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Subwoofer/Audyssey problems

post #1 of 59
Thread Starter 
Recently as I've started to try Audyssey again after just using "pure mode" in my receiver and using my Oppo's DACs, I heard some bottoming out from subwoofer.
I turn off Audyssey = no bottoming out.
With Audyssey = Bottoming out at - 15db on my Marantz and -5db on subwoofer eq at around 50% gain on the actual subwoofer.
So I've done the 6 point Audyssey measurement 4 times now, at slightly different locations just to make sure.
I am using the mic that came with my Marantz SR6007 on a tripod, and each time it doesn't sound better..
I should mention, the speakers sound GREAT with Audyssey, and I love how smooth and easy on my ears the sound is, but the bass is so terrible, I nearly wanna turn off Audyssey.
What Audyssey does for my speakers, no Audyssey does for my sub. That's how drastic it is.

Any thing I'm doing wrong or can do to resolve this?
Such as use Audyssey and somehow not let it affect my sub?

Thank you!
post #2 of 59
You could disconnect the sub and run Audyssey. After that reconnect the sub and enable the sub in the receiver.
What sub do you have? I think audyssey boost the low end a bit much which could be why you're sub is bottoming out.
post #3 of 59
^^ good advise but don't forget to measure and set sub distance.
post #4 of 59
Make sure dynamic eq is off.

As for setting the subwoofer distance, unless you have measurement gear to invalidate the audyssey setting leave it as is. The physical measured distance is rarely correct.
post #5 of 59
Thread Starter 
Good thinking! I'll disconnect it!
And my subwoofer is a
BIC Acoustech PL-200.

And it still does it without Dynamic EQ, but how would that make a difference? Does that boost LFE even more?

Another thing I find peculiar, is it actually sets my sub to -12db with Audyssey. But I can't even hear it at the volume hardly.
post #6 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Good thinking! I'll disconnect it!
And my subwoofer is a
BIC Acoustech PL-200.

And it still does it without Dynamic EQ, but how would that make a difference? Does that boost LFE even more?

Another thing I find peculiar, is it actually sets my sub to -12db with Audyssey. But I can't even hear it at the volume hardly.

Your gain is to high on your sub and is at the bottom of the Marantz sub volume scale try lowering the gain on the sub to 9 o'clock position to see if you get a different result.
post #7 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Good thinking! I'll disconnect it!
And my subwoofer is a
BIC Acoustech PL-200.

And it still does it without Dynamic EQ, but how would that make a difference? Does that boost LFE even more?

Another thing I find peculiar, is it actually sets my sub to -12db with Audyssey. But I can't even hear it at the volume hardly.

Yes that is what dynamic eq does, it compensates for you listening at less than reference volume by boosting bass among other things. So sometimes it may overdrive your sub.

Agree with other poster, you need to reduce volume knob on sub and rerun audyssey.
post #8 of 59
Thread Starter 
Tried it with the sub off. And after Audyssey was finished, I had turn the sub option on for my receiver, and Audyssey wasn't even working. It only gave me the option for graphic EQ.
Then I tried it with the gain on about 25%/9 o'clock, and it still turned the bass -2db on my Marantz. Bass was practically not present, made my speakers sound really bright as there was little bottom end.
I think adjusted the gain to more, and it started bottoming out, so I lowered the gain, and then raised it on my receiver, still bottoming out.
Any suggestions?
I'm confused because without Audyssey I can turn my sub to 60/70% gain and it still doesn't bottom out, and it's really impactful, but with Audyssey, as soon as turn it to a volume where I can actually hear the bass it distorts.
post #9 of 59
Quote:
Tried it with the sub off. And after Audyssey was finished, I had turn the sub option on for my receiver, and Audyssey wasn't even working. It only gave me the option for graphic EQ.
Then I tried it with the gain on about 25%/9 o'clock, and it still turned the bass -2db on my Marantz. Bass was practically not present, made my speakers sound really bright as there was little bottom end.
I think adjusted the gain to more, and it started bottoming out, so I lowered the gain, and then raised it on my receiver, still bottoming out.
Any suggestions?
I'm confused because without Audyssey I can turn my sub to 60/70% gain and it still doesn't bottom out, and it's really impactful, but with Audyssey, as soon as turn it to a volume where I can actually hear the bass it distorts.

