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taking RAW Video Using the Black Magic Pocket Camera - Page 3

post #61 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Come on! Insulting comments don't add anything to any topic. I'm sure you had a wonderful set of science teachers that told you not to "think that" things are what they are, but to prove things with data and algorithms. Hopefully you will also consider what your parents may have taught you about how using good manners can enhance communication.

If you're getting anything out of these discussions, please consider being a little more pleasant. Of course, you don't have to be, but it would be nice.

That's funny. I don't see his comments since he's on my ignore list (a nice feature of AVS).

As you've seen Bill, I think there's something going on with compatibility with the audio and for me at least, with the video (except for the Krishna clips). I'd be surprised if it's my setup since I've never had any issues with any files on my Samsung & Panasonic BD player until now. Couple that with the fact that the Krishna clips played perfectly, but the stuttering & audio dropouts were repeatable both before & after the Krishna clips, and it does seem something is up.

I'm just curious if Mark can shed some light on why the Krishna clips were fine. I'm also curious Bill if you too had no problems on your setup with those same clips. BTW, like you, no issues on the computer.
post #62 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

If that's really you, you're just a kid!
post #63 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I'm just curious if Mark can shed some light on why the Krishna clips were fine. I'm also curious Bill if you too had no problems on your setup with those same clips. BTW, like you, no issues on the computer.
I didn't put the first clips on my BD Player/Thumb Drive/TV setup. I'll go back and try it.
On edit: The sound test clip seems to be on YouTube and I can't transfer it to my computer like the final on Vimeo!
Edited by bsprague - 11/19/13 at 5:09pm
post #64 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

If that's really you, you're just a kid!

Thats not me. And LOL im not as old as this dude. He is like 30+. Im on my early 20's
post #65 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedest View Post

Thats not me. And LOL im not as old as this dude. He is like 30+. Im on my early 20's
That explains everything! FWIW, there was an article in National Geographic about a year ago about how the brain matures (grows up). They used brain scans to document theories suggesting the last thing to develop in a child is "good judgment" that comes in the mid 20's.

The auto insurance industry for as long as I can remember charge extra for men under 25. Infantry and fighter pilots are recruited from the under 25 group. As men pass 25 they seen to begin to avoid having getting married and having children. The primary market for performance motorcycles is under 25.

Both of my sons got to see the inside of a jail before they were 25, but not since. I nearly killed myself in a car a few times before I was 25, but not since.

So, if you are under 25, I'll consider forgiving you for your bad behavior. biggrin.gif
Edited by bsprague - 11/19/13 at 5:36pm
post #66 of 109
Yep. According to the WHO, we are actually teenagers until 24yo biggrin.gif

I have lots os testosterone going on!

Im not a big fan of motorcycles, but cars are my main passion, and I have some pretty toys biggrin.gif

I have never made things like going to the jail or getting into car accidents. I do have graduated in one of the best med schools in my country, and although im still very young I already have 2 post graduations biggrin.gif

My impatience with people that claim things based only on what they think came from the demanding training of my professors. They are even worse than me biggrin.gif

You are talking about the disadvantages of being young, but...



biggrin.gif

Just kidding. I like you Bill. Even if you try to fight with me, I will still like you. I have already created an image of you: a nice cool old dude with lots of great stories biggrin.gif
post #67 of 109
So a very interesting test this evening. I showed the downloaded file of Mark's RAW clips on our 64" plasma to my wife, saying only "I want you to watch something and tell me what you think". She has no clue whatsoever about this camera or any discussion I've had regarding it. Our discussions here would absolutely bore her to death. She also knows I'm looking for another camera, but beyond that has no idea what it is, the formats involved or anything else. She's just accepted I'm getting a new camera, whatever it is. The only thing I will say is she has a good eye for color and very much enjoys photography.

I played the clips through and her first comment as the clips were playing was "Is the motion not as smooth as yours?". I didn't want to say anything to influence her and I told her to just continue to comment and I'd tell her my thoughts after the clips had played through.

Her second comment was "Is this a different format than your camera?". I was kind of stunned by that comment and couldn't resist asking her to elaborate on what she meant. She paused for a bit as she continued to watch and said "I don't know, it just doesn't look as 'live' or real as your cameras". I decided at that point to respond and asked her "Are you saying it looks more like film?". She said 'maybe that's it, but I like how yours looks better, your camera just looks more real'.

