, ~250 liters, 2000 watts goes to 140db.

"par" makes the expansion look like rocket ship nozzle, but the sides would be straight. simple one fold design.









post #76 of 112
Post #27 seems like it covers all the bases and if doesn't out gates it could be manipulated to be whatever you want. 104db efficiency per side or all wired together to yield 107db. Who needs horns?
post #77 of 112
Has the OP ever measured his system? Like say: 2hz to 20khz at 100db with a normal SPL mic.
and then MAX output via a TermLab mic?

Or did I totally miss that part?

Maybe he is sitting in a -30db null at 110hz and he doesn't even know it, or some such....

Wouldn't it be good to know before he drops $10,000 on some new subwoofers?
post #78 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Ricci, I have

2-sh 50 powered by a crest 8200 which is supposed to have 1450w at 4 ohm
1- sh69 center powered by one side of a crest 9200 which is 2200 w at 4 ohm
3- dts-10's with the LMSR Upgrade powered by crest 9200 2200 w at 4 ohm
4- sh 100 powered by 2 crest 8200 which has 1450 w at 4 ohm.

It all sounds great during movies however during music I do not get enough chest punch. I AM looking forward to getting mx48 to calibrate them.

Here is what less than half of the output of my system does (just 4 sealed subs) according to box modelling software.
But even with all 10+ subwoofers going
+ mains
+ amps @ clipping, with 35000watts (clones, itech's, EP4000's etc etc)

the SPL according to my CM-140, never exceeds 120db. So I don't know if it's my mic that is lying or the box modelling software, or if it's my system, or if that is just the reality of it.... confused.gifconfused.gifconfused.gif

and my room is not much bigger than yours.



(and my videos posted above are louder than this, supposedly)



I've been wanting to get a TermLab mic for 5 years now... one day... one day.
post #79 of 112
Something to keep in mind, a good EQ for movies is not an EQ that is gonna give you much chest thump without blowing out your ears from the highs. I boost my subs which are on 0-90hz duty in 2 channel (music) mode by 20+db when listening to stuff that's bass heavy. You can chase flat FR's all you want, but they're no good when you want some crazy bass.
post #80 of 112
As of today, here is the MAX SPL my system can output just before the Gruppen clones start clipping (and all other amps).

This is continuous Music-Program material.

No clipping, no bottoming, no audible distortion, (this SPL is infinitely sustainable FYI).


(I often listen this loudly BTW. But WHY anyone needs to listen this loudly I'm not entirely sure! ROFL biggrin.gif)

10,600watts going to the two SEOS's and ~20,400watts going to the subs. (Peak Power of course)
post #81 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

Something to keep in mind, a good EQ for movies is not an EQ that is gonna give you much chest thump without blowing out your ears from the highs. I boost my subs which are on 0-90hz duty in 2 channel (music) mode by 20+db when listening to stuff that's bass heavy. You can chase flat FR's all you want, but they're no good when you want some crazy bass.


Too true. I find movie levels I want lower settings not to overpower my ears. I also have DTS-10's and have a BFD1124P for EQ. It has two settings, one for movies which uses a house curve sub levels are cut more than boosted with xover at 60Hz. The 2nd setting for music which uses a hard knee house curve is boosted up to +6-9dB with xover at 80Hz.

Maybe MX48 can set Kutlow up with two curves to satisfy his listening mode.
post #82 of 112
Why not just build some mid-bass cabinets with the JBL-2242 or if those are too expensive go with the JBL-2226, or perhaps an AE TD18?
post #83 of 112
I do enjoy all the speculation, but until the room/system is measured properly, we can't be certain what's going on. I can't imagine more cabinets, or different cabinets, would be needed. I'd focus any expenditures on bass trapping.


Placement overview

SBIR (the 80-200 region, diffracts and folds back into the adjacent boundaries, then returns to blend destructively with the direct sound)

Crossover points (utilize whatever combo is nessesary to assure region of interest is adequately reproduced)

Time alignment (assure both sub system and mains are working in concert) (secondarily, often different low pass filters can help with disparate subs, manipulating how all the sources sum)

System EQ (as a last step)

System optimization is an iterative process, and can be tedious. Once thru the list, you have to constantly go back thru each respective control point, again and again,... zeroing in on the desired result. Each element is dependent on the others, resulting in a nearly infinitely variable number of combinations. The diligence pays off, and I'd guess very few really pursue it far enough.
---

Acoustically, bass traps damp the LF, tightening up the LF decay times, increasing punch, detail, note to note delineation.
post #84 of 112
+1 FOH
post #85 of 112
Quote:
Once thru the list, you have to constantly go back thru each respective control point, again and again

That's for sure!

This is why I have to make sure I have enough time when I go to Kutlow's.
Edited by MX48 - 11/1/13 at 7:44am
post #86 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

As of today, here is the MAX SPL my system can output just before the Gruppen clones start clipping (and all other amps).

This is continuous Music-Program material.

No clipping, no bottoming, no audible distortion, (this SPL is infinitely sustainable FYI).


(I often listen this loudly BTW. But WHY anyone needs to listen this loudly I'm not entirely sure! ROFL biggrin.gif)

10,600watts going to the two SEOS's and ~20,400watts going to the subs. (Peak Power of course)

SEOS can not take 10KW's.
post #87 of 112
BassThatHz,

Been out of the game for a while and noticed that since then you've gone more mad than a mad scientist! eek.gif

I see you've bought 7 SEOS kits plus 4x lms's 18's?

and my friends think I'm crazy! rolleyes.gif

Thanks for making me look NORMAL!

Carry on sir biggrin.gif
post #88 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

That's for sure!

This is why I have to make sure I have enough time when I go to Kutlow's.

smile.gif

Best of luck, I'm sure it'll be fun and a fascinating experience. Please, share any notes about the efforts, if at all possible.
post #89 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

SEOS can not take 10KW's.

Exactly. That's why I do it, so that it will never run out, even at MAX with the worst input signals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

BassThatHz,

Been out of the game for a while and noticed that since then you've gone more mad than a mad scientist! eek.gif

I see you've bought 7 SEOS kits plus 4x lms's 18's?

and my friends think I'm crazy! rolleyes.gif

Thanks for making me look NORMAL!

Carry on sir biggrin.gif

Also a BDP-105, a XSP-1, three cleanboxes, and a 2000volt-amp Sinewave UPS to go with it. and more to come. biggrin.gif
post #90 of 112
"Maybe he is sitting in a -30db null at 110hz and he doesn't even know it, or some such...."

what we do know is that at 110hz, the dts with a 4th order low pass at 80 should still be contributing about 2db worth of spl (but it is zero) and the mains have about a 5db spl gap in the 100-200hz ballpark, so that's 7db right there. and given that +10db relative to the higher frequencies wouldn't be completely out of line around 100hz or so for subjectively good sound, that is 17db off target. as was mentioned, reflections off the boundaries are likely killing things too. could have 1 or more big cancellations in the 100-150hz ballpark. but even with reflections eliminated as an issue, there is still 17db +/- missing. i'm surprised this fact isn't being given more attention.
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