Marantz is owned by Denon and I think implementation of Audyssey should be same on both. That trick won't work on either brand. I could switch off my sub and run audyssey on Onkyo 809 and would later switch it back on and enable it in AVR. That way I could use Asudyssey curve on the speakers and set up subwoofer using my own filters in BFD.

In Denon/Marantz, if the sub is switched off or disabled in avr and you switch it back on and enable in avr set up after auto cal; Audyssey treats it as new speaker added to the mix. So, it disables itself. So, you are pretty much stuck in this regard.

But having said that; you shouldn't be bottoming out sub like this. Just set your sub to around 78dB when audyssey routine starts. Your sub trim level should be around -5 or -6 after audyssey auto cal finishes. Just enable dynamicEQ and bump up the sub trim level 3-4dB. It should be fine.
post #10 of 59
Thread Starter 
^^ How do I know how loud exactly 78db is on my sub??

I also tried an Atlantic Technology 422SB, and I set the gain on "preset"(I'm assuming that's default), and the bass was so low, again, felt like it lacked any oomph. Audyssey had lowered it to -9db on my Marantz, and I moved it up even just to -3db, and still bottoming out, and a terrible mid bass distortion.
I've run Audyssey 5 times today.. 3 times with the BIC PL-200, and 2 times with the Atlantic Technology sub.
Again, with it off I have WAY more headroom, and the lower frequencies are INTENSE, clean, and warm welcomed!

Anyway, the net net is, when Audyssey is on without adjusting the bass, it's extremely weak, and when I increase it ever the slightest, it sounds rough. 'Course maybe it sounds bad all along and that I just can't hear it when it's so low. And then without Audyssey, it's like my sub turns into the incredible hulk(relatively speaking), and flat out commands and can actually over power my little room.

Is there any chance my mic or Marantz is defective? Or does Audyssey always set bass extremely low? (Not to mention distort when you raise it?)
post #11 of 59
Audyssey will calibrate the speakers and sub's to a certain decibel (75db?). It will also try and eq the freq to be as flat as possible. It could be that you don't like a flat frequency response and like the sub's to run hot.
post #12 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

^^ How do I know how loud exactly 78db is on my sub??

I also tried an Atlantic Technology 422SB, and I set the gain on "preset"(I'm assuming that's default), and the bass was so low, again, felt like it lacked any oomph. Audyssey had lowered it to -9db on my Marantz, and I moved it up even just to -3db, and still bottoming out, and a terrible mid bass distortion.
I've run Audyssey 5 times today.. 3 times with the BIC PL-200, and 2 times with the Atlantic Technology sub.
Again, with it off I have WAY more headroom, and the lower frequencies are INTENSE, clean, and warm welcomed!

Anyway, the net net is, when Audyssey is on without adjusting the bass, it's extremely weak, and when I increase it ever the slightest, it sounds rough. 'Course maybe it sounds bad all along and that I just can't hear it when it's so low. And then without Audyssey, it's like my sub turns into the incredible hulk(relatively speaking), and flat out commands and can actually over power my little room.

Is there any chance my mic or Marantz is defective? Or does Audyssey always set bass extremely low? (Not to mention distort when you raise it?)

Are you using a tripod or boom mic stand? Is Dynamic EQ on or off ?
post #13 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

^^ How do I know how loud exactly 78db is on my sub??

If your AVR doesn't play subwoofer test tone and prompt you to set your sub to 75dB when Audyssey starts; no problem. Just give a hard reset to the AVR. If you can't; again no problem. When you play internal test tones; the avr bypasses any internal auto eq programs (Audyssey) including dynamicEQ. If you are using BFD or other external eq device for sub; disable it.

Now bring the sub trim level in avr to 00, put the spl meter at your MLP, and play the sub test tone. Leave the sub trim level in avr to 00 and do not change it. Rather adjust the gain dial on the sub so your spl meter reads about 78dB.

