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How Inky are the blacks on the Panasonic VT60 line?

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
I used to have a Kuro 5020FD until it broke during a move. The blacks on that thing were so inky when a scene had a large amount of black it was like looking into a blackhole.

I see mentions of the VT60's black levels, usually in reference to its gradiation, but I have yet to see anything definitive enough about how the blacks actually look.

I was thinking about getting a 65VT60, upgrading from a Sony 55" HX929, before the Panasonic's can't be found anymore.
post #2 of 33
0.001 vs 0.0012.

Real world viewing is probably not as drastic though.


I know what you mean about the black hole effect. I love it when that happens.

How did your kuro break exactly?
post #3 of 33
Thread Starter 
Glass broke during the move. You couldn't see it without shining a flashlight on it. It was spiderweb shaped which is weird, because that would usually mean there was an impact. I was very sad when that happened. I still have the broken unit lol.
post #4 of 33
There are plenty of us who have gone from a 9th Gen Kuro to a VT or ZT and found them to be equal if not better. Plenty of discussion plus a thread dedicated to your very question. The additional screen is nice as well. Sorry about your screen - I own the same display.
post #5 of 33
Thread Starter 
Any other thoughts on this?
post #6 of 33
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65vt60-3d-plasma-hdtv

What else are you looking for? All the reviews for the ZT/VT this year show them with slightly better black levels then the display you cracked. A DNice modified 500m/600m is still the best, but this topic has been discussed to death if you spend some time reading the ZT/VT threads. Finally, most would not notice the differences without the displays side-by-side.
post #7 of 33
Actually a 500M/101 is still the best even without D-Nice's calibration. It's crazy how no plasma has topped it. And now there's no more plasma. frown.gif


Trojita, if your worrying about the black level of the VT not being as good as your 5020 i don't think you have anything to worry about. cnets review of the VT mentioned it looking a bit darker on some scenes even though the 111FD measured lower. It depends i guess.

Buy it. It'll definitely do better than your 929 that's for sure.
post #8 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/panasonic-tc-p65vt60-3d-plasma-hdtv

What else are you looking for? All the reviews for the ZT/VT this year show them with slightly better black levels then the display you cracked. A DNice modified 500m/600m is still the best, but this topic has been discussed to death if you spend some time reading the ZT/VT threads. Finally, most would not notice the differences without the displays side-by-side.

Sorry :S. All I saw was the VT60 official thread which I didn't see much talking about it. Thanks for the link though. That assuages some of my worry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Actually a 500M/101 is still the best even without D-Nice's calibration. It's crazy how no plasma has topped it. And now there's no more plasma. frown.gif


Trojita, if your worrying about the black level of the VT not being as good as your 5020 i don't think you have anything to worry about. cnets review of the VT mentioned it looking a bit darker on some scenes even though the 111FD measured lower. It depends i guess.

Buy it. It'll definitely do better than your 929 that's for sure.

Cool. Will the VT60 be better because it is a plasma? Or will it all around be a better display in processing, motion, etc? I know there isn't a good way to compare the two. The Sony was the top of the line LED Backlit LCD TV. Is 2 years and plasma going to make that big of a difference? If so that is great.

I ordered the TV and should get it next week.

Is viewing the VT60 in a day time room really that bad? I don't think my room even gets bright, so I guess I should be fine anyway.
post #9 of 33
I think the VT60 blacks are very good, but they are not as dark as I remember compared to my previous CRT RPTV which hands down had the best blacks I've ever seen although I never saw a Kuro. I mean low APL scenes stayed black on that thing which is always a black torture test especially with letterbox bars. The VT60 blacks are notably better than the ST30 I had and they destroy the SXRD I once had. On mid APL and higher scenes, the blacks can look striking on the VT60.
post #10 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Actually a 500M/101 is still the best even without D-Nice's calibration. It's crazy how no plasma has topped it. And now there's no more plasma. frown.gif


since we're nitpicking... let's remember what 'the best' means. the 500m/101 is BETTER than the vt60 without dnice calibration, but the 500m with dnice calibration is the BEST.

so he was still right tongue.gif you just added more info that didn't really apply to the 5020fd vs vt60 comparison
post #11 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I think the VT60 blacks are very good, but they are not as dark as I remember compared to my previous CRT RPTV which hands down had the best blacks I've ever seen although I never saw a Kuro. I mean low APL scenes stayed black on that thing which is always a black torture test especially with letterbox bars. The VT60 blacks are notably better than the ST30 I had and they destroy the SXRD I once had. On mid APL and higher scenes, the blacks can look striking on the VT60.

totally agree. plasma's might do a great job with ansi contrast and remaining dark black with mixed content, but I've never wondered if a plasma was on or not like I did with a good CRT. maybe oled will return us to the days of watch a tv in complete darkness again.
post #12 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

totally agree. plasma's might do a great job with ansi contrast and remaining dark black with mixed content, but I've never wondered if a plasma was on or not like I did with a good CRT. maybe oled will return us to the days of watch a tv in complete darkness again.