It was fascinating to me that without mentioning a single word about the camera, the format or anything else, she verbalized my thoughts precisely. What was interesting too was she never mentioned anything about color until I questioned her. I asked her if she had any thoughts about which color rendition looked more like the 'real world' or which she found more appealing. She said "yours, that's what I felt from the beginning".

So part of this (not the color) I suspect is due to 30p vs 60p as well as one's preference for a more 'filmic' look or a more 'live' look.

Regardless, I thought I'd share this little experiment because I did find it fascinating.

So we can discuss theory, charts & graphs all we want, but ultimately it's the image on the screen that either really appeals to us or not. It also brings to mind a conversation I had with my dad that I can recall as if it happened yesterday. When I was going for my Masters degree, I was discussing a professor's thoughts on the job market with my father, who possessed several degrees in chemical engineering and was not a stranger to the university environment. The professor's thoughts and the actual job market I was observing seemed to clash. My father said something to me I never forgot and the more I've experienced the real world, the more I knew how true what he said was. His simple response was "There are few people who know less about the real world than college professors". I've repeated this to my son who is now 25 and he too is beginning to see how true this is. smile.gif
Edited by Ken Ross - 11/19/13 at 7:00pm
post #68 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

..... "There are few people who know less about the real world than college professors". I've repeated this to my son who is now 25 and he too is beginning to see how true this is. smile.gif
My best friend in college barely graduated. The odds were so against him that there was a standing ovation as he received his diploma. It was lead by the department head in his chosen major subject. He went on to run a private company for decades that employs about 75 people. He is truly smart.

His father's advice to him as he started college was to "Never let your studies get in the way of your education." I passed that on to my son who has become a brilliant executive in the commercial construction industry.

To the the point of the thread, "I think that" using technology to produce pleasing images is art, not science. More specifically, my thrill watching this thread was seeing Mark apply the opportunities of RAW processing to his art. My view is, that up to this point, he was thoroughly dedicated to lossless processing. He added a bucket load of technique and capability to his tool set by looking beyond that.

What's next?
Edited by bsprague - 11/19/13 at 8:27pm
post #69 of 109
The color in that video is definitely too intense. Skin tones are too orange, as if the people have been spraying fake tan on themselves. Contrast is too high. You could probably correct that though.

The image stabilization in those scenes does not appear to be particularly effective, the camera seems to be vibrating. That is a bigger problem. I think you will need a tripod if you are going to use that lens.
post #70 of 109
Off topic but i wish this was all i had to worry about,Another external drive with almost 2TB of unedited AVCHD and hundreds of stills wont open,this has happened before to me and i had to have the material transfered to another drive,[this one]more expense,i never had a VHS tape fail.
It could be worse though thedest it could have been full of BMPC clips)I know a lot say always back up on 2 drives but i have all the edited video on another drive,there is a limit to expense.
Regarding the raw test,it is too saturated for my personal taste,and quality video would look better on a tripod for tests like that IMO but if hand holding is part of the camera test thats how it is.
Back to mourning for me now.
Edited by flintyplus - 11/20/13 at 1:37am
post #71 of 109
Thread Starter 
Blackmagic Camera v1.5.1 has just been released.

This is just a quick update to address an issue with the weird motion blur observed when shooting at 180º shutter angle in 23.98 and 24 fps on the Pocket Cinema Camera.
post #72 of 109
Had to share this. Hollywood Producer/Director Matt Sconce shot this family video at the San Diego beach in RAW on the BMPCC - beautifully, shot, graded and edited:

BMPCC first outing - The EPIC beauty of San Diego:


Matt shares his post production process in the comments section:
Quote:
My post process helped the detail to pop. I imported into After Effects which opened Adobe Camera Raw tool. I adjusted to get the most Dynamic range, pulling up shadows and pulling down highlights as well as adjusting the exposure down since I Exposed to the right to get all shadow detail and highlight detail. It added the slight sharpening ACR does, and then I added an adjustment layer in AE with an Unsharp Mask. My last step if needed was a minor noise reduction with the Neat Video plugin. I put each video one after the next in AE, then exported one video clip from each location (With all the files) to Uncompressed AVI and edited those large files

Compared to what he is used to from feature films, this is probably pretty simple smile.gif

The BMPCC may turn out to be a very popular home movie camera in Hollywood.
Edited by brunerww - 12/9/13 at 4:43am
post #73 of 109
Lol...for a Hollywood "director" his film making skills leave something to be desired smile.gif
post #74 of 109
I'll spare my thought about the artistic aspects of the above video but what is obvious is the graded color cast among many of the shots in the video is quite inconsistent.
post #75 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by P&Struefan View Post

I'll spare my thought about the artistic aspects of the above video but what is obvious is the graded color cast among many of the shots in the video is quite inconsistent.