Now run full Audyssey auto cal. It should set the sub trim level to -5 or -6. You can bump it up close to 00 in avr. Set all your speakers to small with 80Hz xo for a start, set subwoofer to LFE not LFE+Main, and it should work as desired.
post #14 of 59
Thread Starter 
I'm using a tripod. I've tried it with Dynamic EQ on and off, bass still distorts.

And my AVR prompts me to turn gain on sub to 50%, that is all. In which case, it puts my receiver on -12db for the sub.

What's a BFD and MLP?
Which SPL meter would you recommend?
post #15 of 59
^^again, first you need to lower your sub gain (volume) on your sub and then rerun Audessey to bring it out from -12db sub trim (-6db or so). Make sure there is no noise from AC/heating unit while performing Audessey measurement. I would turn everything off, leave the cat, dog outside for the duration of auto calibration.
MLP- main listening position or the mic position for your first Audessey measurement (most important position). Most folk use SPL meter from RadioShack.
Edited by Cowboys - 11/14/13 at 1:04pm
post #16 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

I'm using a tripod. I've tried it with Dynamic EQ on and off, bass still distorts.

And my AVR prompts me to turn gain on sub to 50%, that is all. In which case, it puts my receiver on -12db for the sub.

What's a BFD and MLP?
Which SPL meter would you recommend?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

I'm using a tripod. I've tried it with Dynamic EQ on and off, bass still distorts.

And my AVR prompts me to turn gain on sub to 50%, that is all. In which case, it puts my receiver on -12db for the sub.

What's a BFD and MLP?
Which SPL meter would you recommend?
Fifty percent, with an analog volume control, might mean half power (a mere three dB decrease from wide open) or half as lous (a mre 1/10 power. Adjust your sub's volume control until you get a result within the receiver's channel trim range. Do not think twice about where the control points. You are just making the 2 devices' gain structures play nice.
post #17 of 59
Quote:
And my AVR prompts me to turn gain on sub to 50%, that is all. In which case, it puts my receiver on -12db for the sub.

Forget about what your avr tells you. Keep it at 25% and rerun audyssey.
post #18 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

I'm using a tripod. I've tried it with Dynamic EQ on and off, bass still distorts.

And my AVR prompts me to turn gain on sub to 50%, that is all. In which case, it puts my receiver on -12db for the sub.

What's a BFD and MLP?
Which SPL meter would you recommend?

After the AVR prompts you to turn the gain up is there a skip or match the sub level option? It sounds like your bypassing this step altogether. When the Audyssey setup prompts you to level match the sub , it will play a test tone first to see if the sub level is within the 75-77db mark indicated in a green box during the level matching and red box if to high, but it should give you the option before proceeding to next step. If possible take a picture of this screen when its prompting the 50% so we can be sure.
post #19 of 59
Onkyo plays test tone at this point so you can set the gain on amp. I think his avr just prompts him to set the sub gain on 50% without playing the test tone, which is completely wrong. It does not factor in placement, room gain, varying gain structure between different sub amps. 50% on this very sub may be close to 82-83dB. No wonder why audyssey sets the trim at -12.
post #20 of 59
I recently moved and had a somewhat similar problem setting my system up. When I moved the crossover settings on the speakers to 80 or 100hz I no longer had a problem. There were major cancelations caused by the interactions of the speakers, room, and sub!

Might be worth a try to double check by moving your crossover points.
post #21 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by tulum View Post

I recently moved and had a somewhat similar problem setting my system up. When I moved the crossover settings on the speakers to 80 or 100hz I no longer had a problem. There were major cancelations caused by the interactions of the speakers, room, and sub!

Might be worth a try to double check by moving your crossover points.

This.

