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Synergy Horns-Dayton and PRV..... - Page 2

post #31 of 129
*subscribed*
post #32 of 129
What size compression driver and throat entry does Tom Danley use on his SH50's and SH60's? What about on his other stuff?
post #33 of 129
BMS 4550 1" CD on the SH-50. I believe the SH-60 is the same but I haven't seen one in person so not positive.

I wonder if the Denovo DNA-205 would be good in this design. I wish I still had my clone intact so I could try it. Still have the cab and someday may go back to it for fun. I was using 4 Pyle Pro PDMR-5's for the mids.
Edited by MX48 - 10/30/13 at 6:16am
post #34 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX48 View Post

BMS 4550 1" CD on the SH-50. I believe the SH-60 is the same but I haven't seen one in person so not positive.

I wonder if the Denovo DNA-205 would be good in this design. I wish I still had my clone intact so I could try it. Still have the cab and someday may go back to it for fun. I was using 4 Pyle Pro PDMR-5's for the mids.

I am more curious about how the DNA-360 would perform in this configuration as it is said to be very similar to the BMS-4550 that Danley uses in his SH-60 and SH-50.
post #35 of 129
Yeah, but (i dont know the XOs) if the XO between the mids and CD is fairly high, one wouldnt need the lower grunt of the 360 over the 205. And the 205 is no worse, might even be better than the 360 abit higher up (if i remember correctly)
post #36 of 129
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa View Post

Yeah, but (i dont know the XOs) if the XO between the mids and CD is fairly high, one wouldnt need the lower grunt of the 360 over the 205. And the 205 is no worse, might even be better than the 360 abit higher up (if i remember correctly)

Based on 1/4 wavelength spacing and where most people tap the mids into the horns, I'd expect crossover points somewhere between 1100-1400Hz. Maybe a bit lower...maybe a bit higher. I looked at the Denovo drivers, but went with the PRV since Parts Express has a great return policy.

Scott
post #37 of 129
Thread Starter 
Next up is hole marking and drilling...for the driver mounting points I wanted to use threaded inserts. It happens the brass ones I used need a 1/4" hole. They are 6-32 which has plenty of holding power for an 8" woofer of the excursion of the Dayton.

I drilled each hole on my drill press.

Next I made marking drills for the woofer and midrange taps. I picked the smallest drill I had (not sure what size) and drilled all the way through since the back is what got marked. This gave me a precise location to drill on the front.

When I flipped the piece over I discovered that the hole was somewhat difficult to find...the MDF had "self healed" so I used a tiny plane to shave off the material covering the hole.

I drilled the tap ports for the woofers and mids from the front side of the horn using forstner bits. I didn't care too much about tearout on the back side since I knew I'd be grinding away at those areas anyway.

I then used a combination of dremel tools and routers to make clearence for the surrounds and cut aggressive frustums into both the mid and woofer holes.





post #38 of 129
Scott, how did you determine what size holes were required for the speaker taps?
post #39 of 129
Thread Starter 
So next up is threaded insert installation. Buy. The. Tool.

Yes, there is a tool.

Buy it. It's very helpful. Also, install them on a very sturdy surface so you can press down hard as you are screwing them in. It helps prevent the MDF from pulling up...it still does, but not as bad. Then sand it flush. I put a dot of sanding sealer in the holes before screwing them in, in hopes that it would prevent the MDF from pulling up. I'm not sure it worked.

You can also see the jig I built to help hold the full height pieces.

The secondary flare and the primary flare were put together using gorilla glue which expands, aiding in assembly even if there is a small gap.

That said, work to minimize the gap. Gorilla glue isn't all that strong, so if you have large gaps you might consider secondary blocks, to increase glue surface area...I did on mine even though my gaps were pretty small.

I held the secondary flares in place using tape, and worked very slowly to ensure that each piece was glued on as square as possible. It was probably a week between start to finish since I was only gluing 1 secondary flare piece a day, one morning one at night. Patience is rewarded here....dry fit as much as possible.


post #40 of 129
Wow! That looks nice! Did you have a blueprint or existing design to copy? I am just curious as to how you figured out the proper deminsions and such??
post #41 of 129
Another option for imperfect joints is to use epoxy paste, which will be stronger than the substrate material.
post #42 of 129
Thread Starter 
So next up is the process I used to smooth out the tweeter entry points. As far as I can see in the pictures on the Danley site...they don't do that. But I did...I kept reading about higher order modes...etc....so figured out a way to do it.

