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Help deciding on a Subwoofer - Page 3

post #61 of 142

As can be seen by a lot of these recent posts, most seem to agree that its absurd to bash the PSA XV15 and doing so has no merit. Yet it continues to happen. I have no problem with anyone having a slight biased towards one product or another, but at least be fair to the other quality products out there. I understand why basshead grows weary. When someone essentially tells you "Don't bother me with the facts my mind is already made up" it makes talking with them a chore.

post #62 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

Im just a bit tired of his false claims Steve. Go to data-bass.com and look up the THD of the subs we talked about. filter out the 2nd order and look at 3rd and 4th order. I have read in more places then data-bass that 2nd order harmonics are not obtrusive to the ear and some actually prefer them subjectively as Ricci points out.

In 2 port mode the VTF-15 has 17% 3rd order THD @ 18hz on the 110db sweep. In one port mode the VTF-15 has 16% 3 order THD @ 23hz on the 110db sweep.

Back to the LFM-1 EX which started all of this. In One port mode, the EX generates 23% 3rd order THD @ 26hz and 23% 4th order @ 16hz running a 110db sweep. In this mode only the 100db sweep is comparable to the XV15.

In 2 port mode the EX generates 25% 3rd order THD @ 22hz and 18% 4th order THD @ 18hz running a 110db sweep.

The XV15 has less then 10% 3rd @ 4th order THD from 18-200hz @ 110db.

I am not saying the XV15 is better then the VTF-15 or the FV15HP, but the distortion is not bad at all like Shady always claims.

Ok I am done now. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The same thing applies for all subs we mentioned. Were you not just saying to compare the THD of the VTF-15 and FV15HP at 110db sweeps? At 115db sweep both subs have worse 3rd order thd, but of course you couldnt handle that, so now we have to change how comparisons are made. Heaven forbid we compare the XV15's thd a few db from max output, but its ok for the other subs.

Where do you see component harmonic distortion charts for 110 dB sweeps for the VTF15h and FV15HP? They aren't there. They only exist for the XV15. Also notice how you are cherry picking the data here, first you have to ignore second order harmonic distortion, then you have to use the distortion peak of a particular mode of operation for sub X and sub Y to say your sub is an equivalent performer. That is missing the forest for the trees.

You also keep claiming second order harmonic distortion is benign because Ricci said so. You don't seem to understand why he said that, because if you did you wouldn't say that it doesn't matter in quite the same way he means. It is only considered less harmful in some respects. In music it can sound like part of the timbre of an instrument as it is a tone exactly one octave up from the fundamental. In this respect is still isn't good, but it might not be noticeable, because it is disguised as a natural part of the recording- but only to someone who doesn't know what the original recording sounds like. In movie sound effects, this doesn't hold. It is simply stuff that shouldn't be there, it is inaccurate playback, because explosions aren't musical, and if you aren't concerned with accuracy there then third, fourth, fifth, and higher order harmonic distortions are no more consequential than second order.

What's more Ricci is only referring to the second harmonic distortion itself, and not the intermodulation distortion that invariably accompanies it. IMD is much more glaring. Ricci doesn't test for IMD, but the more THD you have, the more IMD you have. It's best to keep all THD down as much as possible. In this respect SVS has an admirable philosophy.
post #63 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post


SVS has an admirable philosophy.

And who do you think helped start that admirable philosophy? Could it be two of the guys that were instrumental in helping start SVS and now have a company called PSA? rolleyes.gif

Yet you do nothing but bash their new company, go figure.

