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VPL-VW1000ES and HTPC at 4k (native rez) - Page 3

post #61 of 151
Zombie and I joke a lot. But I would like to have a 4K server and something to which I can burn discs I own to for quick and easy access. I intend on using a Lumagen to process everything. I just want a device to playback 4K downloaded from the internet etc and other stuff ripped by me etc. I suspect if I seriously black mail Zombie he will build me one like his for a fee obviously and show me how to use it. I have done things for him in the past including expressing my ever lasting love for his HP 2.8 screen and his white viewing room before he joined the dark side at my urging. I am currently working with Da-lite trying to convince them to bring out a HP 3.8. I have promised them 10,000 sales just to AV Science HP fan boys alone.
post #62 of 151
Intel Haswell i5 NUC has teh new HD5000 graphics and can output 4k, they even have a i7 version coming out.
post #63 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am currently working with Da-lite trying to convince them to bring out a HP 3.8. I have promised them 10,000 sales just to AV Science HP fan boys alone.

Haha... tongue.gif

But on a more serious note: The one and only reason people are using/loving their HPs is because current projector technology lacks (constant) brightness, obviously. You're complaining about the symptom, not the cause. So if you want to change the world for the better, instead of complaining about the HP, complain to projector manufacturers and make them finally switch to high brightness laser illumination. We're all waiting for that. Once projectors are plenty bright (and constant at that), many HP owners will likely switch to a lower gain screen. Except for those who want to put on their sunglasses and get a tan, obviously.

The HP does come with its share of disadvantages. But you know, louder sounds better, brighter looks better. So with a dim projector, the added brightness is much more important than the problems the HP might introduce.
post #64 of 151
I am not complaining about the HP to Da-lite. It is what it is. Yes the problem is the Johnson, whoops large screen, syndrome . Everybody wants a bigger one than the next guy and they want to keep their underwear, whoops, projector costs low. Brighter blinds them to the negative attributes of the HP. But so what? Brightness to them trumps all with their small output lumens projectors. And that is OK. As long as they are happy.

I am obviously a video perfectionist but what if I weren't. My Sony scaling would ring and I would lose some detain on transitions. But so what? I would still enjoy the game and it would present pretty much the sme ditto. Ditto for color errors and screen texture ala HP. So what. Still would enjoy watching but I know what I would be missing realism wise. But I could do it and still enjoy.
post #65 of 151
Most HP users that post here have projectors with high lumen outputs.
post #66 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by space2001 View Post

Intel Haswell i5 NUC has teh new HD5000 graphics and can output 4k, they even have a i7 version coming out.

Yep... but most of the talk here is about upscaling to 4k using madVR at really high settings (Jinc, etc) .. so that requires some GPU horsepower.
post #67 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Most HP users that post here have projectors with high lumen outputs.

To keep things in context, I am talking projectors that have calibrated lumens say in the 1300 lumens class and below. That would cover say even a 2000 lumens rated projector like the Sony 1000ES which when new and calibrated might put out around 1400 Lumens. That is not a high lumens projector. The Sim2 Super Lumis projector puts out 3800 lumens HC and 500o lumens HB, Even after calibration we are talking high lumens and not our peanut whistle projectors. and if you have enough brightness, there is no reason to live with the negatives of the HP. And frankly if they don't see the negatives that is simply a comment on their viewing ability. The thing color shifts which can be corrected for basically only one viewing position and it has texture which prevents it from disappearing. Plus if you want the full gain it probably has to be mounted somewhat awkwardly.
post #68 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

I am not complaining about the HP to Da-lite. It is what it is. Yes the problem is the Johnson, whoops large screen, syndrome . Everybody wants a bigger one than the next guy and they want to keep their underwear, whoops, projector costs low. Brighter blinds them to the negative attributes of the HP. But so what? Brightness to them trumps all with their small output lumens projectors. And that is OK. As long as they are happy.

I don't think "bigger than the next guy" is important. I think most of us would simply like to go as big as the room allows. I know that I do. If I could get a projector with twice as much brightness for a reasonable price increase (let's say 30%), I would go for that. But real high lumens machines (with at least the same image quality as less bright projectors) are *crazy* expensive. Most people can't afford that. So the only viable option is either HP, or go with a much smaller screen. At least for now. I still hope that laser illumination will solve that problem for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

And frankly if they don't see the negatives that is simply a comment on their viewing ability. The thing color shifts which can be corrected for basically only one viewing position and it has texture which prevents it from disappearing.

One thing I've learned is that every person has different sensivities to different things. Some people see DLP rainbows, others don't. Some people absolutely hate ringing artifacts, others don't. Some people like the soap opera effect, others don't. Some people like grain, others hate it. For some people contrast is king, others favor sharpness over contrast. Some people are sensitive to banding artifacts, others aren't. Some people are sensitive to motion stutter (e.g. 3:2 pulldown), others aren't. Some people are sensitive to color shifts, others aren't. You can't judge the viewing ability of a person by just one factor. Some people may not notice color shifts, but see every other image quality deficit from a mile.

