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$18,000 Simaudio AV processor actually a repackaged Denon AVR? - Page 3

post #61 of 222
I'm thinking about repurposing butt plugs as decoupling devices to place under sensitive electronics for 50x markup. What do you think?
post #62 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Hi there. In my opinion this is actually a very clever solution to get a reliable product. Let me explain.

It's not cleverness. It's desperation. And this scenario is only going to get worse.

IMO, it's both. The desperation is obvious - no engineer real or self-proclaimed, wants to be in the business of merely reskinning or rebranding other people's products. Nobody wants to outsource their production to that degree. Pride breeds a desire to be in control. Merely creating the artwork for the user manual's cover page, the logo on the front and back, and the shipping box, is very few people's dream. The various end-runs can be clever in their way.

It is also deju vu all over again. I worked for Lafayette Radio in the 1960s and watched them lose control over their products. When i started working for them they were driving the electronics production complex in Long Island City, etc. and employed some of the best audio circuit designers in the business. By the time I left a few years later everything they sold was designed and built by second and third tier design and build houses in Japan.
post #63 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

You will have agreement from everyone here when that SimAudio PrePro blows the doors off, in blind fashion, the Integra DHC 80.3 or Marantz AV8801.
Did you explain why anyone in the commercial world would care if the few of you agreed or didn't with anything?

Let me show you how poor your stance is. AVS Forum is owned by an AV company (AV Science). They are a dealer for Parasound. A pair of Parasound JC1 monoblocks cost $9,000. I suspect you would take the position that such an amplifier will never win a double blind test with the above company's AVR's amps. And have posted in this forum many times. Surely if Parasound or AVS cared about you having any impact on their sales, by now your posts would be deleted and you would be banned from the forums. Yet, here you are.

Amir, I'm not sure that you have the last word on what the owners of AVS think is the business that they are in.

I don't think that the margins on $9K Parasound amps is where most of the cash flow comes from. If they sell even one, it is found money and IMO good for them.

I suspect that advertising, whose revenues are largely based on hits, rules the day.

Please take a look at the number of "Thumbs up" that say Bill Fitzmaurice has (>500), and how many you have (about 10% of that from 3 times as many posts), and learn. ;-) In my book he is about 30 times as effective as you are. People obviously go away from his posts with a good feeling about AVS. Those good feelings bring them back and they read more ads along the way.

Around here, reliable facts and useful advice sells.
post #64 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

IMO, it's both. The desperation is obvious - no engineer real or self-proclaimed, wants to be in the business of merely reskinning or rebranding other people's products. Nobody wants to outsource their production to that degree. Pride breeds a desire to be in control. Merely creating the artwork for the user manual's cover page, the logo on the front and back, and the shipping box, is very few people's dream. The various end-runs can be clever in their way.
That is a recipe for a failing business. Do you really think a company should have an operating model based on "pride?" Really? My first automatic car was a BMW 5 series in 1990s. The transmission was made by GM! Yes, GM. BMW then bought Land Rover and they proceeded to put the BMW engine in Range Rover. You think anyone cared about the feelings of any engineers involved in those decisions?

Do you think when you buy a Dell or HP laptop that someone at Dell or HP designed them? If so, you are ground zero of understanding how any electronic business works. Laptops are entirely designed by Taiwan ODMs using marketing specs from PC companies and manufactured in China. There are engineers at both HP and Dell. Not seeing them having a strike on streets because they were not allowed to do such work.

The first iPod at Apple was based on an existing design. Apple added new UI, the wheel, and excellent package and sold the product with 65% margin where a typical consumer electronics product sells at zero or negative margin.