Do you think what you just said is not a statement about the "artistic aspects" of the video? Changing color casts is a common technique in film-making, as color casts are used to reinforce the different emotions across scenes. "Inconsistent" would apply if happy scenes, for example, had dark, colorless casts or had different casts and/or somber scenes were bright and colorful. Or maybe the director is making an ironic statement? This is not "camcorder" video anymore.
post #76 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

This is not "camcorder" video anymore.

Exactly.
Edited by brunerww - 12/10/13 at 3:46am
post #77 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

This is not "camcorder" video anymore.

And therein lies the difference. To some that's a plus, to others that's a minus.

Artistic statement or not, it bugs me when I see green skies and unearthly water colors that just pull me from reality. Yes, some will say that's precisely what it's intended to do, but once drawn from reality, then what? I'm still left with green skies and weird color water that just leaves me thinking, 'weird'. Maybe it's me.

In fact I've mentioned for a long time, in several unrelated threads, how it drives me nuts how Hollywood insists on stylizing the life out of movies. It's become such a cliche IMO. Is this the only way left for movie makers to evoke emotion?

To me it's incredibly refreshing when I see a movie that actually has recognizeable colors. Look, blue skies, neutral colors without amber, blue or green haze! Fantastic! And guess what? They can still draw an audience to tears, scare the hell out of them or bring them to the edge of their seats. Of course I think there's a place for this kind of stylized emotion, but man oh man, it's become so overdone...and now we've got everyone doing it with their pocket cams. Of course I believe that most aren't doing it intentionally, but rather because they just can't get natural looking colors from their raw footage.

This is what makes camcorder footage or any neutral camera acquisition so appealing to me. It's back to reality.

Forgive me for the rant, as I said, it's probably just me. The scenes in the video above that I appreciated the most, were those that looked natural. Nature doesn't need 'retouching' as far as I'm concerned. smile.gif
post #78 of 109
I just pointed out the obvious but I agree with Mark on the general purpose of grading. I presume the poster of the video likes it that way. To me it just doesn't look right as opposed to it being different from camcorder video. IMHO it's good we're able to argue about this as I believe we saw more or less the same thing on our properly calibrated display devices or TVs. If someone, well this someone could be the majority of viewers of this video, is watching this on his pentile OLED Samsung or Nokia cell phone, so widely used and liked by many people for their exaggerately pumped up color, he wouldn't even know what's the fuss we are arguing about.
post #79 of 109
That video has very sharp clean footage with none of the M&A that invades my removable lens cameras footage without great care,the color was not to my taste though.
For me great content will always be no 1 over great PQ not that PQ is irrelevant.
post #80 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Do you think what you just said is not a statement about the "artistic aspects" of the video? Changing color casts is a common technique in film-making, as color casts are used to reinforce the different emotions across scenes. "Inconsistent" would apply if happy scenes, for example, had dark, colorless casts or had different casts and/or somber scenes were bright and colorful. Or maybe the director is making an ironic statement? This is not "camcorder" video anymore.

The problem with that video is that it is a jumble of image concepts changing every few seconds that has no cohesiveness. The color cast varies wildly form one shot to another. Tons of stuff that is not particularly well lit or shot. It looks more like a bunch of images stuck together than a movie. Is not just that it is jumbled, but clips that clearly belong together are scattered all over the place. There is no story at all in the video.

Take a look at the clip at ~1:45 - there is a huge grey blurry band across the screen. Did he not notice this? Presumably it is some sort of a railing in the foreground, who knows, but surely a "director" would know enough to leave that on the cutting room floor. At 1:53 there are two scenes of out of focus sunlight waves with a very dark background. And that made the cut??
post #81 of 109
It's a home movie shot and edited in RAW with a new camera from someone who shoots movies for a living.

For that reason, it is interesting for what it doesn't have (that we see in most BMPCC home movies):

- nearly unwatchable shaky handheld work
- brownish, sepia colored grade
- either no attempt at editing, or unpaced cuts

My first attempt with this camera suffered from two of the three. And I still haven't figured RAW out.