Anyway, I guess we're OT, so I'll drop it now.
post #69 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Zombie I am now thinking about this case (the elite 130 version with the perforated front), since it weighs half as much as the XB and is half as wide and tall. Then venturing into water cooling with this cooler, since a big air cooler won't fit that case. The big graphics cards still fit. I would get the Asus Maximus VI Impact MB for that case.

I would have to find a quality PSU that is completely modular. Do you or Seegs have a recommended model? Any experience with entry level "already put together" water cooling rigs like the one mentioned? Just looking for simple and effective.

The cooler master looks like a nice, compact case that can hold a decent size cooler.

these are great power supplies, I've used these on a few builds.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139011

The last time i water cooled was years ago when everything was modular, roll your own. these kits today from Corsair, coolermaster, etc make it look too easy... smile.gif
post #70 of 151
Alt these choices make choosing a projector and screen seem simplistic and yet you guys continually get that wrong screen wise. Yuk. Yuk. smile.gif
post #71 of 151
That's definitely true Mark. They key is knowing what is compatible. Though the DIY computer market has it simplified enough to where everything has been standardized. All you really need to know are things like ATX, Micro-ATX, and Mini-ITX for sizes, CPU sockets for CPU/Motherboard compatibility and about PCI ports. An hours worth of reading and you'll be a pro like us. smile.gif

If Zombie (Jason) has us over to see the Sony's side by side, I'll give you a rundown and show you how cool an HTPC system can look and perform. I think you'll be wow'ed. smile.gif
post #72 of 151
I've been there and I have seen his computers etc. It was just like the time long ago for me when they told me I couldn't go on the highway anymore with my horse and buggy and they showed me this gasoline engine inside this Model T or whatever to replace my horse and carriage.
post #73 of 151
He may do things a little differently to how I have my PC setup. I use a program called XBMC, which looks and performs like a Kaleidescape media server, but has a few distinct advantages over a Kaleidescape system and they keep adding more functionality to the program on an almost weekly basis. If you've got a ton of blu-rays loaded on your computer (I now have over 1000+), it's such a good way to keep things organized and looks impressive to those not accustomed to such software.
post #74 of 151
He has something like that too. Its neat how he can call anything up almost instantly and access any time point on a disc instantly.
Edited by mark haflich - 11/23/13 at 5:56am
post #75 of 151
I find it actually charming, having to put a bluray in the machine - I must eventually be an old fart. biggrin.gif

And may actually give Mark H. (UK) right (IMO ofcause) that it is still difficult and requires much too much PC knowledge (I have not, unfortunately), or a huge time investment to get enough knowledge about them, to avoid all these small details mistakes that just makes you get giant computer / functional problems.

not that I disagree that they are very smart and wish that I had a such a self and they are a good way to pull the ultimate picture quality out of our 1000ES on, so far ....


dj
post #76 of 151
I selected my HTPC case for it's looks when placed with A/V stack. About the only thing that I don't like about it are the drive bays. The really are a pain when installing SSD since they're designed for hot swap which is overkill for an HTPC. I'm not interested in loading drives with different OS builds and such.

Those Cooler Masters look ice too for over-clockers, etc. Maybe I use it in my next build if/when I move my current HTPC to another room with 2K display. Sure hope they come out with 4K HDMI 2.0 cards sooner rather than later. That's what just may cause me to build a new gaming / HTPC machine to go with the Sony.
post #77 of 151
My VW1000 is driven by a Club3D HD7950 card. I configured my ATI control panel to output 3840x2160@23 and madVR upscales my 2K content to 4K with the JINC3+AR algorithm. This does an outstanding job.

The problem however is that I get 'faults' in the content from time to time. Sometimes it is during scene changes or sometimes during scene panning. It is pretty hard to describe the actual problem but think about a video cable you are moving in a connector. The picture just 'distorts' for some seconds. You see 'bright green/blue distortion lines'. The problem goes away when setting ATI to output 1080p. The problem is also not madVR related because it is also there when using EVR. So there is something wrong but I have no clue what. Someone has ANY idea?
post #78 of 151
As we know the VW1000s Frame Interpolation mode is disabled when feeding the VW1000 with native 4K. At this moment I m trying to decide if I prefer the better upscaling of madVR (IF I can get rid of the problem described in my previous post) or if I can live with Sony's upscaling but have Sony's FI (low mode) available to use (which I also REALLY like).
post #79 of 151
Maybe the 7950 is right at its limit for up scaling using those algorithms. I remember seeing some kind of chart that has what video card can handle what. I just remember that my 7970 is at the threshold of being able to upscale 4K using those algorithms.
post #80 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

My VW1000 is driven by a Club3D HD7950 card. I configured my ATI control panel to output 3840x2160@23 and madVR upscales my 2K content to 4K with the JINC3+AR algorithm. This does an outstanding job.