AMD sold it is semiconductor facility and is now a fabless design house. As is Apple, ARM, Qualcomm, etc. Where is the engineering pride in that saying they should have their own in-house manufacturing? The answer is that the business people overrode them. Taiwan's TSMC could compete with Intel's massive investments in silicon manufacturing far more than each of these companies could do on their own. We are talking about billions of dollars for each iteration of silicon geometry/design.
Quote:
It is also deju vu all over again. I worked for Lafayette Radio in the 1960s and watched them lose control over their products. When i started working for them they were driving the electronics production complex in Long Island City, etc. and employed some of the best audio circuit designers in the business. By the time I left a few years later everything they sold was designed and built by second and third tier design and build houses in Japan.
That is the issue behind your incorrect guesses as to how the electronics world works. In 1960s US was still kind of manufacturing for electronics. You imported rice from China not your latest iPhone. Vast transformation came about with PC business where the Taiwanese tooled up to do the design and ship it to China to be built with cheap labor. Once there, they went after the Japanese companies and completely put their design and manufacturing shops out of business. The top silicon provider to build a Blu-ray player is from MediaTek, a Taiwanese company. Not Sony. Not Matsushita. And not Broadcom which had to exist the business as the price of that silicon plummeted down to just $5. What Japanese did to US, the Chinese (and Koreans) have done to them 100 times over.

Panasonic just announced that they are exiting the Plasma TV business on the heals of shipping the best Plasma TVs, finally matching the performance of the legend, the late Pioneer Kuro. You don't think pride was hurt at Panasonic engineering or manufacturing? Please forgive me for name dropping smile.gif, but the CEO or Panasonic worldwide (Tsuga-san) is a good friend. I knew him when he was in research and was just appointed to run then DVD business. He later got promoted up to run all the AV business and he and I would spend many hours discussing the state of electronics business including that of TVs. I worked at Sony for 5 years where by Japanese boss was later promoted to run all of Sony (terrible decision for them to do that!). I say these things to stop more speculation of how an industry works with no insight into it whatsoever. This world does not work the way one imagines it working when you are an outside, or end user.
post #65 of 222
Quote:
I'm thinking about repurposing butt plugs as decoupling devices to place under sensitive electronics for 50x markup. What do you think?
If you won't mark them up at least 100x, they can't be worth very much.
post #66 of 222
You know, it could've been worse. Just imagine if the product had been developed by the government with the many layers of beaurocratic oversight and committees. The GAO would've estimated the cost at 200K, but delays would push thecostto 10x more. But don't worry, I you like your Denon you can keep it. If you like your dealer, no one is going to make you switch.
post #67 of 222
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm thinking about repurposing butt plugs as decoupling devices to place under sensitive electronics for 50x markup. What do you think?

If you act quickly, you may be in time for your product to be put on the Stereophile Recommended Components List for 2014.
Edited by andyc56 - 11/16/13 at 10:37am
post #68 of 222
It makes sense that Lexus bases their ES line off their Camry but I don't see them marking the ES that high as Sim Audio does with this AV pro.
post #69 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

It makes sense that Lexus bases their ES line off their Camry but I don't see them marking the ES that high as Sim Audio does with this AV semipro.
There, I fixed it for you.
post #70 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm thinking about repurposing butt plugs as decoupling devices to place under sensitive electronics for 50x markup. What do you think?

If you act quickly, you may be in time for your product to be put on the Stereophile Recommended Components List for 2014.
Yes, it'll come out in the 50 Shades of Gray - WAF Audiophile Edition.
post #71 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm thinking about repurposing butt plugs as decoupling devices to place under sensitive electronics for 50x markup. What do you think?
You'll probably get more money for them if they're unused.
post #72 of 222
Quote:
Quote:
I'm thinking about repurposing butt plugs as decoupling devices to place under sensitive electronics for 50x markup. What do you think?
You'll probably get more money for them if they're unused.
But then he couldn't charge for having them pre-broken-in.
post #73 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The CP-8 is old news and, at the time, I did not regard it as a real product.
The news can never be old enough for people who enjoy outrage as a hobby.
post #74 of 222
Thread Starter 
It's old news because people who knew about it failed to report on it at the time it was going on. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I find it amusing that this stuff goes on in high-end audio, but much less so when people in the press who knew about it not only failed to report it, but come across with an attitude of superiority for having known it.

Audioholics has been very good with respect to coverage of controversial news items and allowing uncensored discussion of them, like the old Schifty saga. OTOH, the mainstream press provides news items like this. In my view, many of these controversial news items are more important to the community than the run-of-the-mill stuff you might normally read because they bring attention to things that might adversely affect the unsuspecting.
post #75 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Are you sure about that? Do you know of some sales figures for ultra high end? If audio gear is following socioeconomic trends, than the ultra high end should be doing very well, along with the ultra cheap stuff. I would guess its the mid-fi market that would be shrinking following a shrinking middle class.