OP - have you done the sub crawl to find the best location for your sub?
post #22 of 59
Thread Starter 
Alright guys, currently my computer is down so it's taken some time for me to reply, as I'm currently using my phone.
I did however get a sound level meter from radioshack today, and at the "preset" level on the AT sub, I get around 78db. It goes up and down from as low as 74db to 83db, but in general, it hangs around 78db.
I'll send pictures to make sure I'm doing this correctly.
Btw, no my receiver does not play a test tone automatically to see if I'm at ~75-78db.


post #23 of 59
Thread Starter 
Oh, and when I measured earlier at the exact same gain on my sub, Audyssey made it -9.0db. Still distorted at around -3db I believe, and I was still only at -15db or so on the receiver.
post #24 of 59
Lower the gain on the sub till Audyssey sets the level close to 0db. I would play test tones at different frequencies 20->120hz and measure how loud each test tone is. From there you can get an idea of your freq response for the sub. My guess is that you're pushing the sub too hard which is why its distorting. Another test to run is to put the SPL meter right up close to the sub and measure at what db it starts to distort.
post #25 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Lower the gain on the sub till Audyssey sets the level close to 0db. I would play test tones at different frequencies 20->120hz and measure how loud each test tone is. From there you can get an idea of your freq response for the sub. My guess is that you're pushing the sub too hard which is why its distorting. Another test to run is to put the SPL meter right up close to the sub and measure at what db it starts to distort.

Alright, I'll try that.
How do I play different frequencies for test tones??

I am however, fairly confident that most of the distortion I hear is much higher than 20hz, and at 25hz, the BIC PL-200 should be able to output 96db, and at 30hz+ more than 100db. (At least for short term.)
And certainly at -10 to -15db volume on my marantz I shouldn't be anywhere near that??
post #26 of 59
http://www.avsforum.com/t/742969/diy-audio-test-dvd

A sub is required to play 115db at the main listening position when the volume is at referencere. It can be much higher if you're using bass management, i think its something like 121 or 126db... I forgot. At -15db the sub should be able to hit 100db AT YOUR SEAT. If you boost the sub trim after Audyssey has calibrated it then the requirements are much higher. Raise the sub trim by 6db then the sub needs to be able to hit 106db at your seat.
Edited by Mrkazador - 11/15/13 at 10:13pm
post #27 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Alright guys, currently my computer is down so it's taken some time for me to reply, as I'm currently using my phone.
I did however get a sound level meter from radioshack today, and at the "preset" level on the AT sub, I get around 78db. It goes up and down from as low as 74db to 83db, but in general, it hangs around 78db.
I'll send pictures to make sure I'm doing this correctly.
Btw, no my receiver does not play a test tone automatically to see if I'm at ~75-78db.



Are you by chance using the on screen display for your Audyssey calibration ?
post #28 of 59
Thread Starter 
Okay for example, let's say my Marantz is at -15db, that means, if the sub id up from -12db, after Audyssey, that I'll still be -3db, right?
And it's only 78db when I measured it at reference.
And how does bass management boost it by so much? I measured it, and it was within +/- 1db, with and without Audyssey, except, it distorted with Audyssey(Dynamic EQ off), and it did not distort with Audyssey off. At even -5db volume on my Marantz, and sub at 0db,
it only went as high as 105db.

And I was not using the on screen display the last few times because I have the Audyssey process memorized and I didn't want any burn in on my new tv.

Anyway, could my tripod be affecting low frequencies? This just seems bizarre to me!
post #29 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player3 View Post

Okay for example, let's say my Marantz is at -15db, that means, if the sub id up from -12db, after Audyssey, that I'll still be -3db, right?
And it's only 78db when I measured it at reference.
And how does bass management boost it by so much? I measured it, and it was within +/- 1db, with and without Audyssey, except, it distorted with Audyssey(Dynamic EQ off), and it did not distort with Audyssey off. At even -5db volume on my Marantz, and sub at 0db,
it only went as high as 105db.

And I was not using the on screen display the last few times because I have the Audyssey process memorized and I didn't want any burn in on my new tv.

Anyway, could my tripod be affecting low frequencies? This just seems bizarre to me!

That subwoofer level prompting screen is via on screen as I noticed your Marantz doesn't have the flip down panel and should be present turn on your display and post a few pics of the initial audyssey screens so we can be sure wink.gif
post #30 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

That subwoofer level prompting screen is via on screen as I noticed your Marantz doesn't have the flip down panel and should be present turn on your display and post a few pics of the initial audyssey screens so we can be sure wink.gif

Alright, had to plug in a computer monitor because my HDMI cord is too short to reach my new tv. biggrin.gif

Here they are:





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