I certainly respect your knowledge on a lot of things but sometimes its rather hard to stomach constant assault of trying to prove why people should buy anything other then PSA products. Yet the guy that does the testing that you use to reference all the time has nothing but great things to say about PSA.
post #64 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater View Post

…. but I will anyway. rolleyes.gif

It was a debate just like this on another thread between shady and basehead that convinced me to buy the PSA XV15. It seemed to me that shadyj really has a strong dislike, almost hate for PSA. Makes me wonder if Tom or Jim wronged him somehow. But its very obvious that shady will not admit that PSA makes a good product, at least not without a strong qualifier and even then I don't think he will. I have often wondered why. Meanwhile basshead appeared to present his case in a much fairer and far less biased manner. Basshead's arguments along with suggestions from some others of you went a long way to helping me decide to go with the XV15. And I could not be happier! So thanks guys. 

So I say let shady and basehead debate, the information they throw out is a gold mine and helped me out a ton. Besides its highly entertaining. biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

And who do you think helped start that admirable philosophy? Could it be two of the guys that were instrumental in helping start SVS and now have a company called PSA? rolleyes.gif

Yet you do nothing but bash their new company, go figure.

I certainly respect your knowledge on a lot of things but sometimes its rather hard to stomach constant assault of trying to prove why people should buy anything other then PSA products. Yet the guy that does the testing that you use to reference all the time has nothing but great things to say about PSA.

I don't have any personal beef with PSA, but I do object when their product is declared superior to equally or better performing products based on a skewed perspective of the measurements. My main complaint isn't even about its distortion measurements exactly. Its the driver. It has a motor that belongs on a 10", not a 15". It exhibits all the signs of a high inductance driver which is not a good thing from a sound quality perspective. You think you are getting a serious 15" for $800, and what a incredible deal that would be, but the reality is different. It trades sound quality and accuracy for output, and what's worse is it doesn't even get a substantial lead in output over some equivalently priced subs for the trade it makes. Its supporters have to twist the data through all kinds of convolutions to demonstrate a performance gain over less expensive subs with smaller drivers and weaker amps.

I suppose more broadly speaking, I dislike the trade of quality for quantity. I get that it doesn't matter to most people, that they just want bigger booms for their explosions, but it's an ethos that bugs me. It leads to McDonalds being the most popular restaurant and Wal-mart being the most popular store. I also get that may factor in my own biases and slants my view. However, one thing you guys will note is that in these debates I keep it technical always, and always it ends with PSA owners writing me off as having some kind of grudge against PSA. Even if that were true, it doesn't address my points. Basshead81, to his credit, has been offering technical counter points to my arguments for the most part.

Anyway, PSA seems doing very well despite my contention, so you guys don't need to be so defensive. Although I believe my arguments are very good ones, they haven't been changing many minds. Nonetheless, I won't stop or concede until someone makes a convincing counter on technical grounds, which thus far hasn't been done.
post #65 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post


I don't have any personal beef with PSA, but I do object when their product is declared superior to equally or better performing products based on a skewed perspective of the measurements. My main complaint isn't even about its distortion measurements exactly. Its the driver. It has a motor that belongs on a 10", not a 15". It exhibits all the signs of a high inductance driver which is not a good thing from a sound quality perspective. You think you are getting a serious 15" for $800, and what a incredible deal that would be, but the reality is different. It trades sound quality and accuracy for output, and what's worse is it doesn't even get a substantial lead in output over some equivalently priced subs for the trade it makes. Its supporters have to twist the data through all kinds of convolutions to demonstrate a performance gain over less expensive subs with smaller drivers and weaker amps.

I suppose more broadly speaking, I dislike the trade of quality for quantity. I get that it doesn't matter to most people, that they just want bigger booms for their explosions, but it's an ethos that bugs me. It leads to McDonalds being the most popular restaurant and Wal-mart being the most popular store. I also get that may factor in my own biases and slants my view. However, one thing you guys will note is that in these debates I keep it technical always, and always it ends with PSA owners writing me off as having some kind of grudge against PSA. Even if that were true, it doesn't address my points. Basshead81, to his credit, has been offering technical counter points to my arguments for the most part.

Anyway, PSA seems doing very well despite my contention, so you guys don't need to be so defensive. Although I believe my arguments are very good ones, they haven't been changing many minds. Nonetheless, I won't stop or concede until someone makes a convincing counter on technical grounds, which thus far hasn't been done.

