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Blu Rays with incorrectly encoded for RGB PC Levels.

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
I'm making a list for titles sent to market with RGB PC Levels as opposed to RGB Video Level standard. This results in blacks never dipping below medium gray. As of yet no recalls have been made.

*The Arrival: Lionsgate, 2009 US
*Maniac: Blue Underground. 2010 US
*Double Impact 20th Century Fox, 2012 US
*Margin Call Lionsgate, 2011 US
*All Ladies Do It Arrow Video, 2013 UK
*The Key Arrow Video, 2013 UK
*Frankenstein's Army MPI, 2013 US
*Dawn of the Dead (U.S. Theatrical & Extended Cannes cuts) Happinet, 2013 JP
Edited by Fanboyz - 1/8/14 at 10:53pm
post #2 of 56
There's quite a few anime releases like this, the ones I know of for sure are Serial Experiments Lain and Black Lagoon (only the US releases from Funimation, the Japanese releases are fine).
post #3 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I'm making a list for titles sent to market with blacks set to the wrong standard, as of yet no recalls have been made.

* "Maniac" : Blue Underground. 2010
*"Double Impact": 20th Century Fox, 2012

You mean PC vs Studio video levels on disc? IRE is for analog video only. And for analog video IRE 7.5 was the standard for NTSC video IIRC. (I also seem to recall Japan used NTSC video with IRE 0 for reference black.) Prior to digital output on DVD players, there were many discussions about this in the DVD player forum.

larry
post #4 of 56
Thread Starter 
What I mean is the color black is medium gray- because it's mastered to look "correct" on a monitor where black is 7.5 ire.
post #5 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

What I mean is the color black is medium gray- because it's mastered to look "correct" on a monitor where black is 7.5 ire.

You got me beat on this one, I have no idea what your on about?

post #6 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

What I mean is the color black is medium gray- because it's mastered to look "correct" on a monitor where black is 7.5 ire.

Most noticeable when there are matting bars I suspect.
post #7 of 56
Thread Starter 
What I mean is the disc is meant to look normal on a display that has black at 7.5 ire.
So on a normal monitor, what was supposed to be black and below black is medium gray.
post #8 of 56
I know exactly what you're talking about. Haven't run into too many that exhibit this problem, but I have a unique perspective on one of them! I was the cinematographer on a Mario Van Peebles movie called "All Things Fall Apart", starring 50 Cent and Ray Liotta. I supervised the digital color timing at a professional post facility with a top notch colorist, and when I signed off on it, the black levels were at rock bottom (but not crushed). The deliverables left that post facility "correct". Subsequently, the movie aired on BET television with the correct black levels, and is available on all major streaming outlets with the correct black levels...

However, the blu-ray (from Image Entertainment) was somehow authored with incorrect video levels, resulting in a severely "washed out" and "flat" image. From a technical perspective, the "black to white" range is 30-218 instead of the standard video level of 16-235. Thus, there are no real black levels at all during the movie; all black is elevated to "low grey". The entire program is affected, but the clearest evidence (for those analyzing with scopes) is the elevated black during the end credits--which is always indisputably set at "pure black".

Anyhoo... this was very frustrating for me as a DP. Everyone over-estimates the power that a cinematographer has over the final blu-ray product. Fact is, once we sign off on a title in the DI suite, there are a lot of variables that can still screw things up.
post #9 of 56

Ah now i am with you, you are on about the broadcast standard or none HD used for DVD etc when video black should be at 7.5 IRE. I think.

post #10 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd213 View Post

There's quite a few anime releases like this, the ones I know of for sure are Serial Experiments Lain and Black Lagoon (only the US releases from Funimation, the Japanese releases are fine).

Very true.. Ninja Scroll US release suffers this too.. Japanese is fine.
post #11 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

What I mean is the disc is meant to look normal on a display that has black at 7.5 ire.
So on a normal monitor, what was supposed to be black and below black is medium gray.

Here's a decent link that was the second one that popped up in google when I typed in "IRE 7.5". http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

You can have a incorrect or poorly encoded digital master even if the analog source is "correct". It's all up to the person "turning the knobs". smile.gif

larry

edit: more good info that may help explain what is or could be happening: http://www.avsforum.com/t/494606/go-to-guide-for-source-options/0_50
post #12 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_breeze View Post

I know exactly what you're talking about. Haven't run into too many that exhibit this problem, but I have a unique perspective on one of them! I was the cinematographer on a Mario Van Peebles movie called "All Things Fall Apart", starring 50 Cent and Ray Liotta. I supervised the digital color timing at a professional post facility with a top notch colorist, and when I signed off on it, the black levels were at rock bottom (but not crushed). The deliverables left that post facility "correct". Subsequently, the movie aired on BET television with the correct black levels, and is available on all major streaming outlets with the correct black levels...

However, the blu-ray (from Image Entertainment) was somehow authored with incorrect video levels, resulting in a severely "washed out" and "flat" image. From a technical perspective, the "black to white" range is 30-218 instead of the standard video level of 16-235. Thus, there are no real black levels at all during the movie; all black is elevated to "low grey". The entire program is affected, but the clearest evidence (for those analyzing with scopes) is the elevated black during the end credits--which is always indisputably set at "pure black".