I'm POSITIVE the ultra high end is shrinking. Do you think there are more dedicated Audio/HT/AV shops now than 20 years ago?
post #76 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The news can never be old enough for people who enjoy outrage as a hobby.

+1
post #77 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I'm POSITIVE the ultra high end is shrinking. Do you think there are more dedicated Audio/HT/AV shops now than 20 years ago?

Not sure that conclusion works out.

The few high end shops I know of are still around, while most of the low and midfi stores I knew of are gone - people buy that stuff on the Internet.
post #78 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

That is a recipe for a failing business. Do you really think a company should have an operating model based on "pride?" Really? My first automatic car was a BMW 5 series in 1990s. The transmission was made by GM! Yes, GM. BMW then bought Land Rover and they proceeded to put the BMW engine in Range Rover. You think anyone cared about the feelings of any engineers involved in those decisions?

Do you think when you buy a Dell or HP laptop that someone at Dell or HP designed them? If so, you are ground zero of understanding how any electronic business works. Laptops are entirely designed by Taiwan ODMs using marketing specs from PC companies and manufactured in China. There are engineers at both HP and Dell. Not seeing them having a strike on streets because they were not allowed to do such work.

And the entire statement has exactly what to do with taking a $1100 2008/2009 Denon and repackaging it with some upgrades to the tune of 1700%?

And for he record when I look at cars I make sure to do the due diligence. Wanted to buy 'American' but get the reliability of a Toyota? Get the Vibe. Wanted to buy 'American' but get the Mazda 323? Get the Ford Escort
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

The first iPod at Apple was based on an existing design. Apple added new UI, the wheel, and excellent package and sold the product with 65% margin where a typical consumer electronics product sells at zero or negative margin.

And as Apple proved that when they take some existing architecture, vastly improve the user experience, then can indeed charge a price premium. If its 30% people will shop it and discount the advantage, price it at 125% and people don't care for the premium, but price it at ~80% premium and people snap it up all day long.

None of that is 1700% however. And trust me Apple did the PSYCHOLOGICAL research on that to come up with the 80% number.

This isn't helping SimAudio to have this out there in the more mainstream. It's also not helping the paper magazines that know about this and don't say anything. It is worth mentioning to your readership. But alas, it's not the subscribers that are being serviced.

Media is about delivering customers to the Advertisers.

I would bet AVS makes more $$ on the Denon X2/3/4K than Parasound there ;-)
post #79 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Not sure that conclusion works out.

The few high end shops I know of are still around, while most of the low and midfi stores I knew of are gone - people buy that stuff on the Internet.

There are fewer ULTRA highend shops around too. There where more than a few in Cleveland / Ann Arbor / Columbus / Cinci/Pittsburg. I'm talking where speakers started out at $15K. That was 18 years ago. Poof all up in smoke.

What has happened through better manufacturing is that quality has gone up and prices have come down. I just got back from the Parts Express Central Kentucky get together. The amp was a Crown XLS1500. In a room full of actual speaker designers. Think about it.
post #80 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

Are you sure about that? Do you know of some sales figures for ultra high end? If audio gear is following socioeconomic trends, than the ultra high end should be doing very well, along with the ultra cheap stuff. I would guess its the mid-fi market that would be shrinking following a shrinking middle class.

I'm POSITIVE the ultra high end is shrinking. Do you think there are more dedicated Audio/HT/AV shops now than 20 years ago?

Less and less around here.

Brick and Mortar retail home audio is also shrinking - fewer outlets.
post #81 of 222
Understand I'm not outraged at anything. What I am pointing out is that:

1. The ultra highend is shrinking
2. In some verticals the ultra highend has 100% lost the ability to produce now standard $1-2K pre-pro (regardless of what the boutique manufacturer would charge) with all the bells and whistles (Emotiva is STILL hacking away at their high end, my guess is that they will abandon it)
3. Items like Amps and DACS are commoditized as far as pricing. I'm talking $1000 and under here (two channel)
4. In the face of all this it is getting harder and harder to be a ultra high end store since the message, regardless of your socio-economic bracket, is out there.