So when can we expect the bashing of the Triax sub and its drivers to begin? rolleyes.gif
post #66 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post


I don't have any personal beef with PSA, but I do object when their product is declared superior to equally or better performing products based on a skewed perspective of the measurements. My main complaint isn't even about its distortion measurements exactly. Its the driver. It has a motor that belongs on a 10", not a 15". It exhibits all the signs of a high inductance driver which is not a good thing from a sound quality perspective. You think you are getting a serious 15" for $800, and what a incredible deal that would be, but the reality is different. It trades sound quality and accuracy for output, and what's worse is it doesn't even get a substantial lead in output over some equivalently priced subs for the trade it makes. Its supporters have to twist the data through all kinds of convolutions to demonstrate a performance gain over less expensive subs with smaller drivers and weaker amps.

I suppose more broadly speaking, I dislike the trade of quality for quantity. I get that it doesn't matter to most people, that they just want bigger booms for their explosions, but it's an ethos that bugs me. It leads to McDonalds being the most popular restaurant and Wal-mart being the most popular store. I also get that may factor in my own biases and slants my view. However, one thing you guys will note is that in these debates I keep it technical always, and always it ends with PSA owners writing me off as having some kind of grudge against PSA. Even if that were true, it doesn't address my points. Basshead81, to his credit, has been offering technical counter points to my arguments for the most part.

Anyway, PSA seems doing very well despite my contention, so you guys don't need to be so defensive. Although I believe my arguments are very good ones, they haven't been changing many minds. Nonetheless, I won't stop or concede until someone makes a convincing counter on technical grounds, which thus far hasn't been done.

The only sub I said it was better than was the EX, which according to a few that have had both subs confirmed this as well. You have your way of looking at data and thats fine, but it does not necessarily make it right either. I have herd over a dozen commercial subs over the years and none of them sound anywhere close to the XV15. That does not mean I think it will sound better then a PB12 or a EX, but it does sound good. Like I previously said, all of these ID sub companies make great products that trump the brick and mortar stuff. Can we agree on this?
post #67 of 142
DP
Edited by basshead81 - 11/16/13 at 4:47pm
post #68 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I don't have any personal beef with PSA, but I do object when their product is declared superior to equally or better performing products based on a skewed perspective of the measurements. My main complaint isn't even about its distortion measurements exactly. Its the driver. It has a motor that belongs on a 10", not a 15". It exhibits all the signs of a high inductance driver which is not a good thing from a sound quality perspective. You think you are getting a serious 15" for $800, and what a incredible deal that would be, but the reality is different. It trades sound quality and accuracy for output, and what's worse is it doesn't even get a substantial lead in output over some equivalently priced subs for the trade it makes. Its supporters have to twist the data through all kinds of convolutions to demonstrate a performance gain over less expensive subs with smaller drivers and weaker amps.

I suppose more broadly speaking, I dislike the trade of quality for quantity. I get that it doesn't matter to most people, that they just want bigger booms for their explosions, but it's an ethos that bugs me. It leads to McDonalds being the most popular restaurant and Wal-mart being the most popular store. 
 

You have a lot of knowledge in a lot of different subjects and I have gleaned knowledge off your posts. But in reading your thoughts here I started to ask myself: "On what authority does he make these statements?" (and I mean that with respect, it's a legit question of curiosity). 

 

What I mean is, how do you know that it is a motor that belongs on a 10" sub, not 15". Is your background on par with knowledgeable men like Tom and Jim who are well respected in the field of subwoofer engineering? I have seen some of your posts on other forums and threads where you posted photos of the magnets on different subwoofers comparing them to the PSA and you seem to have come to the conclusion that the smaller magnet on the PSA makes it a worse subwoofer by default. I say by default because I never saw anywhere where you backed up your hypothesis with hard data (if I missed it I apologize). All I ever read was you noting the size of the magnet with out explaining the engineering behind why it mattered. It appeared to be a random conclusion that you arrived at and posted it like it was common engineering knowledge. If I'm wrong here I'm sorry but that's why I'm I asking these questions.

