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All Digital HT Rebuild - DIY Trinnov - Page 3

post #61 of 87
Both of those are software companies ... rarely do they employ hardware electrical engineers. Not really a fair comparison, like saying my family doctor's practice is successful and he isn't an engineer.
post #62 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Both of those are software companies ... rarely do they employ hardware electrical engineers. Not really a fair comparison, like saying my family doctor's practice is successful and he isn't an engineer.

Software development is an engineering discipline. Gates wrote code. Apple was a hardware platform with OS - hardcore engineering. Steve Wozniak was a brilliant engineer - college dropout. No academic credentials.
post #63 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were both college dropouts with no academic credentials.

Yes they are. And both have openly affirmed that countless times. They don't hide behind BS claims of covert military operations jobs that cannot be traced.

They also developed products that are without question household names. While there are both Apple and Windows haters, nobody ever questioned their products as snake oil. There is no doubt that both Windows and Apple are viable systems with millions of proven installations.

The fact that so much controversy surrounds Shunyata and their competitors like JPS Labs is grounds enough that something is not right here. I don't see that with Apple or Microsoft.

You fail to see the difference in accomplishments between the two computer giant founders and the snooty cable makers. No power cord vendor has ever generated any proof of their claims.

Jobs, Gates, and many other non-degreed engineers have in fact proven themselves and earned the respect of the engineering community. Your poster boys have not.
post #64 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Software development is an engineering discipline. Gates wrote code. Apple was a hardware platform with OS - hardcore engineering. Steve Wozniak was a brilliant engineer - college dropout. No academic credentials.

Yes they wrote the founding software back when the PC was a toy. Do either of them practice software engineering today? I'll be willing to bet both Gates and Jobs gave up on software coding in the early 1980s. Why should they. Even then once the PC took hold they could hire top engineering grads to do it for them.

And let's not forget the Therac 25. This is a text book case that is used in software engineering study which outlines what can happen if a hacker writes a realtime life critical application. Jobs and Gates stepped aside at the right time. They focused their talent on marketing not engineering.
post #65 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

The fact that so much controversy surrounds Shunyata and their competitors like JPS Labs is grounds enough that something is not right here.

The only controversy is among folks that categorically dismiss the possibility Power cables actually work, and that are too lazy or blaze to bother trying them. Among audiophiles that try them there is no such controversy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

....I don't see that with Apple or Microsoft.

Look harder. Many people will say Windows is apiece of crap software, and MS sucks in general. Experiencing about 10 Powerpoint crashes a day I tend to agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

No power cord vendor has ever generated any proof of their claims.

There is no proof Halle Berry is hotter than Madeleine Albright, yet there is universal consensus on the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Jobs, Gates, and many other non-degreed engineers have in fact proven themselves and earned the respect of the engineering community......

As I said, Gates has earned the disdain of many a software engineer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

......Your poster boys have not.

My poster boys hopefully have better things to do that trying to earn the respect of the engineering community. Improving their cables and other power products comes to mind.
post #66 of 87
Thread Starter 
All I can say is you are in the minority. Want to take this topic over to the Audio forum? You have been eaten alive there before on this and similar cable issues.

It's still very simple. Only audiophiles with non technical backgrounds find these cable myths to be true. Nobody else in the entire electronics industry buys into this stuff. It's only relevant in high end CONSUMER audio. Now in today's state of technology anyone who believes these claims by audiophiles are only relevant to high end audio is ignorant of technology in general. That's not meant to be critical, many people could care less how stuff works. But to question the recognized authorities in the matter, that is the electrical engineering community, is just blind arrogance.

Shunyata like all esoteric cable companies is a tiny niche operation with few supporters. What keeps them alive is the outrageous price they can charge. If there were any substance to their claims, they would have been bought out long ago by a major electronics concern. Remember this audiophile cable crap has been around since the early 1980s yet these companies remain obscure little shops. In these 30 plus years we still do not have a shred of accredited proof these claims are valid. Not a shred! It's true there have been many misguided attempts by these charlatans such as the DTCD test but without exception they are debunked by the electrical engineering community. Again, in 35 years don't you think something would have been verified by now if there was any scientific merit?
post #67 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

All I can say is you are in the minority. Want to take this topic over to the Audio forum? You have been eaten alive there before on this and similar cable issues.

I hate to break it to you but I have no idea what "the audio forum" is, and have never posted anything there. Please point me to anyone posting under my name on "the audio forum".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

It's still very simple. Only audiophiles with non technical backgrounds find these cable myths to be true. Nobody else in the entire electronics industry buys into this stuff. It's only relevant in high end CONSUMER audio.

Aftermarket power cables are used extensively in the pro-audio industry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

But to question the recognized authorities in the matter, that is the electrical engineering community, is just blind arrogance.

Not nearly as arrogant as categorically dismissing the consistent findings of swaths of users of these products as a delusion, strictly on theoretical technical ground, without bothering to listen for yourself.
post #68 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Aftermarket power cables are used extensively in the pro-audio industry.