The problem however is that I get 'faults' in the content from time to time. Sometimes it is during scene changes or sometimes during scene panning. It is pretty hard to describe the actual problem but think about a video cable you are moving in a connector. The picture just 'distorts' for some seconds. You see 'bright green/blue distortion lines'. The problem goes away when setting ATI to output 1080p. The problem is also not madVR related because it is also there when using EVR. So there is something wrong but I have no clue what. Someone has ANY idea?

Maybe instead of it being the horsepower required to do the scaling at that resolution, its the frequencies being output being at the maximum the card supports that is running it to its limit and causing blips or errors periodically. I haven't connected my 7950 based PC to my Sony yet (I did a year or so ago but then got away from HTPC.. im going back now). I will see if I catch some of the same stuff.

Zombie can tell us if the 780 Ti card he got exhibits any of this behavior. Perhaps that newer card has a more advanced "pipeline" that doesn't "hit the wall" at 4k frequencies.
post #81 of 151
Maybe the HDMI cable is at its limit with the 4K signal. Try a better quality cable.
post #82 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

Maybe the HDMI cable is at its limit with the 4K signal. Try a better quality cable.
Madshi, you out of all should know that there are only 2 differences in HDMI cables: normal or high-speed. I m using the high speed cable so that cannot be the problem.
post #83 of 151
You make that a bit too simple. It's not like HDMI cable manufacturers just pick either "material A" or "material B" to achieve those 2 speed classifications. There are different materials, different shieldings, different connector qualities. Furthermore the quality degrades, the longer the cable is, and the more interference there might be through nearby power cables etc. Some years ago when HDMI started I already had trouble getting 1080p60 to work reliably. It worked with some cables and didn't work properly with others. 4K is tough on cables, so if you have a cable which isn't good quality, that might cause problems, even if it's "rated" high-speed.

Of course the cable is only one potential cause of the problem. Another cause could be a slack joint in either the GPU or the projector, or maybe the GPU's HDMI output chip has trouble sending out such a high frequency signal for a longer time. It's all possible. Swapping the cable is the easiest thing to do, so that's what I suggested first.
Edited by madshi - 11/22/13 at 7:57am
post #84 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Maybe instead of it being the horsepower required to do the scaling at that resolution, its the frequencies being output being at the maximum the card supports that is running it to its limit and causing blips or errors periodically. I haven't connected my 7950 based PC to my Sony yet (I did a year or so ago but then got away from HTPC.. im going back now). I will see if I catch some of the same stuff.

Zombie can tell us if the 780 Ti card he got exhibits any of this behavior. Perhaps that newer card has a more advanced "pipeline" that doesn't "hit the wall" at 4k frequencies.

I haven't seen any issues with the 780 Ti, it seems to handle anything I can throw at it. The host is pretty beefy with the 3770 + 32 GB ram / SSD.

time to check out some games in UHD this weekend. I can deal with 30FPS just to see some eye candy.
post #85 of 151
Mark, if you've gotten by this long without an HTPC, I'd wait and see what types of Steam Boxes come out that have innovative cooling tech. Maybe there will be something groundbreaking vs DIY, maybe there won't be. And it is confirmed you can run Windows on Steam Box hardware.

What's kind of nice is the new Steam Box hardware should approximately coincide with HDMI 2.0 video cards, so it might be good timing to wait.
post #86 of 151
Turls. I have absolutely no idea what a Steam Box is, let alone what a new coming Steam Box might do. I intend to use my Lumsagen 2041 until their 4K input one becomes available and then to trade in my 2041 for that..

I would like to burn content I own onto an instant access storage device and do that cheaply and easily. It would be nice if I coud download 4K content and store that as well.
post #87 of 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by cischico View Post

Maybe the 7950 is right at its limit for up scaling using those algorithms. I remember seeing some kind of chart that has what video card can handle what. I just remember that my 7970 is at the threshold of being able to upscale 4K using those algorithms.

You might be able to turn down the chroma scaling to a much cheaper algorithm (bicubic?) and still get the same results since the Sony can only process 4:2:2 input anyway.
post #88 of 151

know it,I may have overestimated its spec I'm thinking. I have a new one incoming that I'm going to give a shot and see if my hunch is right but so far neither PC gives me an option to chose anything above 1080p.good bye

paXMwh

post #89 of 151
Re FI or motion flow. It is diabled with a UHD or 4K input. But on te 500/600 ES motion flow still works I think at UHD or 4K. Of course, I could be wrong. So maybe with the upgrade of the 1000 to 1100ES, it will work.
Edited by mark haflich - 11/23/13 at 9:39am
post #90 of 151
Hey Zombie or Seegs... a while back there was an issue or bug with video level / PC level output in ATI or Nvidia drivers, or both... does that exist now, or was it fixed?
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