For what it is, I stick with my original assessment - beautifully shot, graded and edited.

Cheers,

Bill
post #82 of 109
Thread Starter 
BMPCC in China

I can't upload videos, but I can upload frame grabs. The BMPCC is fine travel camera, and takes video where the lighting is challenging.

Here are four frame grabs from today, some of which are horrific lighting situations, and some to show - color!






Over 50GB's shot today in a couple of hours (18 minutes of video and 1.2 batteries), dumped onto the Nexto DI 500GB HD.
Edited by markr041 - 12/11/13 at 6:12am
post #83 of 109
Mark,

I had no idea you are in the Big Bad City (locals all it Mordor)... We should meet for coffee one day:) Enjoy your stay in Shanghai!

YLK
post #84 of 109
Thanks for posting Mark. Your frame grabs remind me of what I enjoy about RAW still photos and Lightroom processing. Specifically, there is detail where you don't expect it.

Bill

PS: The news has recently said the air quality is a little rough there. Hope you're doing OK.
post #85 of 109
Thread Starter 
I have escaped from the air in Shanghai and Beijing (where I was behind the scenes for a movie shoot), and back in Hong Kong, BMPCC and ancillary equipment intact. The frame grabs are stunning, we will have to wait to see how they can form a video.











post #86 of 109
Welcome back. Nice photos. Thanks! But be careful. This RAW business and frame grabs may turn you into a stills photographer. Next you'll be playing with HDR or Topaz Adjust.

Bill
post #87 of 109
I got a promotional email from Adobe to tempt me to sign on for the $50 a month Creative Cloud. It says video is improved with, "Fluid video workflows and more brilliant visuals. Save time from script to screen with ultra-efficient editing features and powerful media management tools — including new Direct Link integration between Adobe Premiere Pro CC and SpeedGrade CC, expanded native support for RAW, Ultra HD, 4K and higher resolution content, and Mask Tracker in Adobe After Effects CC."

(I highlighted the "expanded native support for RAW")

If Adobe is moving toward RAW video editing, everyone else will too. It will get easier.
Edited by bsprague - 12/18/13 at 11:57am
post #88 of 109
Thread Starter 
It would be great to have alternative video editors that ingested RAW.dng files and had Lightroom controls. $50 a month seems steep, though. I wonder if the RAW is cinema RAW.

The frame grabs I posted, btw, are examples where the high dynamic range is needed, and where there is color. I still am amazed at the awful (not awsum) color "'grading" I see from the video produced from BM cameras, giving the impression that the cameras deliver bad color or that grading is difficult (or that my aesthetics are out of touch).







The frame grabs appear to be highly compressed when uploaded, so it is not possible to fully appreciate the high resolution of the frames.
post #89 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

... I still am amazed at the awful (not awsum) color "'grading" I see from the video produced from BM cameras, giving the impression that the cameras deliver bad color or that grading is difficult (or that my aesthetics are out of touch)....
Although I pretend to be a video student here from time to time (grin), I've spent more time the last 12 months learning RAW and HDR photography. In both cases there are a variety of ways to get the job done, including popular accessory plug-ins from like what Topaz and NIK make. In skilled hand, the "art" produced can be almost "awsum". More frequently, it is badly over done or taken to extremes for no other reason than it can be.
post #90 of 109
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Although I pretend to be a video student here from time to time (grin), I've spent more time the last 12 months learning RAW and HDR photography. In both cases there are a variety of ways to get the job done, including popular accessory plug-ins from like what Topaz and NIK make. In skilled hand, the "art" produced can be almost "awsum". More frequently, it is badly over done or taken to extremes for no other reason than it can be.

Then you are ready for RAW video! - it's the same thing, but with motion and sound. You've already got MFT lenses (btw, the 100-300mm lens becomes 300-900mm on the BMPCC so you will have frames of a lioness' blinking eye). And the individual frames are as good as if not better than any stills from DSLRs, just less pixels (and 4K RAW is just around the corner).

Interestingly, on the BMPC forums people have downloaded the same original clip from the new 4K BMPC and are providing their own grades of the original. The scenes are basically tourist shots of buildings and people walking around. The graded versions are truly terrible, and there is no pretense of art; it's clearly just incompetence or they have eyesight deficiencies.
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