I have no particular dog in this fight. I'm never going to be a SimAudio owner, not because I lack funds, it's because when sitting at the card table if you can't spot the chump it's most likely yourself.
post #82 of 222
To a large extent, I concur with Amir's synopsis of 'how things are done" and the economic reasons driving this. Yet, I'm troubled by what Sim Audio did for a number of reasons. It's one thing for some company to go to one of the many outfits in China or Korea who make a particular product and have it customized for them. Every month or so, I receive an email from Global Sources with a link to a downloadable PDF for the consumer electronics industry about Asian companies, what they're offering, they're capabilities, and who some of their OEM buying are. But this thing with Denon seems a little different to me. Rather than the car examples Amir brought up, the cr example that comes to my mind is when GM took a Chevy Cavalier and dressed it up as a Cadillac Cimmaron. A pretty mundane and uninspiring Chevy became a plodding and embarassing luxury automobile. it was decades later that an actual public apology was made.

As I said, I'm troubled for a number of reasons.
The sheer hubris shown by Sim Audo strikes me as insulting.
I wonder if a company can take an existing product,, open it, swap out a few parts, and put it into a new case ad legally claim that it still meets FCC regulations?
I'm bothered by the utter gullibility of many consumers who often think that the word design means they actually developed a prototype, soup to nuts, and had it made overseas.
I'm also bothered by the audio press which knows of these things yet fails to find a way to disclose it to the public. Car & Driver or Road & Track do a better job of disclosing rebadging. The audio press by and large act as a bunch of *******, seemingly afraid to ruffle any feathers, and instead act as publicists and spokespersons for the industry, serving them more than they do us.

So yeah, the news is old and I'm a little outraged. Lots of things happen in life that you find out years later. The passage of time doesn't make them any more palatable.
post #83 of 222
Well said. I think the audio press depends on the manufacturers to provide equipment for reviews and doesn't want to stop the flow. What we need is some audio press that doesn't rely on the manufacturers for anything. I can't remember the last time I read an audio magazine. It has been at least 15 years. They prey on the gullible in the same was as the high end manufacturers.
post #84 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Think about it.

I have all sorts of gear from cheapo to high end, consumer to pro audio, although nothing ultra high end from either category. What am I supposed to think about?.
post #85 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post

Well said. I think the audio press depends on the manufacturers to provide equipment for reviews and doesn't want to stop the flow.

The irony being that the audio press doesn't do good fair reviews of anything. They are further hobbled by the fact that subjective tests of loudspeakers are terribly hobbled by the fact that they are done in a room that is unlike their readers listening rooms.
Quote:
What we need is some audio press that doesn't rely on the manufacturers for anything.

Other than Consumer Reports...
Quote:
I can't remember the last time I read an audio magazine. It has been at least 15 years. They prey on the gullible in the same ways as the high end manufacturers.

I still remember the 1980s when a bunch of enthusiasts figured out that if they could create a credible shell of an audio magazine, they could borrow stacks of nifty audio gear to play with. There was an explosion of new underground audio magazine wannabees.
post #86 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

The irony being that the audio press doesn't do good fair reviews of anything. They are further hobbled by the fact that subjective tests of loudspeakers are terribly hobbled by the fact that they are done in a room that is unlike their readers listening rooms.
Other than Consumer Reports...
I still remember the 1980s when a bunch of enthusiasts figured out that if they could create a credible shell of an audio magazine, they could borrow stacks of nifty audio gear to play with. There was an explosion of new underground audio magazine wannabees.

I remember one from the '70's. It was called "Golden Ears." I remember how pleased I was when I read a rave review of my Sony TTS-3000 turntable. I even bought a Grace tonearm for it as they recommended. I still use the tonearm. It wasn't until years later that I learned that the entire business was nonsense.. It was a crushing blow to a loyal audiophile. When I think back on those days I don't really miss the equipment. I actually get a little mad at myself for having engaged in the whole thing.
post #87 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

To a large extent, I concur with Amir's synopsis of 'how things are done" and the economic reasons driving this. Yet, I'm troubled by what Sim Audio did for a number of reasons. It's one thing for some company to go to one of the many outfits in China or Korea who make a particular product and have it customized for them. Every month or so, I receive an email from Global Sources with a link to a downloadable PDF for the consumer electronics industry about Asian companies, what they're offering, they're capabilities, and who some of their OEM buying are. But this thing with Denon seems a little different to me. Rather than the car examples Amir brought up, the cr example that comes to my mind is when GM took a Chevy Cavalier and dressed it up as a Cadillac Cimmaron. A pretty mundane and uninspiring Chevy became a plodding and embarassing luxury automobile. it was decades later that an actual public apology was made.

