or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Blu-ray Software › Blu Rays with incorrectly encoded for RGB PC Levels.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Blu Rays with incorrectly encoded for RGB PC Levels. - Page 2

post #31 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason One View Post

I believe Margin Call has this problem.
Yes. mad.gif
post #32 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I'm making a list for titles sent to market with RGB PC Levels as opposed to RGB Video Level standard. This results in blacks never dipping below medium gray.
Unless I am misunderstanding the descriptions, it seems as if the opposite direction is happening; rather than the 16-235 video levels, you are seeing something narrower, not the wider 0-255 range of PC RGB. The original Blu-ray release of Dirty Dancing is supposedly encoded with PC RGB levels (0-255), making its black really "blacker than black" on any equipment that is not reset/adjusted to handle it (if possible).

Quote:
Originally Posted by steel_breeze View Post

However, the blu-ray (from Image Entertainment) was somehow authored with incorrect video levels, resulting in a severely "washed out" and "flat" image. From a technical perspective, the "black to white" range is 30-218 instead of the standard video level of 16-235.
This "double-reduction" of range sounds more like what Fanboyz is describing.

The mixup or confusion of PC-versus-video RGB levels with 7.5 IRE setup is easy to understand, especially since a black level of 16 is near 7.5% higher than a black level of 0.


No, when a title is encoded for PC levels- the blacks are gray.

If you watch a normal title on with RGB PC levels there will be terrible black crush.
post #33 of 56
How am I getting it wrong, then? Doesn't "encoded with video levels/16-235" mean that "a block of video at level 17 is just a bit lighter than black"? It seems that if you watch that on a display set for PC levels, it would still show that block as "level 17" but on a display where level 2 is just a bit lighter than black, level 17 would appear as gray.

Black crush would seem to be the result of encoding dark grays at PC levels (therefore including levels 1-15) but watching them on a display set for "video" (where 16 is black and everything below that is also now black). I cannot understand where it goes backwards from what I describe.
post #34 of 56
If video is properly encoded for PC levels where reference black is 0 and 0 is sent to a display that is calibrated for Studio levels (ref black is 16), then this value of 0 will be considered far below black, and be shown as black, and a value of 17 will barely be shown even though in the video content it is 17/255 (254?) above black. So everything will be shown "darker" than it should be and crush blacks

If video is properly encoded for Studio levels and send to a display calibrated for PC levels, a value of 16 sent to the display will be shown as some form of grey because the display thinks 0 is black. So everything will be shown "lighter" than it should be.

I think I just said what Chris said above. These are the two scenarios that can happen when both the display and video are "correct", just mismatched. Now if you have video that was improperly encoded, maybe due to a conversion between PC and Studio levels somewhere along the line, then you'll get somewhat different results with respect to correctness when sent to a display calibrated to either standard. This also doesn't include conversion between the standards done by one of the devices, for whatever reason, and how the conversion is done.

larry
post #35 of 56
Yes, Larry, your description sounds the same as what I expect to have happen.
post #36 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

What I mean is the color black is medium gray- because it's mastered to look "correct" on a monitor where black is 7.5 ire.

But PC Levels has 0=black so how could that ever make things appear to be washed out? If you have the tv set to pc levels it would look fine but if you have it set to video levels it would look extra dark, clipped at black and at white. It sounds more like they encoded in reverse and went from 16 black to 32=black.
post #37 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

No, when a title is encoded for PC levels- the blacks are gray.

If you watch a normal title on with RGB PC levels there will be terrible black crush.

No, not at all.

PC levels are 0=black, 255=white
video levels are 16=black,239=white

if you watch something encoded for video levels on a display set to pc levels and don't enable levels expansion than it will look faded out with dull blacks and dingy whites and contrast and saturation will appear a bit too weak, if you enable levels expansion then it will look fine

if you watch something encoded for video levels on a display set for video levels then it will look fine (unless you enable levels expansion and then it will crush blacks and blow whites, contrast and saturation will appear a bit too intense)

if you watch something encoded for pc levels on a display set to pc levels it will look perfect unless you enable levels expansion and then it will " ".

if you watch something encoded for pc levels on a display set to video levels it will look " " unless you enable levels expansion and then it will look like " " only doubly so.

the levels expansion stuff gets tricky since some programs follow video card settings and others don't and some don't allow change and nvidia card foolishly default to video levels when connected to an hdtv unless you set special toggles in a display info file before fulling installing their video drivers
post #38 of 56
For what it's worth, this is trivial to fix if you're using a HTPC running madVR.
In the madVR config, you can set up a shortcut key for "source levels - toggle" which will switch between Auto, PC (0-255), TV (16-235), double expansion (30-218), or triple expansion (42-203).
You can also tag files with "levels=PC / TV / doubleExp / tripleExp" in the filename if you're ripping the films rather than playing off the disc.