Now, I don't want to mislead anyone or imply anything from my comment: I think the VT60 image is vastly superior to that CRT RPTV. The increase in detail and resolution is worlds above the CRT RPTV I had and the color is superior, as well. I also think ansi-contrast is very important and maybe more so than pure black --- and the ansi contrast on the VT60 destroys the CRT RPTV. But, it we are talking just pure blacks, then, yes, CRT RPTV is superior.
post #13 of 33
I went from Kuro 5020 to a 65VT60 and black level seems just as good. Contrast seem better actually to me since my VT60 seems to be brighter to me.
post #14 of 33
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_DML View Post

I went from Kuro 5020 to a 65VT60 and black level seems just as good. Contrast seem better actually to me since my VT60 seems to be brighter to me.

I thought I read somewhere that the Panasonics couldn't go as bright as the Kuros because of energy restrictions? Or was that just the elites and monitors?
post #15 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojita View Post

I thought I read somewhere that the Panasonics couldn't go as bright as the Kuros because of energy restrictions? Or was that just the elites and monitors?

first off just my personal opinion about the brightness but I think your second comment is true. Pretty sure the 5020 can get as bright if you do the elite board modification to unlock ISF modes but I have not done that.
post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Now, I don't want to mislead anyone or imply anything from my comment: I think the VT60 image is vastly superior to that CRT RPTV. The increase in detail and resolution is worlds above the CRT RPTV I had and the color is superior, as well. I also think ansi-contrast is very important and maybe more so than pure black --- and the ansi contrast on the VT60 destroys the CRT RPTV. But, it we are talking just pure blacks, then, yes, CRT RPTV is superior.

yes, crt has better blacks, as in dark scenes have blacker blacks in them. i'll leave the 'overall best picture' alone, don't want to derail the thread tongue.gif
post #17 of 33
Similar circumstances: My 50" Elite Kuro PRO-110FD has been glitching for a few months, presumably due to a bad main board. So today I replaced it with a 60" VT.

I'd say it's inkier.

I haven't even dialed in the settings yet (other than turning all the "image enhancing" features off) and I already like it better. This is a pretty subjective thread, so I won't pretend to be scientific about this. But I'm all about great blacks in a dark room, and the VT seems like an overall brighter picture with deeper blacks and richer colors. I was very worried about leaving my Kuro behind, but a half hour with the VT put all worries to rest.

Keep in mind, my Kuro was 8th generation, while the 9th generation (like yours) was slightly inkier.

The change from 50" to 60" was shocking. It's great in a dark room, but with the lights on the thing just seems laughably large, like someone erected a billboard in our bedroom. No regrets though, the image is worth it.

If anyone's looking for an Elite Kuro with a mild circuit board problem, PM me! Big sale!!!
post #18 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojita View Post

Cool. Will the VT60 be better because it is a plasma? Or will it all around be a better display in processing, motion, etc? I know there isn't a good way to compare the two. The Sony was the top of the line LED Backlit LCD TV. Is 2 years and plasma going to make that big of a difference? If so that is great.

I ordered the TV and should get it next week.

Is viewing the VT60 in a day time room really that bad? I don't think my room even gets bright, so I guess I should be fine anyway.

Better because it's a plasma yes which means it's superior at everything you just mentioned and more. The 929 is a great LCD but nothing beats a plasma imo. I don't know why i'm telling you this, you had a kuro. tongue.gif

I've never seen a VT60 in a bright room but if your room has a lot of light maby you should think of getting the ZT60? I'm sure the VT will be fine though.
post #19 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkRail View Post

Similar circumstances: My 50" Elite Kuro PRO-110FD has been glitching for a few months, presumably due to a bad main board. So today I replaced it with a 60" VT.

I'd say it's inkier.