I'm sure Glimmie will straighten you out on that, but I've got to ask:

Do you really think the last few feet of wire matter after the power has gone through miles of power lines and the Romex in your house?
post #69 of 87
or made it out a regulated supply ? Heck even a high end power amp these days will have a good regulator.
post #70 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

I hate to break it to you but I have no idea what "the audio forum" is, and have never posted anything there. Please point me to anyone posting under my name on "the audio forum".
You know, where ArnyK lives.
Quote:
Aftermarket power cables are used extensively in the pro-audio industry.

What the few tiny SCAD studios listed on the Shunyata site where he paid them? Show me some major players.
Quote:
Not nearly as arrogant as categorically dismissing the consistent findings of swaths of users of these products as a delusion, strictly on theoretical technical ground, without bothering to listen for yourself.

Listening is indeed a very important test with any audio component. But there is no sense in doing the final taste test when there is absolutely no scientific data to support it. You need to have a plausible idea to start with.
post #71 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

You know, where ArnyK lives.

Are you suggesting I'm posting as ArnyK on another forum? That is too funny. If you can proof that ridiculous claim (you're a man that believes in proof - not speculation) I'll donate you a Shunyata Anaconda powercable.
post #72 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I'm sure Glimmie will straighten you out on that, but I've got to ask:

Do you really think the last few feet of wire matter after the power has gone through miles of power lines and the Romex in your house?

Well Mr. Shunyata does have a good counter argument for this. He says that a filtered power cord is the last stage in the chain and the best place to apply a filter. I agree with that.

But then he further states his DTCD test is all about current delivery impulses and how good his cords are at delivering fast current. Never mind this is in the RF range so it's useless technology for 60hz Ac power - unless you want to couple RFI through. Then his cords are great for that. This is also where the in wall wiring comes into play. Any chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. So even if his cords did offer faster current delivery at 60hz, which they don't, it would make no difference because the current is constrained by the 100 feet of 12ga Romex back to the breaker panel.

His marketing text a plethora of engineering contradictions and engineering always is. But he emphasizes all the pluses of a particular area and pretends the minuses don't exist. This is a charlatan at his best.

The only thing Edorr continues to say is the cords sound great to him. I am sure they do after he paid $2000 or so each. But the published science by Shunyata is seriously flawed. This is a classic case of "better to let people think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and prove it". Shunyata didn't heed that betting that no EE would see it.
post #73 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Are you suggesting I'm posting as ArnyK on another forum? That is too funny. If you can proof that ridiculous claim (you're a man that believes in proof - not speculation) I'll donate you a Shunyata Anaconda powercable.

No, I'm talking about the "audio theory setup and chat" forum here. ArnyK is just one of the other EE's on this forum that has no time for these cable charlatans like Shunyata and JPS. I remember you getiing into cable discussions over there.
post #74 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

No, I'm talking about the "audio theory setup and chat" forum here. ArnyK is just one of the other EE's on this forum that has no time for these cable charlatans like Shunyata and JPS. I remember you getiing into cable discussions over there.

I hope your scientific credentials are better than your memory. I have never gotten into a discussing about cabling with ArnyK on any forum, or anyone else for that matter, give or take may be a very brief amicable exchange at some point (I don't remember). In fact, the only reason I got dragged into this one is because I only very recently found Shunyata cabling to be very effective in my system, so I took issue with your statements.
post #75 of 87
Well how is the project going?
post #76 of 87
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiles View Post

Well how is the project going?
Still debugging. Hardware issues are largely resolved. But I still have a long way to go with the REW side, mostly learning all the details of REW. I have two weeks off at Xmas and will be all alone biggrin.gif with the dogs for one of those weeks so I expect to make a lot of progress.
post #77 of 87
"Listening is indeed a very important test with any audio component. But there is no sense in doing the final taste test when there is absolutely no scientific data to support it. You need to have a plausible idea to start with."

I'd say the opposite actually. If you could reliably tell them apart from another cable (IOW they sound different) then people could go looking for the scientific reason of why they sound different.

But that just leads to the reality that the cable companies can't show any correctly performed *double blind* listening tests where *any* listeners can tell two cables apart. Be it a $2 power cable vs. a $5000 or so on.

That is why they resort to pseudo science and non blind opinion fluff to market them.

Shawn
post #78 of 87
The problem with that is the human mind is a powerful thing and can trick us into thinking anything we want it to. Ever notice believers in cables and power cords can hear the difference while us engineering type never seem able ?
post #79 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

The problem with that is the human mind is a powerful thing and can trick us into thinking anything we want it to. Ever notice believers in cables and power cords can hear the difference while us engineering type never seem able ?

Very true too. I inserted a new speaker cable yesterday and honest too God, a recording I have been listening to for over a decade that always sounded nice and spacious now sounds like am in a large cathedral. BUT I don't trust my perceptions one bit, and in the absence of a hubby willing to swap out cables behind a curtain, I have to live with the idea I may be deluding myself. It is killing me! (I'm dead serious here - not trying to be ironic). Just to be on the safe side, I'll probably keep the cable though smile.gif
post #80 of 87
This has been interesting conversation to say the least.