As I said, I'm troubled for a number of reasons.
The sheer hubris shown by Sim Audo strikes me as insulting.
I wonder if a company can take an existing product,, open it, swap out a few parts, and put it into a new case ad legally claim that it still meets FCC regulations?
I'm bothered by the utter gullibility of many consumers who often think that the word design means they actually developed a prototype, soup to nuts, and had it made overseas.
I'm also bothered by the audio press which knows of these things yet fails to find a way to disclose it to the public. Car & Driver or Road & Track do a better job of disclosing rebadging. The audio press by and large act as a bunch of *******, seemingly afraid to ruffle any feathers, and instead act as publicists and spokespersons for the industry, serving them more than they do us.

So yeah, the news is old and I'm a little outraged. Lots of things happen in life that you find out years later. The passage of time doesn't make them any more palatable.
excellent post, Chu.
post #88 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

To a large extent, I concur with Amir's synopsis of 'how things are done" and the economic reasons driving this. Yet, I'm troubled by what Sim Audio did for a number of reasons. It's one thing for some company to go to one of the many outfits in China or Korea who make a particular product and have it customized for them. Every month or so, I receive an email from Global Sources with a link to a downloadable PDF for the consumer electronics industry about Asian companies, what they're offering, they're capabilities, and who some of their OEM buying are. But this thing with Denon seems a little different to me. Rather than the car examples Amir brought up, the cr example that comes to my mind is when GM took a Chevy Cavalier and dressed it up as a Cadillac Cimmaron. A pretty mundane and uninspiring Chevy became a plodding and embarassing luxury automobile. it was decades later that an actual public apology was made.
Hi Chu. I appreciate your points and reaction. I think where we differ is that what they have done is just an example of things folks do behind the scenes in this industry. As I say, we are "learning how the sausage is made" and then don't like to eat it anymore smile.gif. CE business is full of such things. It simply is the case that we don't know about it so the one case that is publicized gets a lot of attention among end users.

Let me give you an example of how the sausage is made. When the blu-ray format first came out, they created a pavilion at CES and brought products from all of their member companies. I had a lot of work to do at the show so did not get to see this until the last few hours of the show. As anyone who has gone to the show knows, folks from the companies putting up this show start to leave and only a skeleton crew is there at the end of the show. So I walk in and I see this massive pavilion with no one there. In one area I see half a dozen manufacture Blu-ray players and corresponding wall of displays showing their blu-ray images. Or so one would think. I knew the industry inside and out and could not fathom how so many of them had managed to get a working product out. I was curious as to which disc they were playing so I hit the eject button. To may amazement, the drawer opened but the picture kept playing!!! I look around and still see nobody around. I proceed to hit the eject button in a player after player with the same experience. All the videos were fake and were probably being played by a hidden hard disk HD server and not blu-ray. I close the tray and see that when one hits play, the LEDs start to act as if it is playing so someone had actually cooked the machine to pretend it was playing something where it clearly had not.

In another example around the same time, one of our guys in Singapore went to the showroom of one of these companies proudly showing a working Blu-ray player. He goes behind the player and sees that the video cable is disconnected! He took a picture and email it to me which I post here.

In another example, I had an executive meeting with one of the top three-Japanese brands. They wanted to impress me so they showed me some of the research. In one case, they brought out a boombox that had a very fancy interface for music (this is in early 2000s so having something that advanced was unheard of). They go through the full demo and I can't figure out how they could have implemented all of that to fit in the cost and price point boombox. When the meeting disbanded I pulled one of their people and asked them what silicon they were using. He quietly tells me that what I was seeing was a Linux PC doing everything and the boombox was a dummy thing!!!