I haven't even dialed in the settings yet (other than turning all the "image enhancing" features off) and I already like it better. This is a pretty subjective thread, so I won't pretend to be scientific about this. But I'm all about great blacks in a dark room, and the VT seems like an overall brighter picture with deeper blacks and richer colors. I was very worried about leaving my Kuro behind, but a half hour with the VT put all worries to rest.

Keep in mind, my Kuro was 8th generation, while the 9th generation (like yours) was slightly inkier.

The change from 50" to 60" was shocking. It's great in a dark room, but with the lights on the thing just seems laughably large, like someone erected a billboard in our bedroom. No regrets though, the image is worth it

If anyone's looking for an Elite Kuro with a mild circuit board problem, PM me! Big sale!!!

Don't worry, it's going to shrink in a few months. Then you're going to wish you actually did have a billboard sized TV in your room.
post #20 of 33

If you want pure black one way is dynamic mode (shoot me) :p

post #21 of 33

New member first post.  Not sure this is the best thread to post this question.  I purchased a VT60.  Have about 170 hours of mostly D-Nice slides on it.  I had a UT50 before this which I picked up earlier in the year and is considered an entry level set.  The blacks on the VT60 are better, shockingly so with a bit of light in the room.  During the day running slides with low contrast the screen looks like it's off when the black slide comes on.  At night, without any light or any content on the screen I can still see a glow.  A grey glow.  It's not like a black hole like everyone talks about.  That grey glow of the VT60 isn't much less of a glow than the UT50.  It takes a fare amount of light on the screen in a purely dark room to make my eyes not see the glow.  This is when I view in either THX Theater, professional 1 with D-Nice calibration settings (looks very similar to THX, better color).  I've also tried calibrating with the AVS HD 709 disk for contrast and brightness.  Still get the glow.  Scenes from movies like Dark Night where most of the image is pretty dark, I see the black glow.  I mean, it's pretty low, but I can definitely see a difference between bezel black and the screens black.  Any ideas?  It's not shockingly better than my UT50 in a purely black room.  It's definitely better, but my UT50 was only $600 and was pretty good so I'm wondering if something isn't right.  

 

Also, when I watch the 2013 shootout on youtube, those screens when showing nothing on the screen in the dark room have zero glow.  Not sure if that's because the camcorder can't pick it up, but I'd think if my room was dark, a camcorder could pick up my VT60 glow.  

 

Link to shootout I'm referencing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJ-VEueE8k

post #22 of 33
Answer to the question "INKY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! biggrin.gif
post #23 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by janix View Post
 

New member first post.  Not sure this is the best thread to post this question.  I purchased a VT60.  Have about 170 hours of mostly D-Nice slides on it.  I had a UT50 before this which I picked up earlier in the year and is considered an entry level set.  The blacks on the VT60 are better, shockingly so with a bit of light in the room.  During the day running slides with low contrast the screen looks like it's off when the black slide comes on.  At night, without any light or any content on the screen I can still see a glow.  A grey glow.  It's not like a black hole like everyone talks about.  That grey glow of the VT60 isn't much less of a glow than the UT50.  It takes a fare amount of light on the screen in a purely dark room to make my eyes not see the glow.  This is when I view in either THX Theater, professional 1 with D-Nice calibration settings (looks very similar to THX, better color).  I've also tried calibrating with the AVS HD 709 disk for contrast and brightness.  Still get the glow.  Scenes from movies like Dark Night where most of the image is pretty dark, I see the black glow.  I mean, it's pretty low, but I can definitely see a difference between bezel black and the screens black.  Any ideas?  It's not shockingly better than my UT50 in a purely black room.  It's definitely better, but my UT50 was only $600 and was pretty good so I'm wondering if something isn't right.  

 

Also, when I watch the 2013 shootout on youtube, those screens when showing nothing on the screen in the dark room have zero glow.  Not sure if that's because the camcorder can't pick it up, but I'd think if my room was dark, a camcorder could pick up my VT60 glow.  