Personally, I can't wait until I am at the point of squeezing every ounce of performance out of my main system components to the point that I will then look at the power cables for those systems as suspect.

Everyone has a journey. I remember getting my first real subwoofer (M&K) back in the 90's and thought it could not get any better than that.

This DIY project is way above my head (Chemical Engineer), but I highly applaud you posting in such great detail that a "Charlatan" like me can follow along and pick up some knowledge. I am always blown away by the posters on this forum and the capability they have with pushing the limits. That is what keeps me coming back.

Brian
post #81 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post


Very true too. I inserted a new speaker cable yesterday and honest too God, a recording I have been listening to for over a decade that always sounded nice and spacious now sounds like am in a large cathedral. BUT I don't trust my perceptions one bit, and in the absence of a hubby willing to swap out cables behind a curtain, I have to live with the idea I may be deluding myself. It is killing me! (I'm dead serious here - not trying to be ironic). Just to be on the safe side, I'll probably keep the cable though smile.gif

 

I'm surprised you don't follow a route that is more likely to provide more resolution, i.e. moving away from passive crossovers to active...  Of course, then the cable count doubles or triples!  Oh well.

post #82 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Very true too. I inserted a new speaker cable yesterday and honest too God, a recording I have been listening to for over a decade that always sounded nice and spacious now sounds like am in a large cathedral. BUT I don't trust my perceptions one bit, and in the absence of a hubby willing to swap out cables behind a curtain, I have to live with the idea I may be deluding myself. It is killing me! (I'm dead serious here - not trying to be ironic). Just to be on the safe side, I'll probably keep the cable though smile.gif

If you get a chance, take a look at the cable comparison thread Mike Lavigne was involved in a few years ago. You may have read some of his posts here but in case you haven't the summary is that he is an audiophile with a really nice room and great gear. He was CONVINCED that the audible differences between cables were so great that it would be easy for him to identify the cables in a blind test in his own dedicated audio room. Well let's just say that he was gracious when eating crow.

Just pointing it out for your interest. I'm an "audiophile" too and spent time listening to and comparing cables. There was a time that I thought they made a small difference but that's exactly what it was - a small difference. Compared to the HUGE difference it made getting the Trinnov processor, an acoustically optimized room, proper positioning. Those things could easily be identified in blind testing, kept the objectivists and subjectivists happy, and make far more sense to me.

Hey Glimmie, I have to hand it to you - your arguments are clear, cogent, and concise. Good luck with the project.
post #83 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post

If you get a chance, take a look at the cable comparison thread Mike Lavigne was involved in a few years ago. You may have read some of his posts here but in case you haven't the summary is that he is an audiophile with a really nice room and great gear. He was CONVINCED that the audible differences between cables were so great that it would be easy for him to identify the cables in a blind test in his own dedicated audio room. Well let's just say that he was gracious when eating crow.

Just pointing it out for your interest. I'm an "audiophile" too and spent time listening to and comparing cables. There was a time that I thought they made a small difference but that's exactly what it was - a small difference. Compared to the HUGE difference it made getting the Trinnov processor, an acoustically optimized room, proper positioning. Those things could easily be identified in blind testing, kept the objectivists and subjectivists happy, and make far more sense to me.

Hey Glimmie, I have to hand it to you - your arguments are clear, cogent, and concise. Good luck with the project.

Ironically, I bought my speakers from Mike Lavigne. He did this test with the speakers I currently own - small world indeed. There are others that report picking out the best sounding cable every single time in double blind tests. As usual in audio - inconclusive results.

My only hedge with cabling is I always buy them at a price I can resell them for, so if one day I wake up realizing I have been kidding myself all along, I don't lose a penny.
post #84 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Ironically, I bought my speakers from Mike Lavigne. He did this test with the speakers I currently own - small world indeed. There are others that report picking out the best sounding cable every single time in double blind tests. As usual in audio - inconclusive results.

My only hedge with cabling is I always buy them at a price I can resell them for, so if one day I wake up realizing I have been kidding myself all along, I don't lose a penny.

lol, small world indeed. Good business model!
post #85 of 87
A suggestion to get off of the cable thing! This whole "discussion" is a sophistry. It really isn't about cables at all. Cables are merely the medium being used by crackpot audiophiles to promote their irrational hobby based beliefs. Personally, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this crap repeated over-and-over again!
post #86 of 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastl View Post

A suggestion to get off of the cable thing! This whole "discussion" is a sophistry. It really isn't about cables at all. Cables are merely the medium being used by crackpot audiophiles to promote their irrational hobby based beliefs. Personally, I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this crap repeated over-and-over again!

The best way to end discussion on a topic you are getting sick and tired of is to stop making statements that are likely to antagonize people on the other side of the argument and just let it go. Calling them "crackpot audiophiles to promote their irrational hobby based beliefs" and asserting that "It really isn't about cables at all." is more likely to illicit a reaction (from which I will refrain) than close discussion.
post #87 of 87
Obviously, you can't take a hint.
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