 

In the above post you say that the motor should be used on 10" subs and not 15" subs. How did you arrive at the conclusion its good for a 10" sub and not a 15" sub? Is there an engineering source guide somewhere that lists what motor should be used on which sized sub? Because if not you seem to be making a blanket statement of opinion and passing it off as fact. Again, if I'm wrong, I apologize and please site the source of your knowledge so we can all benefit. Do you have a background in subwoofer and or driver design?

 

And once again I ask these questions with respect. Because personally I could not begin to tell anyone why a certain sized magnet makes one sub great and another the McDonalds of subwoofers. 

post #69 of 142
The XV15 motor is not that small...its 5" diameter triple stacked to allow more excursion. Shady will then argue that triple stack causes a loss of cone control but imo the type of spider, suspension/surround, and cone plays a big factor in control. Evidently Scott Atwell @ FI audio apparently has no clue. rolleyes.gif
Edited by basshead81 - 11/16/13 at 6:56pm
post #70 of 142
I think it's also fair to point out so anyone that reads shady's negative comments towards PSA subs, that for the record he still hasn't heard ANY of them yet. So anything he says about how they might sound compared to another sub is really just an opinion and not fact, and we all know how the old saying on opinions...lol wink.gif
post #71 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

I think it's also fair to point out so anyone that reads shady's negative comments towards PSA subs, that for the record he still hasn't heard ANY of them yet. So anything he says about how they might sound compared to another sub is really just an opinion and not fact, and we all know how the old saying on opinions...lol wink.gif
Some forget that the XV-15 won product of the year from Audiohaulics on its introduction, not to mention that the XV-15 is made up mostly of US sourced parts and assembled in the US. The XV-15 sounds good and sounds good when pushed hard. Sounds like a $700 or $800 dollar sub should sound like and does it well. I owned dual XV-15's and dual Outlaws and I was surprised that the Outlaws hung pretty well with the XV-15's, however when I pushed the Outlaws hard, they sounded like they were going to fall apart. Not the case with the XV's.
Edited by Reefdvr27 - 11/16/13 at 8:09pm
post #72 of 142
Hopinator I have zero authority to talk about drivers or speakers. I am not in the audio industry, and my educational background does not concern audio. Any claims I make should not be taken at face value and should be confirmed by reliable sources like the JAES for example. Jim and Tom are going to know way more than I do about subwoofers. They could school me if they wanted. On the other hand, I am not selling anything. Outside of my own biases I have no reason to mislead anyone.

As for my comments about the XV15's miserly driver motor, the data to back my assertions can be seen in audioholics review and data-bass measurements of the sub. A 15" with as much excursion and amp power as PSA claims should have way more displacement than 12"s with less power and less xmax. However, I'm guessing that in part due to its slight magnet it isn't a very sensitive driver, and even 500 watts can't movie it that much. On the other hand, it just can't handle much more juice than that as the distortion sweeps demonstrate. Its magnetic linearity looks like it's getting whacked by inductance and it's using equalization as a workaround. The optimal solution would be to use a more substantial motor with shorting rings, but, of course, that costs money. This all takes a toll on accuracy. Again, don't take my word for any of this, get confirmation from the available literature or better yet just have one of the industry pros who post around here take a look at my very speculative, amateur analysis and say whether I am totally off. I still have a lot to learn and may be completely wrong.
post #73 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81 View Post

The XV15 motor is not that small...its 5" diameter triple stacked to allow more excursion. Shady will then argue that triple stack causes a loss of cone control but imo the type of spider, suspension/surround, and cone plays a big factor in control.