 

Link to shootout I'm referencing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvJ-VEueE8k

 

So glad I read your post as I thought it was just my set since I keep reading about how great the black levels are supposed to be.  My 55" vt60 has about 260 hours on it and I am using the Sound and Vision settings, the build date is from October. In black scenes with not much light(eg. credits/titles, volcano scene Samsara) I am looking at a sea of grey that isn't even remotely close to black(video sources Cisco HD cable box via HDMI and HD video files via USB drive). I can even see panel illumination pretty easily in the day. I can also see what I think is phosphor lag. Every time light text is on a dark background I see a momentary flash of red and green. It's almost like the rainbow effect on early DLPs although it's not nearly as bad and I really don't notice it much in regular video. White objects on dark backgrounds also seem to have a noticeable 1-2 pixel fringe around them that's shaded cyan on left side of the object and green on right side of the object. Since it's only a pixel or two wide I am astonished I notice it at my sitting distance of 7 feet but I do. On top of that I live in hockey country and the ABL on this set pretty much makes it unwatchable for me. I read all the reviews and none of them mentioned it. I've watched hockey on my mother's g25 and my friend's Kuro before without any issues so I wasn't even aware at the time of purchase that this was something I should be on the lookout for. I am really disheartened. Any advice anybody can give to improve black performance or minimize ABL kicking in would be greatly appreciated.

post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by janix View Post

New member first post.  Not sure this is the best thread to post this question.  I purchased a VT60.  Have about 170 hours of mostly D-Nice slides on it.  I had a UT50 before this which I picked up earlier in the year and is considered an entry level set.  The blacks on the VT60 are better, shockingly so with a bit of light in the room.  During the day running slides with low contrast the screen looks like it's off when the black slide comes on.  At night, without any light or any content on the screen I can still see a glow.  A grey glow.  It's not like a black hole like everyone talks about.  That grey glow of the VT60 isn't much less of a glow than the UT50.  It takes a fare amount of light on the screen in a purely dark room to make my eyes not see the glow.  This is when I view in either THX Theater, professional 1 with D-Nice calibration settings (looks very similar to THX, better color).  I've also tried calibrating with the AVS HD 709 disk for contrast and brightness.  Still get the glow.  Scenes from movies like Dark Night where most of the image is pretty dark, I see the black glow.  I mean, it's pretty low, but I can definitely see a difference between bezel black and the screens black.  Any ideas?  It's not shockingly better than my UT50 in a purely black room.  It's definitely better, but my UT50 was only $600 and was pretty good so I'm wondering if something isn't right.

Try lowering the brightness (i.e. black level) setting a few ticks.
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Try lowering the brightness (i.e. black level) setting a few ticks.
This.

Sounds like the brightness is too high and you are seeing dithering.
post #26 of 33

After a bunch of research I think I've figured out the issues that I’m seeing with black levels. I took Rwetmore’s advice to lower the brightness level even though it would throw the calibration totally off. I lowered everything to see how black it would go. It goes a little more black, but not much. I still see panel illumination. I don’t think anything is wrong with my VT60 though and here is why. Everything I read about the VT60 talked about how black it would go. Nothing talked about panel illumination in a dark room. I realized that the VT60 black levels are considered on par with the Kuro so I decided to look into glow on the Kuro. What I discovered is that the Kuro still glows. Your eyes are extremely sensitive to light and will see anything that isn’t perfect black. From what I understand only the 10g Kuro that was never released achieved this. Of course OLEDs can produce perfect blacks too or at least my phone can. So here’s what I’ve done. I have a couple fake candles that flicker on my fireplace mantel. I turn those on which gives a very slight level of ambient light. When I do that, blacks are perfect. I mean, stunningly perfect. My panny UT50 could produce very good blacks but I’d need more light in the room and then the blacks would wash out. My conclusion is that everything is fine. I went to see the Hobbit in IMAX 3d and you know what, the black level wasn’t perfect. The screen glowed on totally black scenes. So I think the VT60 is achieving about as perfect a cinema experience as you can get. I wanted to add to this that I think I’ve been spoiled by excellent televisions changing my perception of what ideal is. The UT50 plasma I had (2012 model) was very good. Before that I had a full array local dimming LED/LCD Samsung a950 which on a total black screen shows nothing but perfect black. Mind you, you get blooming, bad viewing angles, and that LCD washout. But I was used to very good blacks to begin with. If anyone thinks my black levels are still not ideal let me know, thanks.

post #27 of 33
How many hours do you have on your set? The blacks drop a little bit around 300 hours. The VT has excellent blacks, but you will still see a luminated display in a dark room.
post #28 of 33
There is only one setting for the brightness control and you do it visually. Download the free AVSHD disk.
post #29 of 33

Dang, I wrote a long reply but it got lost.  I turned the brightness down, contrast down too considering it affects brightness, and adjusted panel brightness settings from high, mid, and low.

post #30 of 33

I forgot to mention that I posted that I did use the AVSHD disk.  I've got brightness at reference levels for both day and night in prof1 and prof2 settings.

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