Another example: Lexicon put out this wonderful multi-channel amp called DD-8 a couple of years ago. It gives you 8 channels of amplification in a 1 RU chassis. The reason they could make it so small is due to work they did with TI to develop the core of their class I amplification in a single chip. That development was not funded by the small volumes of such amps. But rather, it was designed for the 2+ billion dollar Harman does in automotive business. There, having least amount of weight and power consumption is very important. Since volume of cars runs in tens of millions if not hundreds, TI not only worked with Harman on this but actually co-designed new silicon for it. Anyway, a number of companies are now private branding the unit and rave about how advanced its design is without a single mention of Harman. What really cracks me/my team up is that they come and present the unit to us as if they invented it only to hear us say, "hmmm... isn't this the you know what amp?" They grin and say yes.

I actually think the above situations are worse than what Sim has done where they have gone in there and redesigned parts of the system. Should it raise consumer eyebrows? Of course. But there are thousands of such examples. Most AV gear you see here is not designed by the companies even if it is their own. The chip company gives them the design. They may or may not make any changes to it.
post #89 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

I have all sorts of gear from cheapo to high end, consumer to pro audio, although nothing ultra high end from either category. What am I supposed to think about?.

I'll pass. It's already been explained.
Edited by Jinjuku - 11/17/13 at 8:01am
post #90 of 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Hi Chu. I appreciate your points and reaction. I think where we differ is that what they have done is just an example of things folks do behind the scenes in this industry. As I say, we are "learning how the sausage is made" and then don't like to eat it anymore smile.gif. CE business is full of such things. It simply is the case that we don't know about it so the one case that is publicized gets a lot of attention among end users.

Let me give you an example of how the sausage is made. When the blu-ray format first came out, they created a pavilion at CES and brought products from all of their member companies. I had a lot of work to do at the show so did not get to see this until the last few hours of the show. As anyone who has gone to the show knows, folks from the companies putting up this show start to leave and only a skeleton crew is there at the end of the show. So I walk in and I see this massive pavilion with no one there. In one area I see half a dozen manufacture Blu-ray players and corresponding wall of displays showing their blu-ray images. Or so one would think. I knew the industry inside and out and could not fathom how so many of them had managed to get a working product out. I was curious as to which disc they were playing so I hit the eject button. To may amazement, the drawer opened but the picture kept playing!!! I look around and still see nobody around. I proceed to hit the eject button in a player after player with the same experience. All the videos were fake and were probably being played by a hidden hard disk HD server and not blu-ray. I close the tray and see that when one hits play, the LEDs start to act as if it is playing so someone had actually cooked the machine to pretend it was playing something where it clearly had not.

In another example around the same time, one of our guys in Singapore went to the showroom of one of these companies proudly showing a working Blu-ray player. He goes behind the player and sees that the video cable is disconnected! He took a picture and email it to me which I post here.

In another example, I had an executive meeting with one of the top three-Japanese brands. They wanted to impress me so they showed me some of the research. In one case, they brought out a boombox that had a very fancy interface for music (this is in early 2000s so having something that advanced was unheard of). They go through the full demo and I can't figure out how they could have implemented all of that to fit in the cost and price point boombox. When the meeting disbanded I pulled one of their people and asked them what silicon they were using. He quietly tells me that what I was seeing was a Linux PC doing everything and the boombox was a dummy thing!!!

Another example: Lexicon put out this wonderful multi-channel amp called DD-8 a couple of years ago. It gives you 8 channels of amplification in a 1 RU chassis. The reason they could make it so small is due to work they did with TI to develop the core of their class I amplification in a single chip. That development was not funded by the small volumes of such amps. But rather, it was designed for the 2+ billion dollar Harman does in automotive business. There, having least amount of weight and power consumption is very important. Since volume of cars runs in tens of millions if not hundreds, TI not only worked with Harman on this but actually co-designed new silicon for it. Anyway, a number of companies are now private branding the unit and rave about how advanced its design is without a single mention of Harman. What really cracks me/my team up is that they come and present the unit to us as if they invented it only to hear us say, "hmmm... isn't this the you know what amp?" They grin and say yes.

I actually think the above situations are worse than what Sim has done where they have gone in there and redesigned parts of the system. Should it raise consumer eyebrows? Of course. But there are thousands of such examples. Most AV gear you see here is not designed by the companies even if it is their own. The chip company gives them the design. They may or may not make any changes to it.

What you are saying is that the high end audio industry is a sham for the most part. I think we audiophile converts learned that quite a while ago. It is plain old disreputable.
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