First I got two part epoxy putty to use as the filler. Next I drilled a piece of 1/8" MDF with a 1" hole. I covered it with masking tape, figuring that the epoxy would stick to the tape and the tape would come off the guide.

I then taped the guide to my entry throat and used it to build up and sand down the epoxy putty.

I thought I had gotten great photos of it.

I didn't, or if I did they are buried somewhere on my hard drive.

Scott



post #43 of 129
Synergies are the one speaker that I wish were available to the home audio group. I know Tom would like to but it doesn't seem viable to his company. Still I think this might be the big step forward in audio in our generation.

Don't get me wrong, the whole SEOS concept is a big step in that direction, but synergy just seems to be so sophisticated in design to concept to implementation. That said, I've never heard them.
post #44 of 129
I just can't say enough how aww inspiring this build is! I would absolutely love to have a trio of these Synergies in my ht! Does anyone know how much the real deal Danleys are? I thought that I had remembered seeing some prices that were up in the thousands per speaker, but I can't remember exactly.

Nice build! I certainly wish that I had the woodworking skills to accomplish something like this! Do any of you guys know of any one that would be capable of building these cabs for a fee?
post #45 of 129
I still think that we need to have a flat pack from Erich to make for an easy build. I think that a Synergy style horn would sell very, very well but of course would need approval from Tom Danley first. Come on Erich, what are you waiting for? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #46 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

I still think that we need to have a flat pack from Erich to make for an easy build. I think that a Synergy style horn would sell very, very well but of course would need approval from Tom Danley first. Come on Erich, what are you waiting for? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

I still think that we need to have a flat pack from Erich to make for an easy build. I think that a Synergy style horn would sell very, very well but of course would need approval from Tom Danley first. Come on Erich, what are you waiting for? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
DIY (for your own non commercial usage) is one thing-but when somebody starts to sell a patented idea-THAT is where the legal issues start.
post #47 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

I still think that we need to have a flat pack from Erich to make for an easy build. I think that a Synergy style horn would sell very, very well but of course would need approval from Tom Danley first. Come on Erich, what are you waiting for? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I agree completely! That would be so cool to have as a DIY option in a flat pack, unfortunately, as Ivan stated, there is no way that making a DIY synergy flat pack would be legal, and I would expect that Tom Danley would not approve this idea as it would likely violate the patent law and hurt his sales.

On the other hand, it might not cut into his sales as most of us can not afford the real deal synergies, so we would not be potentially lost customers. I wonder when the patient will run out so that others can copy this design?
post #48 of 129
I wouldn't try to get any Synergy flat packs or kits made up without permission from Tom. Plus there would be royalties added in to pay him. Bwaslo and I had discussed talking with Tom about getting some kits made up, or small completed versions. I send Tom an email about 6 months ago to see if it would be feasible, but didn't hear back. Maybe he was too busy, or he forgot to reply, I'm not sure.

My guess is that they don't offer the 'residential' kits because it would require a lot of extra resources to deal with all the questions that would come with it. But I could handle all of that and would clearly tell people that they had to direct questions to me versus Danley. Doing this would certainly sway me into working on audio kits and speakers full time. biggrin.gif

Ivan, I'd really like to get either a DIY kit or smaller residential model made up for the Synergy and maybe even a smaller tapped horn (kit or completed).

I realize it wouldn't be cheap but I could get the funding together to get the project completed and make it 'residential friendly'. I'd also do all the grunt work to get the kits manufactured, do all the packaging/shipping, and handle the emails. We would obviously pay royalties for the design.
post #49 of 129
I wonder if a licensing deal could be worked?
post #50 of 129
Do it!
post #51 of 129
Ivan I specifically stated that this would need Danley approval before proceeding. I would never promote the theft of the Danley genius.