Anyhoo... this was very frustrating for me as a DP. Everyone over-estimates the power that a cinematographer has over the final blu-ray product. Fact is, once we sign off on a title in the DI suite, there are a lot of variables that can still screw things up.
Sounds like a wrong assumption was made somewhere along the line and they did a conversion from PC -> studio or vice versa. Maybe more than once.

larry
post #13 of 56
7.5 IRE setup is for analog NTSC video only, and only in North America. Japanese NTSC, and PAL, had black at 0 IRE.

Unless the BD you're watching is sourced from an SD upconvert, setup/pedestal isn't the issue. Like Larry says, it's probably a video/PC levels error.

I've also got a lot of masters from Japan that have black level set very high, which we've corrected before encoding. I have no idea what's going on over there but it seems their technical standards aren't as strict as Western post facilities.
post #14 of 56
The Arrival” on Blu-ray has the pedestal (black level) set too high. IIRC, the DVD did not have this problem.
post #15 of 56
Thread Starter 
finally realized why the THX Panasonic TV's have a black level light/dark setting now.
post #16 of 56
Risky Business definitely seems to have incorrect black levels (boosted).
post #17 of 56
Thread Starter 
That's not what the issue described here.

More accurately it is PC levels.
post #18 of 56
In the Shadow of the Moon seems to have this problem - lots of greyish blacks especially during the talking heads scenes.

Setting the black level on the display to "normal" (7.5 IRE) instead of the usual "expanded" (0 IRE) clears up the problem - this is the same solution I use for viewing DVDs.
post #19 of 56
I believe Margin Call has this problem.
post #20 of 56
Thread Starter 
yes, and sadly when I saw it theatrically it was like that. So it isn't just the Blu Ray encode but the DI as well.
Very sad.
post #21 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

7.5 IRE setup is for analog NTSC video only, and only in North America. Japanese NTSC, and PAL, had black at 0 IRE.

Unless the BD you're watching is sourced from an SD upconvert, setup/pedestal isn't the issue. Like Larry says, it's probably a video/PC levels error.

I've also got a lot of masters from Japan that have black level set very high, which we've corrected before encoding. I have no idea what's going on over there but it seems their technical standards aren't as strict as Western post facilities.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're purposefully messing them up to make overseas releases inferior to their own more expensive domestic Japanese releases, as those are almost always fine.
I also wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people still mistakenly think that they have to compensate for the IRE difference between NTSC and NTSC-J.
post #22 of 56
The European releases of The Howling and Flash Gordon suffer from this, as well. As does the Canadian Oss 117 Rio Ne Repond Plus.
post #23 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

7.5 IRE setup is for analog NTSC video only, and only in North America. Japanese NTSC, and PAL, had black at 0 IRE.

Unless the BD you're watching is sourced from an SD upconvert, setup/pedestal isn't the issue. Like Larry says, it's probably a video/PC levels error.

I've also got a lot of masters from Japan that have black level set very high, which we've corrected before encoding. I have no idea what's going on over there but it seems their technical standards aren't as strict as Western post facilities.
It's incredibly common on Japanese anime releases distributed by American companies, who often license the HDCAM SR broadcast masters for their own BD release. I see messed up IRE levels on anime Blu-rays all the time. I think some of the people handling the masters often miss the needed IRE adjustment.
post #24 of 56
Thread Starter 
Is everyone else's copy of Double Impact encoded with PC Levels or just mine?
Caps A Holic's has it looking fine, but the uploader could have corrected the flaw when he uploaded it.
post #25 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Is everyone else's copy of Double Impact encoded with PC Levels or just mine?
Caps A Holic's has it looking fine, but the uploader could have corrected the flaw when he uploaded it.
Yeah, mine was effed up too. Shame, because aside from that, it's not a bad transfer.
post #26 of 56
Thread Starter 
Well, at least we all know hot to mitigate it now.
post #27 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Stranger View Post

It's incredibly common on Japanese anime releases distributed by American companies, who often license the HDCAM SR broadcast masters for their own BD release. I see messed up IRE levels on anime Blu-rays all the time. I think some of the people handling the masters often miss the needed IRE adjustment.

It wouldn't be an IRE adjustment - setup/pedestal was a peculiarity of American analog NTSC only.

It'll be some other bizarre reason. Language barriers permit me finding out exactly what it is at present. If I'm ever over there I need to knock on some doors!
post #28 of 56
What about Frankenstein's Army? Does anyone know if it looked this way theatrically?
post #29 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I'm making a list for titles sent to market with RGB PC Levels as opposed to RGB Video Level standard. This results in blacks never dipping below medium gray.
Unless I am misunderstanding the descriptions, it seems as if the opposite direction is happening; rather than the 16-235 video levels, you are seeing something narrower, not the wider 0-255 range of PC RGB. The original Blu-ray release of Dirty Dancing is supposedly encoded with PC RGB levels (0-255), making its black really "blacker than black" on any equipment that is not reset/adjusted to handle it (if possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_breeze View Post

However, the blu-ray (from Image Entertainment) was somehow authored with incorrect video levels, resulting in a severely "washed out" and "flat" image. From a technical perspective, the "black to white" range is 30-218 instead of the standard video level of 16-235.
This "double-reduction" of range sounds more like what Fanboyz is describing.

The mixup or confusion of PC-versus-video RGB levels with 7.5 IRE setup is easy to understand, especially since a black level of 16 is near 7.5% higher than a black level of 0.
post #30 of 56
Can anyone explain how Coppola is able to recreate those blacker than black levels for his movies within the realm of 16-235?
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