The magnet height doesn't cause loss of cone control, but shallow magnets will. Spiders and surround will play a big role as well, but my understanding is the cone doesn't unless it's unusually bad.
post #74 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post

Some forget that the XV-15 won product of the year from Audiohaulics on its introduction, not to mention that the XV-15 is made up mostly of US sourced parts and assembled in the US. The XV-15 sounds good and sounds good when pushed hard. Sounds like a $700 or $800 dollar sub should sound like and does it well. I owned dual XV-15's and dual Outlaws and I was surprised that the Outlaws hung pretty well with the XV-15's, however when I pushed the Outlaws hard, they sounded like they were going to fall apart. Not the case with the XV's.

That is a point in favor of larger woofers, they don't need to move as much to produce the same output. Everything else being equal, 12"s would be running into mechanical stress much sooner than 15"s.
post #75 of 142
Thread Starter 
Lots of good information, most of it is a bit over my head though haha. This is the hard part of being a novice with audio, I don't have a good grasp on what the difference in these numbers mean in the real world. 2 quick questions,

1) I saw in another thread that PSA subs had a "thicker" sound quality and Rythmik subs had a "Drier" sound quality. I did a lot of testing with headphones a couple years ago and I found I preferred closed DJ style headphones to the more musically accurate open headphones from Grado or Sennheiser. Would this be similar?

2) I've been curious about sub-woofer life spans. It seems like people have subs from 10 years ago or longer. Do sub woofers generally last awhile? I do like the idea of buying a sub that would be the last sub I buy for a long while, ie if I get the FV15HP and another 4 years down the road, that they will last for 10-15 years. Since they are 100lbs+ I can't imagine sending them in for repair is cheap.
post #76 of 142
Thicker or drier is just one person opinion. When a sub is not working, either its amp or driver has gone bad so manufacture usually asks you to take either the amp or driver out to send it in, so it won't be a 100lbs you are shipping.
My advise: buy one best sub you can afford unless you can buy two as it is the most important component in a home theater. Many here did not and end up spending a whole lot more to reach his bass craving.
post #77 of 142
Thread Starter 
One more novice question, does output = loudness? It seems that for the extra cost for the Rythmik you get more output and lower frequency than the XV-15. One thing I'd be worried about is that since the living room opens to the dining room and kitchen, can I go too overboard? ie will going with too much output risk rattling my plates, dishes, pots/pans, alcohol, etc?
post #78 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warder45 View Post

One more novice question, does output = loudness? It seems that for the extra cost for the Rythmik you get more output and lower frequency than the XV-15. One thing I'd be worried about is that since the living room opens to the dining room and kitchen, can I go too overboard? ie will going with too much output risk rattling my plates, dishes, pots/pans, alcohol, etc?

I believe that output does indeed equal the ability to play clean bass without distorting and breaking apart at loud levels.  And yes, a strong sub does have the capability to rattle plates, dishes etc. My XV15 rattles the clock I have on the wall to the point when I'm watching a movie with good bass I end up taking the clock off the wall. But you can control all that by turning down your sub a little if you want. But why would anyone want to do that?

 

If I'm wrong in this hopefully somebody will correct me. But that has always been my understanding of output.

post #79 of 142
Thread Starter 
Just an update, after being completely frozen trying to decide between, 2 XV-15's, 2 FV15HP's, 2 LFM-1 Ex's or trying my hand at using flat packs and building a AIY, I jumped on the Outlaw BF sale for 2 LFM-1 EX's for $1200 shipped.

While I liked the idea that 2 FV15HP's might be the last sub-woofers I'd ever need, I also don't know how important that 12.5hz sound is compared to 18hz is to me. It was hard to justify another $1500 over the outlaws for something unknown (well it was hard to justify that cost right now on anything haha).