With the resources that Erich has made available to the DIY crowd and with backing and royalties paid to the Danley company this venture could turn out very well for all of us. It would of course promote Danley products and provide a stepping stone of sorts to those who are not interested in the high end Danley Synergy line. As many auto manufacturer' do you could provide a place for people to start out with Danley products and then graduate possibly graduate to the high end offerings down the road. It's fantastic publicity!
post #52 of 129
That's why they made the molded horns smile.gif the sm60f is pretty residentially friendly, MUCH smaller than the sh50 and is an incredible speaker.
post #53 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

That's why they made the molded horns smile.gif the sm60f is pretty residentially friendly, MUCH smaller than the sh50 and is an incredible speaker.
Looking at it's FR, I'm not sure I'd want to listen to that in a home environment. http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/SM-60F-spec-sheet1.pdf
post #54 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Looking at it's FR, I'm not sure I'd want to listen to that in a home environment. http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/SM-60F-spec-sheet1.pdf

That certainly does not correlate with my experience. I have owned NHT 2.9s, Magnepan 1.6s and built Jim Holtz sealed Statements and I would not trade any of those for the SM60Fs that I currently use. Of course, this is just my opinion. BTW, I still possess the Maggies and Statements.

Mike
post #55 of 129
Danley SH series (specifically the SH69) was on my short list when buying new mains a couple years ago, I too was concerned wrt the measured FR. As it turned out, I pursued a different direction. But I have heard the wonderful magic act that is capable with Synergy approach.

Would the somewhat ragged FR matter? I don't know, but the inherent superior characteristics of the design (controlled directivity coherent point source) remain.

I trust Beast's take on it, I'm guessing it's everything it's said to be.
post #56 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Looking at it's FR, I'm not sure I'd want to listen to that in a home environment. http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/SM-60F-spec-sheet1.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikela View Post

That certainly does not correlate with my experience. I have owned NHT 2.9s, Magnepan 1.6s and built Jim Holtz sealed Statements and I would not trade any of those for the SM60Fs that I currently use. Of course, this is just my opinion. BTW, I still possess the Maggies and Statements.
Mike

confused.gif

I don't understand.
post #57 of 129
Omfg! How on Earth did I miss this thread?

Excellent work, Scott! I love the Unity/Synergy type speakers and have wanted to own or build my own pair for nearly a decade now. Come to think of it, they are the speakers that got me into high sensitivity/pro gear and also what is now AE Speakers (Lambda).

Will be watching. smile.gif
post #58 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Looking at it's FR, I'm not sure I'd want to listen to that in a home environment. http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/SM-60F-spec-sheet1.pdf

I am not too sure exactly what you see in that response that would lead you to believe you wouldnt like it? That is my main question
post #59 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post


confused.gif

I don't understand.

I am not sure if you are referring to my post. Like Beast, I own a set of SM60Fs and find that the quality of sound from them surpasses that of my other speakers. I suppose one of these days, I will pull out my DEQX and try smoothing out the response to see if additional benefits will be gained. Being that it is a point source should mitigate some of the concerns of DSP i.e., optimized for one location.

Mike
post #60 of 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Danley SH series (specifically the SH69) was on my short list when buying new mains a couple years ago, I too was concerned wrt the measured FR. As it turned out, I pursued a different direction. But I have heard the wonderful magic act that is capable with Synergy approach.

Would the somewhat ragged FR matter? I don't know, but the inherent superior characteristics of the design (controlled directivity coherent point source) remain.

I trust Beast's take on it, I'm guessing it's everything it's said to be.

I can't speak for the SM60F but I own SH50s and they are everything people say, far superior to the JTR T12s I also own. The native response of the SH50 is not an issue, the reflections are the issue and the design helps in minimizing this which is extremely important. IME it is the reflections one needs to be concerned with in the mid/HF rather than the raw response which is far easier to tame if required as long as it is not extremely bad out of the box. Further I think that having the L/R speakers time aligned greatly helps, typically one or the other needs a very small bit of delay. You should take a look at the SH96HO in Biamp mode if your looking for good FR in a synergy horn.
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