There are similar options to fix the colorspace if a film has been mastered to SMPTE-C rather than BT.709 for example.
post #39 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

I'm making a list for titles sent to market with RGB PC Levels as opposed to RGB Video Level standard. This results in blacks never dipping below medium gray. As of yet no recalls have been made.

*Maniac: Blue Underground. 2010
*Double Impact 20th Century Fox, 2012
*Margin Call Lionsgate, 2011
*All Ladies Do It Arrow Video, 2013
*The Key Arrow Video, 2013

Interesting - i wonder if this is what happened with the US bluray of Margin Call. The blacks are severely washed out. The EU version doesn't suffer from this.
post #40 of 56
Thread Starter 
Yes that's the US disc of Margin Call and it is affected.
post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Yes that's the US disc of Margin Call and it is affected.

Sorry - I should read the entire first post next time. ;-)
post #42 of 56
Thread Starter 
All 3 versions in Happinet's Dawn of The Dead box set.
post #43 of 56
Glad I didn't pre-order that. Strange though, since it's usually the Japanese who get it right with anime Blu-rays and Americans who mess up the black levels.

I guess I'll still get the theatrical cut if it's still an overall upgrade, are there screenshots anywhere?
post #44 of 56
Thread Starter 
the last 10 minutes use the master as the Anchor Bay/Arrow versions, I don't know why.
It's a waste.
post #45 of 56
Thread Starter 
Excuse me about the Japanese Dawn set.
It's only the US and Extended cuts.
I changed the first post to reflect this.
post #46 of 56
Is there a way to be sure via software by using something like mediainfo? I have several IFC Films releases that all seem to suffer from this and I'd like to be sure.
post #47 of 56
Whenever I detect this problem, I just turn on my 16-235->0-255 shaders in media player classic home cinema. So nice to have a PC as player.
post #48 of 56
So switching your player/tv to "limited" colorspace mode will display these discs correctly?
post #49 of 56
Correctly means, for my eyes, displaying black correctly. Incorrect range results in the movie looking like it has the brightness turned way way up, so much that you need to turn down brightness with ~7-8 knobs to see some black. So if you visually dont detect such a thing , no need to change anything.

Look at this, can you spot the wrong one based on how the black looks ?



post #50 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiaNaix View Post

So switching your player/tv to "limited" colorspace mode will display these discs correctly?

Switch to Expanded or PC Level.
post #51 of 56
I can confirm "The Arival" and add to the List,

- Elizabeth the golden Age, always looks washed out, dark level never reaches black.
- My Sassy Girl (Jap 2001) Japan Blu-Ray, same Problem.
post #52 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Switch to Expanded or PC Level.

I see that you too have an Oppo player. What is the "Oppo-ese" term for the referenced setting? Thanks!
post #53 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Switch to Expanded or PC Level.

I see that you too have an Oppo player. What is the "Oppo-ese" term for the referenced setting? Thanks!


Oppo'ese setting for these titles:

Color Space---RGB PC Level.
post #54 of 56
The recently release blu-ray of "The Ghost and Mrs. Muir" has this problem and should be added to the list.

Strange, because all the reviews talk of "inky blacks" but everything was middle gray on my Panasonic projector (verified with the built-in waveform monitor) until I switched my Oppo over to RGB-PC levels, and everything suddenly snapped into place.
post #55 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanboyz View Post

Oppo'ese setting for these titles:

Color Space---RGB PC Level.

Thanks so much!
post #56 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Risky Business definitely seems to have incorrect black levels (boosted).

 

^ Agree with this.


IMO, you can also add Raiders of the Lost Ark to the list. The blacks are somewhat inconsistent, but generally too high on this imho. There's a scene of Indy's back that's mostly in shadow at ~2:53 that's a good example.


The picture looks much better if I drop the black level on my display below video reference levels, so the blacks in scenes like the one above match the black bars above and below the picture. I would test the new black level settings with several different scenes though, because the levels are not consistent on this. Some more thoughts on this here...

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1505164/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-blu-ray-official-avsforum-review/#post_24274509


Edited by ADU - 1/27/14 at 6:25pm
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Blu-ray Software
AVS › AVS Forum › Blu-ray & HD DVD › Blu-ray Software › Blu Rays with incorrectly encoded for RGB PC Levels.