I was also intrigued by the AIY route, however I think it would have taken me months of research to figure everything out and I don't want to miss this sale (wish I would have started looking sooner). One thing that I'm unsure about is that it seems one big advantage of DIY/AIY subs is the ability to buy 1 large amp and drive multiple subs off of it. But what little research I've seen, seems to show you run wire (speaker? RCA?) from the amp to the box and not coax. My room is already wired for coax and not wire. I really don't want to drag more cables through the walls and I think trying to fit a plate amp in the AIY boxes might be more than I'd like to tackle right now. Also this room may not be able to handle the power draw of a 5000w amp + TV + all the other equipment, since it wasn't built for that purpose and may only be on a 15a breaker.

Maybe in the future when I have a dedicated HT room, I'll re-explore those options.
post #80 of 142
Nice subs for the price. Congrats. Hope you don't question yourself 'what if' in the near future.
post #81 of 142
Thread Starter 
haha I know. I guarantee once I have a better room, I'll be getting upgrade-itis really quick.
post #82 of 142
How big of a difference is there really between the Rythmik vs HSU? I mean if one uses 2 VTF-15H its should have more than enough output so won't it come down to sound quality? So does a servo rythmik really sound better than a HSU? I'm asking cause I'm trying to decide on the HSU VTF-15H or Rythmik FV-15HP, I'll end up with two of them one soon and another in the summer.
post #83 of 142
Both have excellent SQ and the final decision may come down to personal preference. I would go Rythmik by a hair margin. If you have room for a Rythmik, maybe some of the DYI 18 in.options can be equal size wise and performance and save you a chunk of cash. I use passive subs with a Berhinger amp and like the control to fashion the subs response with the DSP. You can squeeze the best performance out of the subs.
post #84 of 142
What sub would give me the best hit me in the chest feeling? I love when you can feel that hit.
post #85 of 142
Quote:
however when I pushed the Outlaws hard, they sounded like they were going to fall apart.

This is what I have herd in the past and alluded to earlier in the thread. Josh agrees with you or you agree with Josh?? smile.gif
post #86 of 142
What about JTR Captivator 1000 passive with an ep4000?

Pushes the upper end of your budget but WOW, killer sub
post #87 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

This is what I have herd in the past and alluded to earlier in the thread. Josh agrees with you or you agree with Josh?? smile.gif

Here is what is BS about this rumor of the Outlaw's poor build quality, I have pushed them as hard as they get, and they did not sound like like they were going to 'fall apart'. The problem is they are underported for one port mode when pushed. The ports are only 2.5" in diameter. That can cause sounds of distress, but it isn't an issue of build quality. I ought to make a youtube video to demonstrate how the sub handles max output, it is solid. This so-called 'issue' of the Outlaw's build quality is being raised by XV15 owners who want to believe their higher spec'd and more expensive sub has an advantage over the Outlaw. Hey guys, sorry that your sub has more THD, more compression, and less linearity with only a hair more output than a sub which is only 3/4s the price at the moment, but you don't have to resort to BS to compensate.
post #88 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Here is what is BS about this rumor of the Outlaw's poor build quality, I have pushed them as hard as they get, and they did not sound like like they were going to 'fall apart'. The problem is they are underported for one port mode when pushed. The ports are only 2.5" in diameter. That can cause sounds of distress, but it isn't an issue of build quality. I ought to make a youtube video to demonstrate how the sub handles max output, it is solid. This so-called 'issue' of the Outlaw's build quality is being raised by XV15 owners who want to believe their higher spec'd and more expensive sub has an advantage over the Outlaw. Hey guys, sorry that your sub has more THD, more compression, and less linearity with only a hair more output than a sub which is only 3/4s the price at the moment, but you don't have to resort to BS to compensate.

Here we go again, every time I think you've turned a corner you go and posts something stupid like that calling out PSA and the XV15 rolleyes.gif Go figure. (SMH)
post #89 of 142
^^^ But this doesn't change the fact that Outlaw build quality isn't "poor."

It's all about what's driving the project and balancing compromises...
post #90 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by defmoot View Post

^^^ But this doesn't change the fact that Outlaw build quality isn't "poor."

It's all about what's driving the project and balancing compromises...

Did I say it did?
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